Wendell Carter Jr - The Block Panther Edition

[Shy Gorgeous-Al]

WCJ has a good vertical but he's not very explosive when contested under the basket. He can catch and throw down lobs no problem when he has a running start. This is why some people say he doesn't have 'elite' athleticism. He's very athletic in some ways but not in others

I don't like to say it very much because reach is not the end all be all, but an an inch on two of standing reach would have been perfect for him.

[coldfish]

I actually did and it didn't show up at all.

I googled it too and it didn't come up. That's why I didn't link it. No big deal.

I agree that he doesn't show that in games. My point was that if this was some random person from a small school, people would be hyping that link to all hell. The fact that many people have seen him play many games and know that he doesn't play like that, kills it. You are kind of making my point.

As I noted before, I get the question marks around WCJ. I just think that the other people in the draft also have question marks. Like Bamba. That guy was getting mad hype and I personally see rather high bust potential with him.

Coldfish I do have a question for you but let me first state that Bamba and JJJ are both more athletic, but do you think because Carter is more fundamentally advanced that he doesn't try to get by with pure athleticism only?

I don't really have a good answer for that. Its funny if you watch his tape, he jumps higher on his post moves than on dunks. I will say this though, he isn't a quick jumper. He needs to gather himself which frequently he doesn't have time to do.

[Leslie Forman]

The problem with all this talk that this frontcourt can be "good enough" defensively is already a bad sign if your goal is to actually win titles.

You straight up do not win titles without at least one excellent defending big man playing major minutes.

"Good enough" wouldn't describe Carter defensively, as if he's barely clearing the bar. He's a good overall defender and is far ahead for a 19-year-old center on instincts, awareness, rotations and positioning. He has the potential to make all-defense teams. It's really unlikely that his defense will prevent a team from contending.

His technique or mobility in space is really the only question. And, when you consider how far ahead he is already in addition to age, there's a lot to suggest he can improve it.

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The only way he is an All-Defense center is if he has some Marc Gasol-like genius-level defensive IQ. Which, who knows, he might have. But he sure has hell hasn't shown it yet and the likelihood of any center having that is a ridiculously rare thing to bank on.

He's basically going to have to be Marc Gasol, really. On offense and defense.

[coldfish]

The problem with all this talk that this frontcourt can be "good enough" defensively is already a bad sign if your goal is to actually win titles.

You straight up do not win titles without at least one excellent defending big man playing major minutes.

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

The Bulls don't have that player. Only a few players in this draft even have a shot at that level of play and I would put less than 50/50 odds on any of them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

Chicago's shot at building a title winner by putting in the foundation at this year's draft was killed when they got to pick 7.

[JimmyJammer]

I actually think it is a disrespect to Carter to compare him to Horford. If you look at their college career trajectory, you'll get the idea. As a freshman, Horford was averaging about 6ppg and less than 7rebs and his perimeter skills and 3pt shot were non-existent. The only stats of Horford that compare to Carter's freshman season is his junior year, and there was not even any 3pt shot to speak of either. So technically, Carter was doing at 18-19 what Horford was doing at 21 years of age. Carter should be compared to guys like Webber and Blake Griffin.

[Leslie Forman]

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

Well it's funny you mention Detroit, because you look at their frontcourt and what did they have? Two absolutely elite defenders. Only one of them was actually even competent on offense.

So one could argue that you'd actually have a better shot at building a title winner with, say, a Jaren Jackson/Bam Adebayo-type of frontcourt. Just load up on good but not superstar perimeter players and that might work like it did for them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

This has been what I wished they had done and I know they won't. They simply don't plan like that and it's why frankly I wish they had just kept Jimmy Butler because that's basically what this team is on the road to again anyways.

[Dresden]

The problem with all this talk that this frontcourt can be "good enough" defensively is already a bad sign if your goal is to actually win titles.

You straight up do not win titles without at least one excellent defending big man playing major minutes.

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

The Bulls don't have that player. Only a few players in this draft even have a shot at that level of play and I would put less than 50/50 odds on any of them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

Chicago's shot at building a title winner by putting in the foundation at this year's draft was killed when they got to pick 7.

Especially true in this era of super teams. GS may have the best shooter of all time on it's squad, plus the best sf of all time. Plus two other all-stars, one of which is a DPOY candidate year in and year out.

Houston was the second best team, and they had the MPV this year, plus an all-star caliber pg, plus a top notch center. Not sure they had anyone who will be considered one of the greatest of all time, but Harden and Paul will most likely be in the HOF.

Basketball still often comes down to a game of one on one. No one could guard Harden one on one. No one could guard Durant. No one could guard Lebron. And now teams spread the floor so if you double, they make you pay with 3 pt shooters.

But you still need that guy who is unstoppable one on one.

[Red Larrivee]

The only way he is an All-Defense center is if he has some Marc Gasol-like genius-level defensive IQ. Which, who knows, he might have. But he sure has hell hasn't shown it yet and the likelihood of any center having that is a ridiculously rare thing to bank on.

