Melo #14- Can Melo Come Out and Play?

[ingvald]

I don't know the exact number and I am way to burnt out but it's likely around $15 million and not enough.

Sorry if its been clarified, I haven't had time to get thru all 50 pages. Also, these numbers may not be accurate but got salaries from hoopshype-

-If the Bulls amnesty Boozer, they'll have $11.12 in cap space.
-S&T with just non-guaranteeds matches to $15.21
-S&T with Dunleavy and non-guaranteeds matches to $18.21
-S&T with Dunleavy and Butler and non-guaranteeds matches to $20.39

Bulls would still have MLE to offer Pau or Mirotic if over the cap in S&T scenario.

Is this accurate?

Trusting Magilla- No. They'd lose the MLE. But they can still offer Melo max money in S&T after an amnesty of Boozer. I think.

[Proven_Winner]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/

Sweet home, Chicago?
Maybe not for Carmelo Anthony.
With the Melopalooza set to hit Los Angeles on Friday, the Bulls’ position appears to be weakening. According to an NBA source, the Bulls, during Tuesday’s meetings, floated the idea of Anthony making about $16 million per year across four seasons — a sum that is not going to move the needle away from Anthony’s pre-trip gut feeling to stick with the Knicks.

The Bulls are over the cap and can manage a starting salary of $17 million only if they amnesty Carlos Boozer and trade both Mike Dunleavy and Jimmy Butler. That would create a contract worth $72.6 million over four years.

Hence, it appears the only chance the Bulls and Anthony have at a marriage is if they can coax Jackson into a sign-and-trade, and the Knicks president has shown no inclination toward cooperating. That’s why the Knicks have remained so confident. In fact ESPN.com reports Jackson is opposed to a sign-and-trade deal centering around Boozer. The Chicago Tribune reported Bulls officials nevertheless feel they “connected’’ with Anthony.

Before the Anthony free-agency tour, The Post quoted a source connected to Anthony’s inner circle saying, “There’s reason to believe he’s staying.’’

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

But will Melo really want to force us to give away a lot for him to come here. We really can't offer more to the Knicks other than boozer+2 1st+1 2nd+ unguaranteeds for Melo+JR. That seems like a pretty fair trade honestly. Melo also knows that he can't force his next team to strip everything just to get him because then it makes it even longer to build a roster around you especially now that teams are overpaying guys left and right. It's been said already in this thread this is time for Melo to put his money where his mouth is and prove he's a man of his word. He said he doesn't care about money over winning, he said he could retire right now, he said he doesn't wants to win so he knows what he's got to do. If you don't want to take 16mil then force a S&T where you can get around 20mil, but don't expect to come here and then want us to give you 20mil through capspace.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Got this from the knicks board, from LaLa's book. Thought was interesting the last part.

“I also knew that if I ever bought a house, it would probably be in L.A.,’’ she wrote. “It’s so different from New York and Atlanta. L.A. is like my chill place. I can be laid-back and relaxed there. I also could see myself eventually settling there, like my retirement spot.’’
The book also revealed some intimate details of the couple’s private life. Their son, Kiyan, when he was 2, had an emergency six-hour surgery on an ailing kidney. According to the book, Kiyan, now 6, occasionally gets bothered at school for the Knicks’ poor play.
La La wrote: “[Kiyan] came home one afternoon and asked me, ‘Mom why do they hate Dad? Some Kids at school said, Your dad sucks.’ ”

Everyone seems to think that Melo would stay in NY because his roots are in NY with Lala.

But in reality, Lala actually be flying to LA most of the time for her acting gigs and clothing line.

So them being based in NY or anywhere else is sort of irrelevant. Although she would probably prefer NY, ATL or LA

[Betta Bulleavit]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/

Sweet home, Chicago?
Maybe not for Carmelo Anthony.
With the Melopalooza set to hit Los Angeles on Friday, the Bulls’ position appears to be weakening. According to an NBA source, the Bulls, during Tuesday’s meetings, floated the idea of Anthony making about $16 million per year across four seasons — a sum that is not going to move the needle away from Anthony’s pre-trip gut feeling to stick with the Knicks.

The Bulls are over the cap and can manage a starting salary of $17 million only if they amnesty Carlos Boozer and trade both Mike Dunleavy and Jimmy Butler. That would create a contract worth $72.6 million over four years.

