Bellinelli v Korver Redux

[PowerBull]

Shouldnt this be a hinrich vs korver thread?

No. We might as well make it a Beli vs. Asik thread. The roles aren't the same. Hinrich was signed to start for an injured Rose, possibly for an entire season, and then to back-up Rose. The only way it should be Hinrich vs. Korver is if you believe Hinrich was also brought in to be a small forward/shooting guard hybrid bench player like Korver, which he wasn't.

I didn't bring that up because of their positions, but because of the money they are signed (and traded) for.

You can't tell me there weren't cheaper PG options available. (which should have been only good for half a season) plus the team would be alot better/(cap)flexible going forward

[DuckIII]

Shouldnt this be a hinrich vs korver thread?

No. We might as well make it a Beli vs. Asik thread. The roles aren't the same. Hinrich was signed to start for an injured Rose, possibly for an entire season, and then to back-up Rose. The only way it should be Hinrich vs. Korver is if you believe Hinrich was also brought in to be a small forward/shooting guard hybrid bench player like Korver, which he wasn't.

I didn't bring that up because of their positions, but because of the money they are signed (and traded) for.

Its a distinct issue. This thread is about comparing Belinelli as Korver as players due to similarity of role.

You can't tell me there weren't cheaper PG options available. (which should have been only good for half a season) plus the team would be alot better/(cap)flexible going forward

There are dozens of threads in which to criticize the Hinrich signing, including every post game thread.

[HomoSapien]

But the point is, there's big-minute Marco (i.e., used right Marco) and Rip's bitch Marco (i.e., used wrong Marco). The only argument out there with even a semblance of defensibility (even including the complete overlooking of defense and diversity of skill set) in favor of Korver, requires that we blend the statistics of used wrong Marco with used right Marco. And even then, with that short-sighted analysis, its neck and neck.

Used in the way that we can all see is the proper way, being only inhibited by the inevitable Rip-spoiled-bitch meltdown if he's demoted, Marco is superior to Korver. Plus the obvious eye-test and defense thing (i.e. that other 50% of the game being overlooked).

This is spot on. Bringing in stats to discuss Belinelli in his tenure as a Bull are so misleading given the number of games he was given little to no playing time.

Some people are good reserves, and some people are good starters. Belinelli (sort of like Salmons) seems like the type of guy who needs real minutes to play well.

[PowerBull]

Its a distinct issue. This thread is about comparing Belinelli as Korver as players due to similarity of role.

But thats the point I don't understand because Beli and Korver are nothing alike beside both are white and can shoot. You could even argue that Hinrich and Belinelli have more in common as what they can do on the court then Beli and Korver.

But if the point of this thread is to who is more important to the team than my point is still valid: This should be Hinrich vs Korver because of their paycheck it was either one or the other. Belinelli was just an additional cheap signing.

[dice]

I dont think either are very good. But I don't see any justification for Korver being better than Belinelli. Korver has some of the worst lateral movement among any perimeter player in the NBA. What exactly are the defensive skills at which he excels over Marco?

i don't think it's skill so much as effort. kyle's a bit bigger and thus is a somewhat better rebounder and shotblocker, yet does not suffer compared to the "more mobile" belinelli in the steals department. so how do opponents perform against them? opponent TS% (and FTA/48):

2013: korver SF 43.1% (2.5), beli SG 52.6% (4.5)
2012: korver W 45.0% (3.7), beli SG 46.5% (5.0)
2011: korver W 42.8% (5.0), beli SG 52.9% (4.0)

Those numbers are good but misleading. Korver was always hid on defense with Deng and Brewer drawing the toughest assignments defensively.

that's fair. but there's still quite a discrepancy. and the korver #s have not suffered this year despite not having the same matchup luxuries

[Shill]

If we had Belinelli instead of Bogans in 2010, do we win the title?

[the ultimates]

@dice

Although the hawks don't have a Deng or Brewer they still minimize Kyle having to guard really good to elite wing players. Every coach in the league Kyle has had does the same thing with him.