He's basically going to have to be Marc Gasol, really. On offense and defense.

In terms of BBIQ for a center, Carter has shown a lot towards becoming a smart defender. It could be Horford or Gasol level one day. He's far ahead in this category than your typical 19-year-old. I don't think it's a stretch to bank on a smart defender becoming a smarter defender over time. You look at players like Luol Deng and Joakim Noah who entered the league in ahead of that curve with the necessary intangibles and they both got better.

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[Dresden]

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

Well it's funny you mention Detroit, because you look at their frontcourt and what did they have? Two absolutely elite defenders. Only one of them was actually even competent on offense.

So one could argue that you'd actually have a better shot at building a title winner with, say, a Jaren Jackson/Bam Adebayo-type of frontcourt. Just load up on good but not superstar perimeter players and that might work like it did for them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

This has been what I wished they had done and I know they won't. They simply don't plan like that and it's why frankly I wish they had just kept Jimmy Butler because that's basically what this team is on the road to again anyways.

Much different era though. I don't know if Ben Wallace could play in today's era and be as effective. Scoring is a much bigger part of the game now than it was then. Rasheed Wallace was perfect for today's game- he could shoot from deep and space the floor and was touch to match up with.

Don't downplay Detroit's wings/backcourt either. Chauncey was an all-star level talent, as was Rip, and their small forward, I"m blanking on his name, was also very versatile- he could defend, he could handle the ball, he could score, he could rebound. All three were above average.

[Dresden]

I don't think Gasol has either a 7'4" wingspan or a 39" vertical. Carter is a much more fluid athlete.

[Leslie Forman]

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

Well it's funny you mention Detroit, because you look at their frontcourt and what did they have? Two absolutely elite defenders. Only one of them was actually even competent on offense.

So one could argue that you'd actually have a better shot at building a title winner with, say, a Jaren Jackson/Bam Adebayo-type of frontcourt. Just load up on good but not superstar perimeter players and that might work like it did for them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

This has been what I wished they had done and I know they won't. They simply don't plan like that and it's why frankly I wish they had just kept Jimmy Butler because that's basically what this team is on the road to again anyways.

Much different era though. I don't know if Ben Wallace could play in today's era and be as effective. Scoring is a much bigger part of the game now than it was then. Rasheed Wallace was perfect for today's game- he could shoot from deep and space the floor and was touch to match up with.

Don't downplay Detroit's wings/backcourt either. Chauncey was an all-star level talent, as was Rip, and their small forward, I"m blanking on his name, was also very versatile- he could defend, he could handle the ball, he could score, he could rebound. All three were above average.

I mean you're kinda making my point for me here, you literally can't even remember Tayshaun Prince's name.

My point is that it's a lot easier to find those guys than it is a LeBron or Curry or Dirk. If you are going to build a non-superstar title contender, it absolutely needs to be defense-focused, to an absolutely extreme level.

[bigworld2017]

I tend to agree. I like the picks and the direction of the franchise, but as long as they don't do something stupid in FA, I think the Bulls will miss the playoffs and get another lottery pick.

I disagree. If LeBron goes to the West I think we end up somewhere between the 5th and 7th Seed in the East. If we were in the West, I agree, we'd be a long way off from the playoffs. In the East Boston and Philly are locks. So is Toronto and Indy. After that is a dog fight between the consistently middle of the pack teams like Washington and Miami and some up an comers like the Bulls. We won't have the best starting 5, but our bench is going to be pretty strong, and it will get stronger as the rookies gain experience and confidence. Lauri has already bulked up a little which should help his inside game and his rebounding. Fred and GarPax are not going to be trying to lose this year. The draft lottery rules are changing to make all out tanking less of an attraction to bad teams. It is fortunate that there are 8-10 good wing prospects in next year's draft. If Lavine doesn't work out or if Huthinson disappoints we can add one next year. And either in 2020 or 2021 there will be a very interesting draft in the first year they allow High Schoolers to be drafted. That will combine two year's worth of elite prospects into one draft. We should try to accumulate picks, even 2nd rounders for when that double draft come down. He can stock up for the Windy City Bulls.

[BadWolf]

Read on Twitter

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247sports.com/college/duke/Bolt/Duke-Blue-Devils-Basketball-Wendell-Carter-vertical-leap-70388030/Amp/

So what you’re saying is there’s definitely is a video

If I had to go back in time, I would say Wendell Carter's game reminds me of Chris Webber, with 39" vertical, great passing skills, tenacious rebounding, inside and outside game, shot blocking ability and suspect perimeter D. So, I am changing the narrative with respect to whom his game compares to. Yes, he is the new Chris Webber.

What about Bosh?

[TheFinishSniper]

I don't think Gasol has either a 7'4" wingspan or a 39" vertical. Carter is a much more fluid athlete.

