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Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#921 » by Mech Engineer » Sat Jan 7, 2017 2:56 pm

LordBaldric wrote:
RedBulls83 wrote:
LordBaldric wrote:A lot of the Wolves players are playing worse under Thibs this season. Frankly this season Thibs has been sort of a disaster.

Maybe it says more about the players than Thibs?

Might be that these players weren't ready or knew how hard they would have to work. I think not having vets doesn't help either.

Perhaps so, but whatever the cause so far the results have been poor. They were doing way better the last part of last season with Sam frickin' Mitchell at the helm.


Some young guys can put up great stats without a system and even win some regular season games. But, that's not a true indicator of anything concrete. Look at so many Rookie of the year guys like Tyreke Evans, MCW all put up good numbers but not in any system.

That said, Thibs must be see something in Wiggins if he is trusting him so much. He defines roles on a team and if he has given a big role to Wiggins, he thinks he can handle that in the future.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#922 » by sco » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:00 pm

Ice Man wrote:
ArizonaBullsFan wrote:I think people are highly overrating top-5 picks and forgetting that great players are found all throughout the draft.


Yep. Odds are pretty good with #1s, after that it's a crapshoot. The #2s from 1980-2009 who could anchor a team, a la Butler -

Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
LMA (not really, but I'm being nice)
Kevin Durant

That's 5 guys in 30 years, or 17%. Yeah sure, better than the #8 or #18 slots, but it's a gradually sliding scale. The NBA GMs are largely in consensus about what the draft order should be -- but that doesn't mean they actually know what the players will become. They very much don't.



#2 has been a tough spot over the years, I think 3 and 4 have been much better for some reason.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#923 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:02 pm

Ice Man wrote:
ArizonaBullsFan wrote:I think people are highly overrating top-5 picks and forgetting that great players are found all throughout the draft.


Yep. Odds are pretty good with #1s, after that it's a crapshoot. The #2s from 1980-2009 who could anchor a team, a la Butler -

Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
LMA (not really, but I'm being nice)
Kevin Durant

That's 5 guys in 30 years, or 17%. Yeah sure, better than the #8 or #18 slots, but it's a gradually sliding scale. The NBA GMs are largely in consensus about what the draft order should be -- but that doesn't mean they actually know what the players will become. They very much don't.


And even if you get the #1 pick, recent history shows you're likely not getting a generational talent either. Here are the #1 overall picks since Tim Duncan in 1997:

Michael Olawakandi
Elton Brand
Kenyon Martin
Kwame Brown
Yao Ming
LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut
Andrea Bargnani
Greg Oden
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Anthony Davis
Anthony Bennett
Andrew Wiggins
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben SImmons
---

How many of those players were legit #1 options on a championship team?

-LeBron? Absolutely.
-Orlando got to an NBA Finals with Dwight as the best player.
-Rose could've been, but we'll never know.

And that's it.

So let's say the Bulls tank for 3 years and in Year 4 they end up with a John Wall type player. Would anyone consider them to be in a better position to contend? I wouldn't. Wall is probably a Jimmy Butler-level player.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#924 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:09 pm

GimmeDat wrote:An improvement on what? Because the basis for considering trading him is that we're at a dead end with him.


And you're likely going to be at a dead end with a trio that's equivalent to our core from 2005-2008. That's the point. You trade Butler and you wasted so many years to get a nucleus that:

1. Doesn't project you as any better long-term.
2. Doesn't have a player better than Butler in it.

Look at a team like Orlando. Their core right now is Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Mario Hezonja and Nikola Vucevic. This is about what you can expect in a rebuild that doesn't produce the next LeBron or Durant.
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Re: RE: Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#925 » by BigUps » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:45 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:An improvement on what? Because the basis for considering trading him is that we're at a dead end with him.


And you're likely going to be at a dead end with a trio that's equivalent to our core from 2005-2008. That's the point. You trade Butler and you wasted so many years to get a nucleus that:

1. Doesn't project you as any better long-term.
2. Doesn't have a player better than Butler in it.

Look at a team like Orlando. Their core right now is Elfrid Payton, Aaron Gordon, Mario Hezonja and Nikola Vucevic. This is about what you can expect in a rebuild that doesn't produce the next LeBron or Durant.