[dice]

@dice

Although the hawks don't have a Deng or Brewer they still minimize Kyle having to guard really good to elite wing players. Every coach in the league Kyle has had does the same thing with him.

his utah numbers are significantly worse than they have been since. something has changed in his defensive game, be it effort, positioning, scheme whatever

also, he plays in a small starting lineup in atlanta. he pretty much has to guard the opponent's SF whoever that is. they're not putting freaking deshawn stephenson or DEVIN HARRIS (who they've been starting at SG and neither of whom are good defenders) on SFs to cover for kyle

[the ultimates]

@dice

Although the hawks don't have a Deng or Brewer they still minimize Kyle having to guard really good to elite wing players. Every coach in the league Kyle has had does the same thing with him.

his utah numbers are significantly worse than they have been since. something has changed in his defensive game, be it effort, positioning, scheme whatever

also, he plays in a small starting lineup in atlanta. he pretty much has to guard the opponent's SF whoever that is. they're not putting freaking deshawn stephenson or DEVIN HARRIS (who they've been starting at SG and neither of whom are good defenders) on SFs to cover for kyle

Nothing has changed in his defense its the fact he's on better defensive teams especially looking at the bigs who are behind him. We know Boozer, Millsapp and Okur weren't great defenders it looks even worse considering you have Horford, Smith, Gibson, Noah and Asik playing with Korver the last two seasons. Kyle is a big beneficiary because of this.

[Red Larrivee]

Korver is more of a bum slayer IMO.

Korver shot 45% from three last season against playoff teams. The year before he shot 40% from three against playoff teams. Some bumslayer he is.

He saved the Bulls time after time with his three-point shooting in the clutch, to start runs and his free throw-shooting. Belinelli might have more skills than him, but Korver has been a plus rotation player on every team he's played for, including starting on the Hawks this season.

Korver last season shot 44% from three, improved his defense and had a TS% of 60. Yes, the Bulls struggled against Miami because when you close out on Korver and stick him, all he provides is spacing, which is still good. But he wasn't the problem, he was just apart of a sum of players who lack a skil. If you put Korver on any title contender in the NBA, they immediately get better. He's a specialist who wins games.

If anything, the ideal situation would have been to somehow get rid of Rip, start Marco or Korver and play the other off the bench. You improve your three-point shooting and efficiency. Marco has more skills than Korver, but losing Korver still hurts, in addition to Asik.

[MVP Rose]

I think it gets underestimated how absolutely atrocious, awful, terrible, viciously pathetic Korver's defense was. He has to be one of the worst man-to-man defenders I've ever seen; granted he got better with Thibs, but was still terrible. Granted, it wasn't due to lack of effort but rather to how damn slow he is. Remember all those times he'd get beat off the dribble, a big man would step up, and the ball would get kicked out for an open shot or break down the defense completely? Yeah, the advanced stats won't blame that on Korver. But I'll never forget.

He was great in his role here, and I'll miss him as a spark-plug off the bench, but NO team that will ever win a championship will have Kyle Korver as a starting player. Ever. He's a specialty player, who needs special matchups to be effective. When teams zero in on him, Kyle can be taken out of the game. Notice how Miami completely shut him down when they wanted to. That's the difference in my mind between the two, stats be damned. From all indications of what I've seen of Belli so far, when teams man up on him and force him to dribble and make plays, he generally succeeds. Small sample size, but if he can sustain it, pretty easy to see why most believe he's an upgrade over Korver.

One thing for damn sure, I'll take Korver everyday of the week over Hinrich, even at his price. Imagine a bench of Nate, Marco, Korver, Taj, and a defensive minded C. Let the wings chuck and the front court maintains high quality defense. Move JB to the starters role..and that team is even better then what we have now. I wonder if our FO really didn't anticipate that Hinrich would be this bad. Poor move on their part..

