Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[GoBlue72391]

I mean, Dalen is WILDLY better at defense, which is exactly half the game.

Dalen Terry's defensive impact doesn't look any better. Like at all. can you use any numbers to support that?

Defensive Rating Giddey last year 113 to Terry 116.
Block rate Giddey 1.8% to Terry 1.3%.
Defensive BPM Giddey 1.1 to Terry .2.
Steal rate Giddey 1.9% to Terry 2.1%
Defensive rebound rate Giddey 21.4% to Terry 9%

By almost every defensive metric you can use Giddey was better defensively last year than Terry. First year on the team. Certainly Terry wasn't wildly better.

I just think individual defensive metrics are laughably bad for analysis and always have been. That they apparently show Josh to be better than Terry is proof IMO. Terry isn't an elite defender cause he fouls too much, but he's obviously a good one and wildly better than Josh despite the fouling. Dalen also doesn't get respect from officials which isn't his fault. I seriously can't believe I have to write that Dalen is better than Josh as a defender. Dalen is a near worthless offensive player though. He's the inverse of Vuc.

Defensive stats have always been a joke and it's a joke when people use them to "prove" something.

Dalen Terry sucks at basketball, but he is absolutely a better defender than Giddey. It's crazy that people would try to argue Giddey is a better defender.

[League Circles]

If Giddey is a league average shooter and league average defender (guarding players his size), but elite passer, rebounder, runs the offense at elite level, consistently 20 point scorer on good TS%, is that a great player or not?

And would anybody really be mad if he ends up with $26-$28 mill? That appears to be the range this is heading, imo.

If he were a league average shooter and defender for players his size with those other traits, yes he'd be a great player. But it's very unlikely he'll ever be a league average shooter or defender for guys his size. I mean, we're an average team at best at the moment and among guys about his size, he's easily the worst defender among them. The worst shooter too, IMO. Or about tied with Dalen. I'll be generous and say he's a better shooter than Dalen. Of course Dalen is a way better defender, just like Patrick, Phillips, Matas and Essengue. I also consider Huerter a better defender by a decent amount and he's about the same size. Doesn't mean Giddey is some atrocious, Trae Young level defender. It's just that the average 6'-8" guy is better.

I'd be very happy with a 26-28 mil AAV range.

I'd consider most of the guys on the team around his size as good defenders, actually guys looked at more for their defense than offense (Williams, Phillips, Terry, Noa). Matas looks to be above average defender too. Definitely wouldn't consider Huerter better. Giddey has better DPBM, defensive win shares, block rate%, defensive rebound %, steal rate about the same, and Giddey's only 22. Giddey's been better by almost every metric.

Not the worst shooter, Terry and Phillips have shot worse, and Noa likely shoots worse than Giddey next year. None of them outshot Giddey last year from 3, including Matas and Pat. That's for the entire season, not just the second half, where he really killed them. Assumption is Giddey seriously regresses, but he's been getting better every year. Don't think it implausible he could get better and do what he's already done before. At least NBA average.

Lott of talk about how Giddey's 3's don't really count, because of how he gets them. He averaged 6.1 attempts a game last year, he keeps that percentage up or even close, don't really care if it's because guys are leaving him open. He hits 36%+ of his threes, anybody can call him a bad shooter all they want, Bulls still get the points. They tighten up on him, he gets more assists.

Average SF defensive rating last year: 115.7. Giddey 113. That's the position I'd compare 6'8 guys to. He looks better defensively than to start the season already. Are you factoring no improvement at all in either area?

Also you mention 36% on threes as if that's something good in a vacuum. That's 54% TS%, maybe a tiny bit higher to account for guys getting the rare shooting foul on 3PAs. League average TS% last year was .576. The value of 3P shots for most guys outside of Steph Curry is the spacing it provides to get actually efficient shots close to the basket. Giddey doesn't provide the gravity and spacing of a typical shooter of his percentages. I know some people think guys are bound to improve on threes, but it's easy to see how even hard workers can regress in their 3 pt shooting performance - see Jimmy Butler and Ayo Dosunmu.

I think there's an excellent chance that Giddey posted his career high 3 pt % last season. Which is fine. Decreasing numbers won't reflect actual skill regression.

[HomoSapien]

If Giddey is a league average shooter and league average defender (guarding players his size), but elite passer, rebounder, runs the offense at elite level, consistently 20 point scorer on good TS%, is that a great player or not?