Hence, it appears the only chance the Bulls and Anthony have at a marriage is if they can coax Jackson into a sign-and-trade, and the Knicks president has shown no inclination toward cooperating. That’s why the Knicks have remained so confident. In fact ESPN.com reports Jackson is opposed to a sign-and-trade deal centering around Boozer. The Chicago Tribune reported Bulls officials nevertheless feel they “connected’’ with Anthony.

Before the Anthony free-agency tour, The Post quoted a source connected to Anthony’s inner circle saying, “There’s reason to believe he’s staying.’’

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

Here's the thing. The vast majority of the media (Chicago included) seems to have a difficult time grasping the fact that a S&T doesn't necessarily have to entail Boozer going to the Knicks. It's a very popular assumption. Just as many assumed that JR was too cheap to amnesty Boozer and that assumption became reality even though there was no truth to it. Also note that every report that has come out (especially from the NY media) is that Phil has no interest in taking Boozer back in a S&T. However, none of them have said that Jackson outright refuses to do a S&T at all.

So this in turn leads to the assumption that the Bulls can only offer 15.8 million to Anthony and it's also assumed that this is exactly what was discussed in our meeting with him even though most indications are that we didn't really talk hard core money with Melo because of the fact that there are so many different directions that this thing could go. In addition, Taj being part of the recruiting pitch also fed the fire that the Bulls were automatically looking to go the pure cap space route. But again, that's just another lazy assumption based on a severe lack of understanding of the CBA dynamics.

[r1terrell23]

Hmmm the game theoretically should change if we trade Taj and can get Pau with the MLE.

[Pnjguy]

The goal right now is to pay market value to get a huge TPE for Boozer. At the most you're looking at two 1st and three 2nds. If i have assurances from Melo, i'd do it.

[DerrickRose025]

@Jonathan_Feigen: As much as Drexler thought of Rox presentation, most telling might be that said Anthony was engaged, asked questions, "just wants to win."


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Betta Bulleavit]

Sorry if its been clarified, I haven't had time to get thru all 50 pages. Also, these numbers may not be accurate but got salaries from hoopshype-

-If the Bulls amnesty Boozer, they'll have $11.12 in cap space.
-S&T with just non-guaranteeds matches to $15.21
-S&T with Dunleavy and non-guaranteeds matches to $18.21
-S&T with Dunleavy and Butler and non-guaranteeds matches to $20.39

Bulls would still have MLE to offer Pau or Mirotic if over the cap in S&T scenario.

Is this accurate?

Trusting Magilla- No. They'd lose the MLE. But they can still offer Melo max money in S&T after an amnesty of Boozer. I think.

Not quite the max, but pretty close to it. But you are correct otherwise. Any amnesty of Boozer is going to eliminate the Bulls ability to use the MLE because it would effectively put the Bulls below the salary cap making them eligible to use the Room Exception only. Now...if Boozer is traded in any deal that brings back Anthony at a salary that is equal to or greater than Boozer's salary, THEN they would be able to use the MLE because they would stay over the cap line.

[Chitownbulls]

Hmmm the game theoretically should change if we trade Taj and can get Pau with the MLE.

Melo would come here for sure IMO. Get his money, get Pau gasol, and get championships!

[the ultimates]

Here is why I think the Bulls are the favorite when comparing them to the other pitches are have been or will be made, Other than the Bulls everybody else is banking on landing a high priced piece through free agency if Carmelo signs. The Knicks with the 2015 that could very well end up with a talented but 30 year old Marc Gasol who helps but doesn't make them title contenders. Houston with their supposed big five. Not so much now that Lowry is reportedly off the market and staying in Toronto. The Lakers with no coach and thus no direction who couldn't keep Howard around? Their rebuild like the Knicks hinges strictly around getting elite free agents who may not even be able. So what are odds on the better hypothetical scenario Rose returning to be an all-star caliber player or any of these other teams landing at least one high level free agent or some (Lakers, Knicks) probably needing two.

[ingvald]

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

The key then becomes if Pax can send enough assets in a S&T to make it worth it. Phil may be refusing the S&T as leverage. But if Melo tells Phil he wants to leave and the Bulls send Butler, Dunleavy, Mirotic, and multiple future 1sts- would he pass on it? Houston, Dallas, and LA could be additional leverage if Melo says he's walking away for nothing or S&T to the Bulls. In that scenario, Phil should encourage the S&T rather than see him walk to Houston for nothing. But does he call that bluff?