Gasol was once pretty great athlete. Still can't believe Bulls didnt get flak for drafting Tyson over Pau. But we get flak drafting Tyrus over Aldridge.

[coldfish]

Well, let's just go all the way here. If your goal is to win titles, you have to have one of the greatest players of all time on your roster. Maybe you can eke out one or two like Detroit or Dallas but for the most part, unless you have Kobe, MJ, Bird, Duncan, LBJ, Curry, etc. on your roster, you have no shot at a title regardless of how many Joakim Noah's you have.

Well it's funny you mention Detroit, because you look at their frontcourt and what did they have? Two absolutely elite defenders. Only one of them was actually even competent on offense.

So one could argue that you'd actually have a better shot at building a title winner with, say, a Jaren Jackson/Bam Adebayo-type of frontcourt. Just load up on good but not superstar perimeter players and that might work like it did for them.

If your goal is titles, then what you want is for Chicago to:
- Trade capspace for future picks
- Try to miss the playoffs again next year and hope to get lucky

This has been what I wished they had done and I know they won't. They simply don't plan like that and it's why frankly I wish they had just kept Jimmy Butler because that's basically what this team is on the road to again anyways.

The Bulls really haven't screwed up yet but yeah, I kind of think its around the corner. IMHO, they did fine in the draft. Not great, but fine. At this point, its all about asset management and I don't think that the Bulls turned one of their picks into an untradeable bust (McDermott, Snell, Teague, Tyrus, etc.).

Where the rubber hits the road here is free agency. If they go "all in" trying to build a 42 win team than I'll be right next to you blasting away. They really need to hold their fire and continue to accumulate assets. This team is at least a year away from even trying to win.

[Dresden]

Well it's funny you mention Detroit, because you look at their frontcourt and what did they have? Two absolutely elite defenders. Only one of them was actually even competent on offense.

So one could argue that you'd actually have a better shot at building a title winner with, say, a Jaren Jackson/Bam Adebayo-type of frontcourt. Just load up on good but not superstar perimeter players and that might work like it did for them.


This has been what I wished they had done and I know they won't. They simply don't plan like that and it's why frankly I wish they had just kept Jimmy Butler because that's basically what this team is on the road to again anyways.

Much different era though. I don't know if Ben Wallace could play in today's era and be as effective. Scoring is a much bigger part of the game now than it was then. Rasheed Wallace was perfect for today's game- he could shoot from deep and space the floor and was touch to match up with.

Don't downplay Detroit's wings/backcourt either. Chauncey was an all-star level talent, as was Rip, and their small forward, I"m blanking on his name, was also very versatile- he could defend, he could handle the ball, he could score, he could rebound. All three were above average.

I mean you're kinda making my point for me here, you literally can't even remember Tayshaun Prince's name.

My point is that it's a lot easier to find those guys than it is a LeBron or Curry or Dirk. If you are going to build a non-superstar title contender, it absolutely needs to be defense-focused, to an absolutely extreme level.

Ok, I do agree with that point- a top notch defense can somewhat negate a disparity in talent. That's how Boston was able to take CLE to 7 games this year in the ECF.

[Dresden]

I don't think Gasol has either a 7'4" wingspan or a 39" vertical. Carter is a much more fluid athlete.

Gasol was once pretty great athlete. Still can't believe Bulls didnt get flak for drafting Tyson over Pau. But we get flak drafting Tyrus over Aldridge.

Marc, not Pau.

[SHO'NUFF]

What about carters hands? I read that his hands aren’t that big compared to the other bigs in the draft.

I wonder if that plays a roll with his athleticism under the basket having to grip the ball.

[BR0D1E86]

I don't think Gasol has either a 7'4" wingspan or a 39" vertical. Carter is a much more fluid athlete.

Gasol was once pretty great athlete. Still can't believe Bulls didnt get flak for drafting Tyson over Pau. But we get flak drafting Tyrus over Aldridge.

The Gasol comments in this thread were referencing Marc.

To your point, I think it’s because Tyson developed into a pretty solid pro, while Tyrus busted impressively. So while not best on he board, Tyson ended up being a pretty solid pick. OT- I still remember buying some nba game that year that had Tyson as a small forward. Always found that funny.

[Benedict Miller]

I actually think it is a disrespect to Carter to compare him to Horford. If you look at their college career trajectory, you'll get the idea. As a freshman, Horford was averaging about 6ppg and less than 7rebs and his perimeter skills and 3pt shot were non-existent. The only stats of Horford that compare to Carter's freshman season is his junior year, and there was not even any 3pt shot to speak of either. So technically, Carter was doing at 18-19 what Horford was doing at 21 years of age. Carter should be compared to guys like Webber and Blake Griffin.

Horford had more quickness. Had ability to switch onto guards. Where Carter looked more like Kendrick Perkins as a perimeter defender. Very slow feet and poor technique. If it wasn't for the zone Duke implemented, not sure if he'd have the same success protecting the rim either. Horford used his quickness to his advantage. But I do believe Carter has more skill.