Exactly. Red is speaking the truth.

So many hopeless romantics here. That is a little harsh, but the reality is Red's post has a much higher probability of happening than us landing a star in a trade of Jimmy.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#926 » by sco » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:55 pm

I wish I was a psychologist, I'm sure there is a technical term for the trading a known value of $100 for an unknown with an expected value less than $100, but with a low chance of being worth $1000. By definition, it's the same reason so many people play the lottery. I wonder if there is a high correlation between "blow it up" supporters and lottery players.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#927 » by Chitownbulls » Sat Jan 7, 2017 3:59 pm

Jimmy Butler to Lakers

BULLS Receive Julius Randle, DAngelo Russell and Brandon Ingram

Bron will be done in 2-3 years an these guys will be ready
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#928 » by coldfish » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:04 pm

sco wrote:I wish I was a psychologist, I'm sure there is a technical term for the trading a known value of $100 for an unknown with an expected value less than $100, but with a low chance of being worth $1000. By definition, it's the same reason so many people play the lottery. I wonder if there is a high correlation between "blow it up" supporters and lottery players.


I know that humans have difficulty processing large numbers and large odds correctly. Internally, people emotionally treat 100:1 odds the same as 1 billion: 1. We just don't have a good "feel" for big numbers because we don't encounter and process them. That's why objective statistical and mathematical analysis will help you with everything from finances to drafting.
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Re: RE: Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#929 » by Stratmaster » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:13 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Rerisen wrote:
Huh? Yeah *Wade* is old now that doesn't mean Butler is.

In 2006 wade had Shaq. How many teams today do you see salivating over iso midrange scorers and 320 pound scoring centers?


So its the league has changed argument. I don't buy it, Harden, Wade, MJ, all these guys still drew fouls in the post-season, and that remains valuable no matter if teams are shooting 50 threes a game.

SA goes ISO late with Kawhi more than they ever used to with the Big Three, and when push came to shove, Curry pulled shots out of his rear end to win GS the title in 2015.

We aren't going to build a team of musketeers where every shot is some brilliant executed system offense. You need a closer and guy who can just break his man down to get a bucket, you don't want to overdo that, but I don't think Jimmy does very often (Wade a little) but most of that would go away with a proper cast.


I am a big fan of the closer. You may have noticed a post I made after the last game where someone was complaining Doug didn't shoot in the 2nd half and i said at least in Q4 there is no reason he should have. When your best scorer is in the zone and unstoppable during crunch time you go back to him...over...and over... until he is no longer in that zone. Jimmy stayed in that zone until he hit the locker room. I had absolutely no problem with that.

I think Jimmy will overdo it at times, especially in Q2/Q3. Especially if he feels he hasn't taken enough shots by Q2. He sometimes forces a good number of shots. Some of that is trying to get fouls called and he is pretty good at selling those. Sometimes he throws up highly contested shots. Sometimes he gets caught in the middle and tries to pass out with the result being a last second shot for another player or a turnover. I agree, the "sometimes" I am talking about are minor flaws compared to Jimmy's talent and overall game. Those minor flaws get added to the flaws and issues others are having offensively. The team result is some really ugly offense at times.

Wade forces the issue even more than Jimmy sometimes. The thing that saves Wade a little there is that he does seem to have a better knack for finding other players when his hero ball breaks down. He often gets players easy baskets. Problem is at his age he converts on his attempts a lot less frequently than Jimmy.