And would anybody really be mad if he ends up with $26-$28 mill? That appears to be the range this is heading, imo.

If he were a league average shooter and defender for players his size with those other traits, yes he'd be a great player. But it's very unlikely he'll ever be a league average shooter or defender for guys his size. I mean, we're an average team at best at the moment and among guys about his size, he's easily the worst defender among them. The worst shooter too, IMO. Or about tied with Dalen. I'll be generous and say he's a better shooter than Dalen. Of course Dalen is a way better defender, just like Patrick, Phillips, Matas and Essengue. I also consider Huerter a better defender by a decent amount and he's about the same size. Doesn't mean Giddey is some atrocious, Trae Young level defender. It's just that the average 6'-8" guy is better.

I'd be very happy with a 26-28 mil AAV range.

Giddey is better at anything you could possibly post then Dalen.

Also Giddey shot 38% from downtown. Higher than Huerter! He’s lower volume obviously, but I’m not seeing the argument for how he’s the worst shooter on the roster if he’s doing that.

[League Circles]

If he were a league average shooter and defender for players his size with those other traits, yes he'd be a great player. But it's very unlikely he'll ever be a league average shooter or defender for guys his size. I mean, we're an average team at best at the moment and among guys about his size, he's easily the worst defender among them. The worst shooter too, IMO. Or about tied with Dalen. I'll be generous and say he's a better shooter than Dalen. Of course Dalen is a way better defender, just like Patrick, Phillips, Matas and Essengue. I also consider Huerter a better defender by a decent amount and he's about the same size. Doesn't mean Giddey is some atrocious, Trae Young level defender. It's just that the average 6'-8" guy is better.

I'd be very happy with a 26-28 mil AAV range.

Giddey is better at anything you could possibly post then Dalen.

Also Giddey shot 38% from downtown. Higher than Huerter! He’s lower volume obviously, but I’m not seeing the argument for how he’s the worst shooter on the roster if he’s doing that.

The argument is based on the impact of his shooting on the overall game, on how the team is defended.

Giddey has shooting form that isn't a ton better than Joakim Noah. And he shoots extremely slowly. I'm not sure if he's our worst jump shooter, but he's on the level of Collins and Terry as far as being in the discussion. Which is fine, nobody is suggesting he's a flawless player. He's looking like he'll be good despite his obvious flaws.

[Infinity2152]

Dalen Terry's defensive impact doesn't look any better. Like at all. can you use any numbers to support that?

Defensive Rating Giddey last year 113 to Terry 116.
Block rate Giddey 1.8% to Terry 1.3%.
Defensive BPM Giddey 1.1 to Terry .2.
Steal rate Giddey 1.9% to Terry 2.1%
Defensive rebound rate Giddey 21.4% to Terry 9%

By almost every defensive metric you can use Giddey was better defensively last year than Terry. First year on the team. Certainly Terry wasn't wildly better.

I just think individual defensive metrics are laughably bad for analysis and always have been. That they apparently show Josh to be better than Terry is proof IMO. Terry isn't an elite defender cause he fouls too much, but he's obviously a good one and wildly better than Josh despite the fouling. Dalen also doesn't get respect from officials which isn't his fault. I seriously can't believe I have to write that Dalen is better than Josh as a defender. Dalen is a near worthless offensive player though. He's the inverse of Vuc.

Defensive stats have always been a joke and it's a joke when people use them to "prove" something.

Dalen Terry sucks at basketball, but he is absolutely a better defender than Giddey. It's crazy that people would try to argue Giddey is a better defender.

So what do you use to prove something? Eye test? Opinion? Now that sounds like a joke. Have to have some common ground for comparison. Stats are the easiest measure. Individual stats vary, but the more you use, the clearer the picture will be. Eye test is so subjective, it's not funny. Well, I guess it is. How would you prove Terry is a better defender, by the way?

[HomoSapien]

Giddey is better at anything you could possibly post then Dalen.

Also Giddey shot 38% from downtown. Higher than Huerter! He’s lower volume obviously, but I’m not seeing the argument for how he’s the worst shooter on the roster if he’s doing that.

The argument is based on the impact of his shooting on the overall game, on how the team is defended.

