Thibs Losing the Team (Pax blasts Van Gundy p11)

[SpinninHouse]

Like most people, I am incredibly disturbed by what I've seen lately. A few weeks back, many of us considered us legitimate title contenders. After a complete unraveling with no end in sight, many of us now think it's unlikely we'll even make the ECF's. In the game threads and post-game threads, a lot of fingers are being pointed all over the place. People are furious with Pau Gasol, Derrick Rose, Kirk Hinrich, GarPax, Thibs, etc.

And I agree we have player personnel issues, no question. But from my perspective - what I'm seeing is a coach that's completely lost his team. Our guys are totally unmotivated, we lose out on every loose ball, we give up offensive rebounds like it's our job, we constantly commit the most idiotic turnovers, the defensive lapses are never ending, and we're just generally playing uninspired, sloppy basketball. And the whole team is guilt of this. Pau, Hinrich, Derrick, Joakim, Brooks, Taj, etc. Every one.

What does this sound like to you? To me it's evidence that the players don't want to battle for Thibs any more. That he's lost them. And if this is true, there is no turning back once this happens. The only options are 1) Get a new coach or 2) Get new players.

With all that's been simmering for multiple years with Thibs fued with Gar Forman, the Derrick Rose Saga which has clearly incensed Thibs, and now the complete lack of effort and careless play we're witnessing -- has this finally boiled all the way over? There are a lot of variables at play. Thibs substitution patterns are totally egregious - running Butler in to the ground. Kirk Hinrich has been absolutely devastating all year long and Thibs continues to trot him out. Maybe the players are pissed?

What do you guys think? Does our recent play appear symptomatic of a coach that's lost the team? To me it does. But I'd love to get some discussion going on this.

[Bandit King]

The players have commented on tuning out on Thibbs numerous of times, and some have complained about his practices. If he keeps going at this rate he will be fired and with another team.

[Mech Engineer]

It is January and they went on a big winning streak. Timing was perfect to play bad considering the circumstances.

Watch out for the Hawks going on a losing streak soon.

[coldfish]

I had been mentioning a while ago that Thibs has potentially lost the team. All season this has been going on, if inconsistently. The team gets up for a game or two like Memphis or Houston but for the most part they sleepwalk through most games. Point blank, lots of guys who know what they should be doing on defense are not doing it. I have never seen people stand as flat footed on D under Thibs as I have seen this year. When someone knows what to do and still doesn't do it, that insubordination. Its not just one guy. Even Butler and Hinrich have been doing it.

There were some ominous negative comments from both Rose and Butler regarding Thibodeau during the preseason to boot.

I do have to say this:

The only options are 1) Get a new coach or 2) Get new players.

Its generally been my experience that its always 1 then 2. Management will change the coach and then when results are the same or worse, the players go. I really don't see any coach inspiring this particular group of players.

.......

Hopefully this is all a relatively meaningless rough patch in the middle of a season. I still think this is a very talented and deep team. They just aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing on the court and it sure appears to be by player choice for whatever reason. Hopefully they choose differently soon.

[AirP.]

“That’s something you do every day. When you shortcut that process — I’ve been around a long time — I know it doesn’t work. I’ve tried to make that clear. When you watch film, it tells you a lot. For the team to function well, everyone has to do their part.

Thibs - October 2014

Derrick Rose isn't upset with Tom Thibodeau's criticism of the Chicago Bulls, but he also doesn't agree with it.

“Not at all,’’ Rose said. “Everybody has their own opinion. As a coach, his standards are going to be high, very high, just knowing who he is. For the team, all we can do is get better every day, get the most out of every day and try to get better individually.’’

Rose - October 2014

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... Perfection

Someone who's been around for a while saw this coming before the season started(Thibs).

Never understood why people didn't get that alarmed at this story when it came out, Thib's coaching style is built on an overall system, when players are "numb" to him it's not going to work. Someone has changed and it's not Thibs. The "franchise player" wasn't buying in so what chance is it that the rest of the team does? Up till now I think everyone really looked to Deng, he's no longer in Chicago.

Players tuning a coach out, interesting when they're being paid millions of dollars to do what the coach asks of him.

[SpinninHouse]

Yeah what's so strange is watching every one not even try. Are they purposely trying to get him fired? Usually with a HC like Thibs, a guy will do what he's asked because he doesn't want to get benched. But when the entire team is rebelling, Thibs can't bench every one. I've never seen this from this particular group of guys.

[Ralphb07]

I had been mentioning a while ago that Thibs has potentially lost the team. All season this has been going on, if inconsistently. The team gets up for a game or two like Memphis or Houston but for the most part they sleepwalk through most games. Point blank, lots of guys who know what they should be doing on defense are not doing it. I have never seen people stand as flat footed on D under Thibs as I have seen this year. When someone knows what to do and still doesn't do it, that insubordination. Its not just one guy. Even Butler and Hinrich have been doing it.

There were some ominous negative comments from both Rose and Butler regarding Thibodeau during the preseason to boot.

I do have to say this:

The only options are 1) Get a new coach or 2) Get new players.

Its generally been my experience that its always 1 then 2. Management will change the coach and then when results are the same or worse, the players go. I really don't see any coach inspiring this particular group of players.

.......

Hopefully this is all a relatively meaningless rough patch in the middle of a season. I still think this is a very talented and deep team. They just aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing on the court and it sure appears to be by player choice for whatever reason. Hopefully they choose differently soon.

Unless we really fall this year. We're still a 50 win team. I think a new voice next season with a calmer approach might help the team. That is of course thibs doesn't right the ship.