This is why the Bulls won't get Melo for a 2nd rounder and non-guaranteeds. The Bulls (most likely) need Phil's cooperation to make it work. And Phil should squeeze Pax's nuts for every asset he can get in return.

[ryannik09]

Boozer will not be part of a S&T to the Knicks.
Bulls will amnesty Boozer no matter what because it is highly unlikely that they find a trade partner.

Bulls can then send Dunleavy; Non-Guaranteeds; and Randolph to NY. NY takes on $5.2mm in salary for next season and for facilitating the S&T the Knicks also receive our 1st rd pick in 2015; the Sacramento pick and if its absolutely necessary to get the deal done a highly protected future 1st in 2017 or further out.

Melo gets a starting salary of around 20.5mm; Knicks get a couple of assets; Bulls get their man; everyone walks away happy.

Randolph can be included in this deal because the Bulls will be under the cap so he can be part of a trade with other players. This also allows the Bulls to keep Butler; who is an ideal fit next to Melo due to his defensive abilities.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Guys look..this is what it all boils down to. The Bulls can acquire both Melo and Gasol but they are going to have to be willing to be very flexible. They are going to have to be willing to give ALL of the following:

Boozer (no brainer)
Mirotic (hold yourself)
Dunleavy (Whatever)
Snell
Randolph
Non Guaranteeds
2015 First rounder
2017 First rounder
Sac Pick

So basically, every real asset that we have outside of Rose, Noah, Gibson, Jimmy, Doug and our 2016 pick.

[davhern]

Boozer will not be part of a S&T to the Knicks.
Bulls will amnesty Boozer no matter what because it is highly unlikely that they find a trade partner.

Bulls can then send Dunleavy; Non-Guaranteeds; and Randolph to NY. NY takes on $5.2mm in salary for next season and for facilitating the S&T the Knicks also receive our 1st rd pick in 2015; the Sacramento pick and if its absolutely necessary to get the deal done a highly protected future 1st in 2017 or further out.

Melo gets a starting salary of around 20.5mm; Knicks get a couple of assets; Bulls get their man; everyone walks away happy.

I don't think it's so unlikely to find a 3rd team that'll take on his contract in return for some assets that it should be ruled out.

Just depends if we value said assets more highly than the MLE, right?

[Chitownbulls]

Guys look..this is what it all boils down to. The Bulls can acquire both Melo and Gasol but they are going to have to be willing to be very flexible. They are going to have to be willing to give ALL of the following:

Boozer (no brainer)
Mirotic (hold yourself)
Dunleavy (Whatever)
Snell
Randolph
Non Guaranteeds
2015 First rounder
2017 First rounder
Sac Pick

So basically, every real asset that we have outside of Rose, Noah, Gibson, Jimmy, Doug and our 2016 pick.

They said they would try to use all of their assets to make us better. I'd take Rose Noah Gibson jimmy Doug Melo and the 2016 pick.

[Rerisen]

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

Bosh, Wade and LeBron started in Miami at 14.5.

If Melo commets to the Bulls for ~16, is Phil really gonna bet on the chance that Melo is going to renege on his offer and go back to NY, instead of doing a S&T?

I don't see it.

NY egos go beyond their fans, to their media. They just can't fathom anyone would leave NY to go to Chicago.

But Melo has a full boat max from Phil sitting on the table, if he's not serious about leaving that, then why did he do all this leg work, asking former players about Thibs, spending a trip in Europe with the Pippin family, calling and texting with Noah. Spending a full day in Chicago when he could have just spent a couple hours.

He doesn't need further leverage on NY the max offer is already there.

Doesn't mean he won't take it, but to think its impossible and this is all a big dog and pony show simply does not add up.

[fleet]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/

Sweet home, Chicago?
Maybe not for Carmelo Anthony.
With the Melopalooza set to hit Los Angeles on Friday, the Bulls’ position appears to be weakening. According to an NBA source, the Bulls, during Tuesday’s meetings, floated the idea of Anthony making about $16 million per year across four seasons — a sum that is not going to move the needle away from Anthony’s pre-trip gut feeling to stick with the Knicks.

The Bulls are over the cap and can manage a starting salary of $17 million only if they amnesty Carlos Boozer and trade both Mike Dunleavy and Jimmy Butler. That would create a contract worth $72.6 million over four years.

Hence, it appears the only chance the Bulls and Anthony have at a marriage is if they can coax Jackson into a sign-and-trade, and the Knicks president has shown no inclination toward cooperating. That’s why the Knicks have remained so confident. In fact ESPN.com reports Jackson is opposed to a sign-and-trade deal centering around Boozer. The Chicago Tribune reported Bulls officials nevertheless feel they “connected’’ with Anthony.