Giddey has shooting form that isn't a ton better than Joakim Noah. And he shoots extremely slowly. I'm not sure if he's our worst jump shooter, but he's on the level of Collins and Terry as far as being in the discussion. Which is fine, nobody is suggesting he's a flawless player. He's looking like he'll be good despite his obvious flaws.

He’s much closer to Vucevic in terms of shooting impact than Collins and Terry. Shooting and defense were always labeled as his biggest flaws. Well, if he keeps shooting the way he does then I’m not sure how anyoe would categorize his shooting as a true liability.

[League Circles]

I just think individual defensive metrics are laughably bad for analysis and always have been. That they apparently show Josh to be better than Terry is proof IMO. Terry isn't an elite defender cause he fouls too much, but he's obviously a good one and wildly better than Josh despite the fouling. Dalen also doesn't get respect from officials which isn't his fault. I seriously can't believe I have to write that Dalen is better than Josh as a defender. Dalen is a near worthless offensive player though. He's the inverse of Vuc.

Defensive stats have always been a joke and it's a joke when people use them to "prove" something.

Dalen Terry sucks at basketball, but he is absolutely a better defender than Giddey. It's crazy that people would try to argue Giddey is a better defender.

So what do you use to prove something? Eye test? Opinion?

You just accept that you cannot prove that one player is better than another at something as broadly encompassing as defense. Eye test and opinions are really all we have IMO. Basketball is a team sport, there really aren't individual goals, so comparing individual player quality (which is highly context-dependent on their specific team) is fundamentally a qualitative exercise IMO.

You can't prove one guy is a better defender than another any better than you can prove who is the "GOAT".

The only thing you can "prove" comparatively in basketball in which team played better in an individual game or series. It's the team that won, by definition.

[Infinity2152]

People talked about Ball's form too, lmao! Giddey had 6.1 3pt attempts/gm on good shooting. His 3pt shooting impact is like Collins or Terry? Really? Williams is a better shooter, Giddey is a far more impactful shooter because of volume. Slow release didn't stop him from launching over 6 attempts/gm on good shooting. If he shot faster on 6 attempts with good shooting, we get more points?

[League Circles]

Also Giddey shot 38% from downtown. Higher than Huerter! He’s lower volume obviously, but I’m not seeing the argument for how he’s the worst shooter on the roster if he’s doing that.

The argument is based on the impact of his shooting on the overall game, on how the team is defended.

Giddey has shooting form that isn't a ton better than Joakim Noah. And he shoots extremely slowly. I'm not sure if he's our worst jump shooter, but he's on the level of Collins and Terry as far as being in the discussion. Which is fine, nobody is suggesting he's a flawless player. He's looking like he'll be good despite his obvious flaws.

He’s much closer to Vucevic in terms of shooting impact than Collins and Terry. Shooting and defense were always labeled as his biggest flaws. Well, if he keeps shooting the way he does then I’m not sure how anyoe would categorize his shooting as a true liability.

As long as he's not above league average shooting efficiency (he's not), his shooting is a liability relative to the average guy unless he draws more attention and creates more spacing than such a guy, which IMO he doesn't. Hard to compare him as a point with low volume off ball guys though.

[Stratmaster]

It's not necessarily that we want Giddey to shoot more, it's just an observation that he passes up open shots that better shooters wouldn't pass up. He does this probably because he knows that because he's such a limited shooter, a lot of open shots for him still aren't great shots. So it's good in the sense that he knows his limitations, but it's still a limitation.

Well if he is scoring efficiently, and taking the volume off shots he should, and getting 9 assists, isn't he taking the right shots?

It seems to me it all comes back to us wanting him to be a better 3 point shooter and threat. I get that. But 5 to 6 attempts a game at 37%... those aren't horrible numbers. If he can maintain that consistently I don't see it as a liability. Especially since the Bulls (somewhat stupid) plan is to play as fast as possible. That reduces the number of possessions where other defenses can set up and then "ignore" Giddey and sag on everyone else.

He does take smart shots, which is a good thing. Just not as good of a thing as taking smart shots AND actually being a good shooter.

To Doug's point, shooting numbers are often quite misleading. Keep in mind that even a 38% three point shooter is only hitting about league average TS% on those shots - the benefit is usually in the spacing, but that's pretty obviously not created by Giddey. In fairness to Giddey, a significant part of why defenders play off of him is due to his great passing - playing a bit further off makes it easier to defend against passes.