We need more movement from McD and Niko. At times the reason there is no movement is because the offense has stopped. You can't really make cuts without getting in the way with a guy facing up and going one-on-one down the lane. Other times the offense stops because there seems to be no movement. If all they are going to do is plant McD in the corner to "spread the floor" for Wade or Jimmy they need to trade McD. That HAS to be purposeful because on the rare occasions that neither Wade nor Jimmy are in the lineup there is player movement. Who is asking for this? Hoiberg? Is he just tailoring his scheme to his players strengths or should they just fire him? Wade and Butler? Well, that would be a dicier situation for Fred. You can say "he needs to be strong enough to stand up to them", but we all know that isn't the way it works. If Wade and Butler aren't comfortable and you lose them you may as well just shut down the season, and we know that in the past both of their offensive games are pretty much the same and don't involve a lot of quick ball movement.

To me, Lopez and Taj were big positives offensively early on. Not so much as the season has gone on. They were getting easy buckets early. Not any more.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#930 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:20 pm

sco wrote:I wish I was a psychologist, I'm sure there is a technical term for the trading a known value of $100 for an unknown with an expected value less than $100, but with a low chance of being worth $1000. By definition, it's the same reason so many people play the lottery. I wonder if there is a high correlation between "blow it up" supporters and lottery players.


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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#931 » by Chitownbulls » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:24 pm

If you trade Jimmy to LA for Julius Randle DAngelo Russell and Brandon Ingram the Bulls did a great job. I would do the Boston trade as well....Jimmy for Chowder an the top 2 picks
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#932 » by boundbymusic » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:45 pm

Give me Smart and/or Crowder and the 2017 & 2018 Nets picks from Boston and I'm in.

You're getting 2 Top 3 picks, plus likely your own lotto picks as well (prob not making playoffs).


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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#933 » by biggestbullsfan » Sat Jan 7, 2017 4:50 pm

I dont think making a trade for Wiggins while we still have Fred as coach helps anyone. I dont think Fred is the type of coach Wiggins/Dunn needs to take that next step. They need a Thibs to push them.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#934 » by Bomba Navarro » Sat Jan 7, 2017 5:42 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#935 » by JordansBulls » Sat Jan 7, 2017 5:59 pm

Think of it this way. Reggie Miller was the best player on the Pacers for over a decade. They never traded him. How is Jimmy much different then him as a star? Same for Paul Pierce or Vince Carter. Jimmy is that level of player.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#936 » by biggestbullsfan » Sat Jan 7, 2017 6:01 pm

Bomba Navarro wrote:
Read on Twitter


I doubt they would shop him thru the season. But of course you listen to any potential deal. He isnt untouchable. Only about 5 of those around the league. Bron, Curry, KD, Westbrook, Harden. I think anyone else could be had for a price.
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Re: RE: Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#937 » by Ctownbulls » Sat Jan 7, 2017 6:03 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Think of it this way. Reggie Miller was the best player on the Pacers for over a decade. They never traded him. How is Jimmy much different then him as a star? Same for Paul Pierce or Vince Carter. Jimmy is that level of player.

Name me one team that had a Vince Carter/Reggie Miller level player that traded that player and turned those assets into a championship caliber team.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#938 » by Ctownbulls » Sat Jan 7, 2017 6:05 pm

Ctownbulls wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Think of it this way. Reggie Miller was the best player on the Pacers for over a decade. They never traded him. How is Jimmy much different then him as a star? Same for Paul Pierce or Vince Carter. Jimmy is that level of player.

Name me one team that had a Vince Carter/Reggie Miller level player that traded that player and turned those assets into a championship caliber team.

Also, Reggie Miller took indi to game 7 of the ECF against the Bulls and to the finals. That's pretty good. Remember, since 1980 only 10 teams (or so, doing that off the top of my head) have won it all. It's not that easy.
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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#939 » by MrSparkle » Sat Jan 7, 2017 6:06 pm

Taj/Niko/Rondo/Sac 1st/Chi 1st to DEN for Gallo, Chandler and Faried.

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Re: Butler trade rumor - PG: 24 - KC, FO rebuffed calls - asking price high 

Post#940 » by Jimako10 » Sat Jan 7, 2017 6:08 pm

Bomba Navarro wrote:
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Seems like a lot of teams are deciding whether to be buyers or seller at this point. Wonder what Gar is doing right now.......

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