[dice]

@dice

Although the hawks don't have a Deng or Brewer they still minimize Kyle having to guard really good to elite wing players. Every coach in the league Kyle has had does the same thing with him.

his utah numbers are significantly worse than they have been since. something has changed in his defensive game, be it effort, positioning, scheme whatever

also, he plays in a small starting lineup in atlanta. he pretty much has to guard the opponent's SF whoever that is. they're not putting freaking deshawn stephenson or DEVIN HARRIS (who they've been starting at SG and neither of whom are good defenders) on SFs to cover for kyle

Nothing has changed in his defense its the fact he's on better defensive teams especially looking at the bigs who are behind him. We know Boozer, Millsapp and Okur weren't great defenders it looks even worse considering you have Horford, Smith, Gibson, Noah and Asik playing with Korver the last two seasons. Kyle is a big beneficiary because of this.

so now it's not who he's guarding but who's backing him up?

what's the excuse for belinelli's much worse numbers despite playing with okafor, noah, and taj?

[the ultimates]

It does matter in the same way people talk about Carmelo's defense being better. Its funny his defense got better once Chandler came just like Anthony's defense got better in Denver with Martin, Camby and Anderson. Marco hasn't even played a full year with Noah and Taj but I don't see Thibs having to hide Marco on defense like he did with Korver.

[GMgoran]

If we had Belinelli instead of Bogans in 2010, do we win the title?

Yes.

[johnnyvann840]

It does matter in the same way people talk about Carmelo's defense being better. Its funny his defense got better once Chandler came just like Anthony's defense got better in Denver with Martin, Camby and Anderson. Marco hasn't even played a full year with Noah and Taj but I don't see Thibs having to hide Marco on defense like he did with Korver.

Carmelo's defense has really gone back to being atrocious since the first three weeks of the season. The Knicks are also below .500 since then. The Knicks played defense for 9 or 10 games to start the season and have been pretty awful since then. They are 26th in the league in opponents PPS and opponents FG%.

[Ice Man]

From all indications of what I've seen of Belli so far, when teams man up on him and force him to dribble and make plays, he generally succeeds.

Eh, regular season, and Belli is lightly regarded. In playoff basketball stick a good defender him, with a shot blocker lurking near the basket, and he'll be as quiet as a church mouse.

A different style that Korver but probably about equally good, plus he comes a whole lot cheaper. So that worked out well for the Bulls, I'm a Belli fan. But ... he is what he is, a great value for a $2 million player.

[GetBuLLish]

Don't know if this is new, but the Bulls are dead last in 3 pointers made.

Another objective fact that points to Marco being without question better for the Bulls than Korver.

[Italians in NBA]

Don't know if this is new, but the Bulls are dead last in 3 pointers made.

Another objective fact that points to Marco being without question better for the Bulls than Korver.

Korver is for sure a perfect pure shooter and I think he has one of the best shooting technique in the NBA. But, BUT when he was playing in Chicago WITHOUT Rose he was having worse percentages, less points and was by far less a "playmaker for the teammates than Marco. The Bulls are last in 3 points made? But, BUT they are very effective in the percentage (over 36%) being the 10th team. Rose is not playing at the moment and in the last season he was attempting more than four 3P per game. Without Rose Luol Deng has less opportunities to take his open shots from deep. Do you really think that without Rose the opponent teams defences are focusing on Hinrich or Robinson? So on what real fact are based your considerations?

And Marco in the 2011 playoffs had a more than decent series playing vs LA. He scored more than 9 PPG and was able to contain (not stopping him obviously, it's impossible) a player whose name is ...... Kobe.

Last year Korver without Rose was less efficent in using his skills. His percentages went down. It's just because he needs someone (a real playmaker) and a team's system that can use at best his great shooting abilities.

Marco in New Orleans was a perfect fit for Chris Paul who always loved Marco, praying him during all the last summer to play with him in LA. I'm sure that Marco near Rose will be a very effective complement, much more than Korver.

Post Scriptum: sorry for my kid's english but it's not my first language