Personally I'm more concerned with his defense than his shooting, but those are two big areas that explain why the Bulls are offering him less than 2/3 of a max salary. If defenders hounded him closer, I suspect he'd rarely ever even shoot threes at all, cause due to his Joakim-Noah-like ultra slow release, he just couldn't get the shot off cleanly at decent percentages. I'm still pretty high on him despite these criticisms, but again to Doug's point, a guy like Coby is obviously a MUCH better shooter than Giddey, despite the numbers. Obvious to anyone watching. Not comparing them overall as players. I think they're roughly equal and that reasonable minds can differ on who is currently better, but reasonable minds can't differ on who is a better shooter. Same with a guy like Kevin Huerter. I'd even call Patrick a better shooter from three point range. But I'm glad Giddey is doing a better job knocking down those open threes, because if he continues to improve and look less like Noah with his form, defenses will respect him more and more and play him tighter. This will likely decrease his efficiency and shor attempts, but increase his assists and team offensive performance.

I would disagree. Shooting numbers are rarely misleading with a reasonable and substantial sample. They are what they are. And he is 22, not 32. I'm not sure comparing him to Coby White as a shooter is of any consequence. When Coby White is hot he is a much better shooter, yes. When Coby isn't, he isn't. As overall players Giddey is clearly way more valuable. Better defensively. More impactful overall offensively.

[Chi town]

Giddey’s most important late season development with his FT rate. If he can get that above 6 per game he will be a good offensive player. Ideally he keeps his 3s at 6 attempts per game too but I think the FT rate is more important.

[Stratmaster]

IDK. I think your eye test may not be the thing to look at. Feb/Mar/Apr Giddey was putting up about 15 shots per game, plus about 3 trips to the line. So he was shooting on 17-18 possessions a game. If he is passing up all the shots you think he is....I guess we need to talk about how often you want Giddey, who is your top facilitator/assist guy, shooting each game. It's not like the percentages he put up were on low volume.

I mean, sure. We all wish he was a better 3 point shooter. But with what else he brings, I will take 38% on 5 attempts per 36 all day long. He needs some better 3 point shooting around him.

It's not necessarily that we want Giddey to shoot more, it's just an observation that he passes up open shots that better shooters wouldn't pass up. He does this probably because he knows that because he's such a limited shooter, a lot of open shots for him still aren't great shots. So it's good in the sense that he knows his limitations, but it's still a limitation.

Maybe another way to look at it is if Giddey were a good shooter, the numbers might be the same, but the impact would be totally different. Guys would be guarding him way out at the line hard all the time, and you would have much better spacing for everyone else.

Meh. I can't and wouldn't argue your logic. I just don't think it would be to the level difference you do. I hope teams leave Josh wide open for 3's if he can hit them at 40٪ (40% on just the wide open ones).

Besides. If the Bulls are having to set up offense in the half court like that most of the time, they have failed out of the gate. It's run and gun, remember?

EDITED to correct the damned autofill mistakes

[League Circles]

Well if he is scoring efficiently, and taking the volume off shots he should, and getting 9 assists, isn't he taking the right shots?

It seems to me it all comes back to us wanting him to be a better 3 point shooter and threat. I get that. But 5 to 6 attempts a game at 37%... those aren't horrible numbers. If he can maintain that consistently I don't see it as a liability. Especially since the Bulls (somewhat stupid) plan is to play as fast as possible. That reduces the number of possessions where other defenses can set up and then "ignore" Giddey and sag on everyone else.

He does take smart shots, which is a good thing. Just not as good of a thing as taking smart shots AND actually being a good shooter.

To Doug's point, shooting numbers are often quite misleading. Keep in mind that even a 38% three point shooter is only hitting about league average TS% on those shots - the benefit is usually in the spacing, but that's pretty obviously not created by Giddey. In fairness to Giddey, a significant part of why defenders play off of him is due to his great passing - playing a bit further off makes it easier to defend against passes.