Before the Anthony free-agency tour, The Post quoted a source connected to Anthony’s inner circle saying, “There’s reason to believe he’s staying.’’

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

Here's the thing. The vast majority of the media (Chicago included) seems to have a difficult time grasping the fact that a S&T doesn't necessarily have to entail Boozer going to the Knicks. It's a very popular assumption. Just as many assumed that JR was too cheap to amnesty Boozer and that assumption became reality even though there was no truth to it. Also note that every report that has come out (especially from the NY media) is that Phil has no interest in taking Boozer back in a S&T. However, none of them have said that Jackson outright refuses to do a S&T at all.

So this in turn leads to the assumption that the Bulls can only offer 15.8 million to Anthony and it's also assumed that this is exactly what was discussed in our meeting with him even though most indications are that we didn't really talk hard core money with Melo because of the fact that there are so many different directions that this thing could go. In addition, Taj being part of the recruiting pitch also fed the fire that the Bulls were automatically looking to go the pure cap space route. But again, that's just another lazy assumption based on a severe lack of understanding of the CBA dynamics.

-we don't hear about the Bulls poking around for a 3rd team.
-we assume Phil (or Dolan) wouldn't play this to the bone and risk losing Melo for nothing, because....
A) The Knicks think Melo will not turn down the super max, and don't feel inclined to entertain offers
B) The Knicks are completely unwilling to trade Carmelo

-The Bulls haven't even given Melo a higher salary figure for his agent to work with, why not?
-Maybe the Bulls don't want to up the S&T ante offer into what it would take to get Phil/Dolan to relent and lose Melo. i.e., offering Mirotic and McDougie. Could be a non starter for them.

[davhern]

Didn't Ralph say we had had discussions on Boozer with some "3rd teams?"

[coldfish]

plenty of NY attitude. I tire of reading it, but I wanted to ask...

This is not the only place where it has been written the Bulls tried to go the capspace route with Melo. I take this to mean, the Bulls did not even attempt a S&T scenario at this point. Phil must have written "No (Boozer) S&T" down in blood.

So I assume where we are at is that in order to get Phil to possibly budge on S&Ts, we will require Melo to say to the Knicks that he will go to the Bulls for their capspace offer no matter what. However, the gist that I am getting from reports like this is that Melo needs a bigger Bulls offer in order to consider that kind of hardball play, and will not cooperate?

So, to sum it up in terms of drawing conclusions:
-Melo won't play hardball to force a S&T with the Knicks because of the small size of the Bulls offer. He is not willing to play for that.
-Phil is not gonna move on the S&T situation. The Bulls seem to believe him.
-The Bulls have to trade Taj Gibson in order to get that basic capspace offer up to a point where Melo will play for it.
-However, both the Bulls and Melo don't even want to go there with Taj. Melo doesn't want to be here if he can't win (because Taj would not be here). And he also doesn't want to be here if he can't get paid more than what the Bulls have to offer with Taj still on the team.

Even though this has been said before in more glib fashion in other articles, it finally sinks in. Sounds to me, there is no way out of this? I don't want to say the patient is dead yet. However, if these are the basic tentpoles of the situation, the Bulls should be moving on.

(Indeed perhaps the Boozer amnesty is not being done with Melo in mind anymore)

The Boozer amnesty thing needs to cool off. Boozer was told that he would be traded or amnestied. Some reporters ran with amnesty thing not understanding the details.

As far as your synopsis, there are several other outs:
- The Bulls find a 3rd team to take on Boozer. If they send him to Philly or Utah or LA or Orlando with 2 firsts, there is no way NY turns down something like Mirotic or a pick for the sign and trade. And yes, this has been reported that Chicago has gone down this route by multiple sources.
- Carmelo comes to NY and says "I'm out. I prefer a sign and trade to Chicago but if you can't work out a deal with the Bulls in the next 24 hours, I'm signing in LA". If that happens, NY is going to change its mind real quick on the sign and trade.

If I was NY, there is no way I would start negotiating a reasonable sign and trade until I had a gun to my head. As of this minute, they don't have that. If anything, they are the favorites to retain him. Why start tipping your hand when you are winning?

[thejet1711]

Just think of Cleveland and Toronto in 2010...refused to do a S&T and look what happened..