Personally I'm more concerned with his defense than his shooting, but those are two big areas that explain why the Bulls are offering him less than 2/3 of a max salary. If defenders hounded him closer, I suspect he'd rarely ever even shoot threes at all, cause due to his Joakim-Noah-like ultra slow release, he just couldn't get the shot off cleanly at decent percentages. I'm still pretty high on him despite these criticisms, but again to Doug's point, a guy like Coby is obviously a MUCH better shooter than Giddey, despite the numbers. Obvious to anyone watching. Not comparing them overall as players. I think they're roughly equal and that reasonable minds can differ on who is currently better, but reasonable minds can't differ on who is a better shooter. Same with a guy like Kevin Huerter. I'd even call Patrick a better shooter from three point range. But I'm glad Giddey is doing a better job knocking down those open threes, because if he continues to improve and look less like Noah with his form, defenses will respect him more and more and play him tighter. This will likely decrease his efficiency and shor attempts, but increase his assists and team offensive performance.

I would disagree. Shooting numbers are rarely misleading with a reasonable and substantial sample. They are what they are. And he is 22, not 32. I'm not sure comparing him to Coby White as a shooter is of any consequence. When Coby White is hot he is a much better shooter, yes. When Coby isn't, he isn't. As overall players Giddey is clearly way more valuable. Better defensively. More impactful overall offensively.

I'd say when the television screen is working, Coby White is a better shooter than Josh Giddey. I'd bet you $1000 that every single NBA coach and player would agree that Coby is the better shooter. Every player is a better shooter "when hot" than whoever else. Coby is better at shooting, period. Only people who refuse to consider the points Doug has made would argue that.

[Stratmaster]

He does take smart shots, which is a good thing. Just not as good of a thing as taking smart shots AND actually being a good shooter.

To Doug's point, shooting numbers are often quite misleading. Keep in mind that even a 38% three point shooter is only hitting about league average TS% on those shots - the benefit is usually in the spacing, but that's pretty obviously not created by Giddey. In fairness to Giddey, a significant part of why defenders play off of him is due to his great passing - playing a bit further off makes it easier to defend against passes.

Personally I'm more concerned with his defense than his shooting, but those are two big areas that explain why the Bulls are offering him less than 2/3 of a max salary. If defenders hounded him closer, I suspect he'd rarely ever even shoot threes at all, cause due to his Joakim-Noah-like ultra slow release, he just couldn't get the shot off cleanly at decent percentages. I'm still pretty high on him despite these criticisms, but again to Doug's point, a guy like Coby is obviously a MUCH better shooter than Giddey, despite the numbers. Obvious to anyone watching. Not comparing them overall as players. I think they're roughly equal and that reasonable minds can differ on who is currently better, but reasonable minds can't differ on who is a better shooter. Same with a guy like Kevin Huerter. I'd even call Patrick a better shooter from three point range. But I'm glad Giddey is doing a better job knocking down those open threes, because if he continues to improve and look less like Noah with his form, defenses will respect him more and more and play him tighter. This will likely decrease his efficiency and shor attempts, but increase his assists and team offensive performance.

I would disagree. Shooting numbers are rarely misleading with a reasonable and substantial sample. They are what they are. And he is 22, not 32. I'm not sure comparing him to Coby White as a shooter is of any consequence. When Coby White is hot he is a much better shooter, yes. When Coby isn't, he isn't. As overall players Giddey is clearly way more valuable. Better defensively. More impactful overall offensively.

I'd say when the television screen is working, Coby White is a better shooter than Josh Giddey. I'd bet you $1000 that every single NBA coach and player would agree that Coby is the better shooter. Every player is a better shooter "when hot" than whoever else. Coby is better at shooting, period. Only people who refuse to consider the points Doug has made would argue that.

He is a MUCH better shooter when hot. He isn't when he isn't. I was referencing your all caps superlative. That makes him overall a better shooter, yes. I never said he wasn't. Coby is a better shooter than all kinds of players who are better overall than Coby is. It is his main skill. I don't get what that had to do with Giddey's shooting and his impact on the team offense. "Coby is a better shooter than Giddey, so therefore... " " what? What is the point you are trying to make? That if Giddey can't shot as well as Coby he isn't with his contract? That unless he can shoot as well as Coby defenses will lay off him? Well good luck finding that guy who shoots a well as Coby and can also do what Giddey can, that Coby can't. Those guys are called superstars and make way more than 25-30 mil.

Accusing me of refusing to consider anything seems like a deflection and a way of avoiding the real discussion.

[League Circles]

I would disagree. Shooting numbers are rarely misleading with a reasonable and substantial sample. They are what they are. And he is 22, not 32. I'm not sure comparing him to Coby White as a shooter is of any consequence. When Coby White is hot he is a much better shooter, yes. When Coby isn't, he isn't. As overall players Giddey is clearly way more valuable. Better defensively. More impactful overall offensively.

I'd say when the television screen is working, Coby White is a better shooter than Josh Giddey. I'd bet you $1000 that every single NBA coach and player would agree that Coby is the better shooter. Every player is a better shooter "when hot" than whoever else. Coby is better at shooting, period. Only people who refuse to consider the points Doug has made would argue that.

He is a MUCH better shooter when hot. He isn't when he isn't. I was referencing your all caps superlative. That makes him overall a better shooter, yes. I never said he wasn't. Coby is a better shooter than all kinds of players who are better overall than Coby is. It is his main skill. I don't get what that had to do with Giddey's shooting and his impact on the team offense. "Coby is a better shooter than Giddey, so therefore... " " what? What is the point you are trying to make? That if Giddey can't shot as well as Coby he isn't with his contract? That unless he can shoot as well as Coby defenses will lay off him? Well good luck finding that guy who shoots a well as Coby and can also do what Giddey can, that Coby can't. Those guys are called superstars and make way more than 25-30 mil.

Accusing me of refusing to consider anything seems like a deflection and a way of avoiding the real discussion.

The discussion was about how numbers don't tell a very full story for shooting ability. Coby was bought up because he's a way better shooter than Giddey despite shooting a lower % from three. Doug walked people through the explanations. So Giddey is a great example of when numbers are indeed misleading. You saying "they are what they are" about shooting numbers makes it pretty clear that you're not interested in considering how poor of a picture they can paint of a guy's ability. Two guys could have the same % and attempt rate from three, with one guy being a much better shooter than the other, because you can really only discover the differences by watching and being honest about the context of what you see. Please note that it was you who of course had to put in your obligatory off-topic digs at Coby. Giddey isn't a good jump shooter because he has terrible form and shoots extremely slowly. It's not that complicated. He's the Joakim Noah of SFs in terms of jump shooting. I like him a lot despite that and the defensive inadequacies.

[League Circles]

Considering Josh to be a competent jump shooter is like glancing at Jimmy Butler or Ayo's early career numbers and inaccurately calling them good at that.

Except that they both had significantly better form than Josh.

[Stratmaster]

He does take smart shots, which is a good thing. Just not as good of a thing as taking smart shots AND actually being a good shooter.

To Doug's point, shooting numbers are often quite misleading. Keep in mind that even a 38% three point shooter is only hitting about league average TS% on those shots - the benefit is usually in the spacing, but that's pretty obviously not created by Giddey. In fairness to Giddey, a significant part of why defenders play off of him is due to his great passing - playing a bit further off makes it easier to defend against passes.

Personally I'm more concerned with his defense than his shooting, but those are two big areas that explain why the Bulls are offering him less than 2/3 of a max salary. If defenders hounded him closer, I suspect he'd rarely ever even shoot threes at all, cause due to his Joakim-Noah-like ultra slow release, he just couldn't get the shot off cleanly at decent percentages. I'm still pretty high on him despite these criticisms, but again to Doug's point, a guy like Coby is obviously a MUCH better shooter than Giddey, despite the numbers. Obvious to anyone watching. Not comparing them overall as players. I think they're roughly equal and that reasonable minds can differ on who is currently better, but reasonable minds can't differ on who is a better shooter. Same with a guy like Kevin Huerter. I'd even call Patrick a better shooter from three point range. But I'm glad Giddey is doing a better job knocking down those open threes, because if he continues to improve and look less like Noah with his form, defenses will respect him more and more and play him tighter. This will likely decrease his efficiency and shor attempts, but increase his assists and team offensive performance.

I would disagree. Shooting numbers are rarely misleading with a reasonable and substantial sample. They are what they are. And he is 22, not 32. I'm not sure comparing him to Coby White as a shooter is of any consequence. When Coby White is hot he is a much better shooter, yes. When Coby isn't, he isn't. As overall players Giddey is clearly way more valuable. Better defensively. More impactful overall offensively.

I'd say when the television screen is working, Coby White is a better shooter than Josh Giddey. I'd bet you $1000 that every single NBA coach and player would agree that Coby is the better shooter. Every player is a better shooter "when hot" than whoever else. Coby is better at shooting, period. Only people who refuse to consider the points Doug has made would argue that.

I think we are debating everything except the real question. Maybe this will bring us together.

We all agree shooting would be Giddey's biggest question mark. The discussion is about what to pay him. Almost all agree it's 25-30 mil. Doug has his top number at 25. Mine is at 30. So the question is, is his shooting such a liability that it should keep the Bulls from paying him more than 25m.

My opinion. The numbers don't show that when considering the other things he brings to the table. Especially when you add that the Bulls have no desire to play set-up half court offense, and Giddey's style of play is perfect for keeping them away from having to play set-up half court offense.

Doug, and I believe you, are still concerned about that. I fully acknowledged understanding of that concern a couple times. But my response is... MEH.

[Stratmaster]

Considering Josh to be a competent jump shooter is like glancing at Jimmy Butler or Ayo's early career numbers and inaccurately calling them good at that.

Except that they both had significantly better form than Josh.

And they both got significantly better. Giddey is 22. His offensive game is not built on outside shooting. I still don't understand what point you are trying to make with these comparisons.

[Stratmaster]

I'd say when the television screen is working, Coby White is a better shooter than Josh Giddey. I'd bet you $1000 that every single NBA coach and player would agree that Coby is the better shooter. Every player is a better shooter "when hot" than whoever else. Coby is better at shooting, period. Only people who refuse to consider the points Doug has made would argue that.

He is a MUCH better shooter when hot. He isn't when he isn't. I was referencing your all caps superlative. That makes him overall a better shooter, yes. I never said he wasn't. Coby is a better shooter than all kinds of players who are better overall than Coby is. It is his main skill. I don't get what that had to do with Giddey's shooting and his impact on the team offense. "Coby is a better shooter than Giddey, so therefore... " " what? What is the point you are trying to make? That if Giddey can't shot as well as Coby he isn't with his contract? That unless he can shoot as well as Coby defenses will lay off him? Well good luck finding that guy who shoots a well as Coby and can also do what Giddey can, that Coby can't. Those guys are called superstars and make way more than 25-30 mil.

Accusing me of refusing to consider anything seems like a deflection and a way of avoiding the real discussion.

The discussion was about how numbers don't tell a very full story for shooting ability. Coby was bought up because he's a way better shooter than Giddey despite shooting a lower % from three. Doug walked people through the explanations. So Giddey is a great example of when numbers are indeed misleading. You saying "they are what they are" about shooting numbers makes it pretty clear that you're not interested in considering how poor of a picture they can paint of a guy's ability. Two guys could have the same % and attempt rate from three, with one guy being a much better shooter than the other, because you can really only discover the differences by watching and being honest about the context of what you see. Please note that it was you who of course had to put in your obligatory off-topic digs at Coby. Giddey isn't a good jump shooter because he has terrible form and shoots extremely slowly. It's not that complicated. He's the Joakim Noah of SFs in terms of jump shooting. I like him a lot despite that and the defensive inadequacies.

This seems like it is personal to you. I will just call it a day.

[League Circles]

I think we are debating everything except the real question. Maybe this will bring us together.

We all agree shooting would be Giddey's biggest question mark. The discussion is about what to pay him. Almost all agree it's 25-30 mil. Doug has his top number at 25. Mine is at 30. So the question is, is his shooting such a liability that it should keep the Bulls from paying him more than 25m.

My opinion. The numbers don't show that when considering the other things he brings to the table. Especially when you add that the Bulls have no desire to play set-up half court offense, and Giddey's style of play is perfect for keeping them away from having to play set-up half court offense.

Doug, and I believe you, are still concerned about that. I fully acknowledged understanding of that concern a couple times. But my response is... MEH.

I'm a bit more concerned with Giddey's defense than his jump shooting (I say jump shooting cause he's quite solid on his floaters and running drives). But my top number for him is at least 30 mil, probably more, definitely in a matching offer sheet situation if that were the case.

I just think he'll always be a fundamentally sub par jump shooter and defender when it really matters due to what I'd basically call physical disability relative to other 6'-8" guys that play the 3 position. But that's OK. He can still be worthy of being a core starter and running the offense and getting paid 30 mil. Certainly in comparison to letting him walk for nothing.