I'm 34 and my bones aren't what they were at 23. I'd be pissed if in a month I didn't have back to back days off and was expecting one on Sunday but Thibs calls for practice. It's simply just changing his ways really imo. But can he do it?

We don't play til Thursday, I'd give the team today and tomorrow off and say come in early for shoot around on Thursday

[SpinninHouse]

I had been mentioning a while ago that Thibs has potentially lost the team. All season this has been going on, if inconsistently. The team gets up for a game or two like Memphis or Houston but for the most part they sleepwalk through most games. Point blank, lots of guys who know what they should be doing on defense are not doing it. I have never seen people stand as flat footed on D under Thibs as I have seen this year. When someone knows what to do and still doesn't do it, that insubordination. Its not just one guy. Even Butler and Hinrich have been doing it.

There were some ominous negative comments from both Rose and Butler regarding Thibodeau during the preseason to boot.

I do have to say this:

The only options are 1) Get a new coach or 2) Get new players.

Its generally been my experience that its always 1 then 2. Management will change the coach and then when results are the same or worse, the players go. I really don't see any coach inspiring this particular group of players.

.......

Hopefully this is all a relatively meaningless rough patch in the middle of a season. I still think this is a very talented and deep team. They just aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing on the court and it sure appears to be by player choice for whatever reason. Hopefully they choose differently soon.

Unless we really fall this I'd still a 50 win team. I think a new voice next season with a calmer approach might help the team. That is of course thibs doesn't right the ship.

I'm 34 and my bones aren't what they were at 23. I'd be pissed if in a month I didn't have back to back days off and was expecting one on Sunday but Thibs calls for practice. It's simply just changing his ways really imo. But can he do it?

We don't play til Thursday, I'd give the team today and tomorrow off and say come in early for shoot around on Thursday

I would too but Thibs scheduled practice for noon. Man, I'd love to get Hoiberg on board next year. Unless Thibs can turn this thing around. It's almost February so the clock is ticking.

[kuly1990]

K.C. Johnson ‏@KCJHoop 3m3 minutes ago

Bulls PR sends out update saying that practice has been called off.

[McBulls]

The person whose thoughts on this subject I'm curious about is Noah.

Noah is the penultimate team player. It's his essense as a basketball player. Lately he looks like a guy who is not enjoying playing the game and who is going through the motions, or is disinterested. Maybe it's just the effects of injuries, or, less likely, he is suddenly aging after winning DPOY last year, but I suspect there is more to it than that.

Obviously Noah won't publicise his opinions until he perceives all hope of internal, non-public, repair of team spirit is lost. But watch this guy's non-verbal behavior closely for dianosis of what is wrong with the team -- who is he clapping on the back, and who is he avoiding... Etc.

[MC3]

There are two options as coldfish said. But when you change coach in middle of season it cause shock to the team and the players. Will it be positive or negative shock depends on new coach.For instance let's go with assumption they choose Hoiberg. If Hoiberg is really that good coach I dont see problem players buying his methods which will turn into positive thing and will start play good as we can. But if he is good coach and players still dont buy his methods as we hear through media from players they tuned out just as they did with Thibs, it's time for trading players.

I dont think Thibs is bad coach. But it seems after 4 years this guys can't take military training drills anymore, their bodies just can't take that anymore. We have bunch of injured players trough last 4 years. Some of key players played through injuries. This is not anymore young athletic team full of hope and believe it was 2011 playing ass of it. You can't drill 34-years old and 31 years old players, and guy with 2 major career injury with 2 years pause and fear will he ever be back and just continue where did you stop 2011. + Tighting rotation because you dont trust rest of your player.

I sure support Thibs "buy in philosophy" but I dont know if drilling those key players, neglecting role others, having favorite sons out there at floor will get you there in this moment. I dont know if just coach who depends just hard-work with no real coaching skills will get you there.

[coldfish]

I would too but Thibs scheduled practice for noon. Man, I'd love to get Hoiberg on board next year. Unless Thibs can turn this thing around. It's almost February so the clock is ticking.

I don't know what the fascination with Hoiberg is. If Thibs goes, I think that Chicago should follow the Golden State model. Not the Steve Kerr thing. The "hire high quality veteran assistants who will actually be the ones running the team" thing. Chicago hasn't been too high on doing that in the past.

[BahamaBull]

Thibs lost the team.

Thats very clear...And it will be really hard for him to get it back. Players and coaching are not on the same page at all...This is more frustrating than when we play without Derrick...They have no passion, no energy...Its not because we are loosing...Its the way we are loosing.

All the main pieces are there...The core is there...But they are not clicking like they used to.

If that's really our window I will give Fred Hoiberg a call and shake it up...I know it is still January but the EC is ours to take and we are seeing the ship sink and we must do something about it. I really love Thibs but I want to win this so bad! And for some reason I dont feel like Thibs will lead us there...On the other hand, I love the way Fred coaches...I really think he will do good here.

But guess what? thats not going to happen...Thibs will stay here no matter what...and we must pray he can regain control of the team.

[musiqsoulchild]

In this one case, I think the team is lost.

The coach is HOF caliber in my humble opinion. There are some members on the team who want to get into the HOF without putting in the work.

[[Yoda]]

Thibs is an excellent assistant coach. He has a demeanor that comes off as tough love, do what you're suppose to do. This will only get you so far and will wear thin in a few years.

The Bulls need a coach with a voice (no pun intended). What I mean is, a coach that seems to be having fun and not hating his job every day. I always sit and wonder , how great a mind Doc Rivers would be with the Bulls.

Thibs has brought good things to the team, and led teams were under talented on paper to playoffs. However, the Bulls are healthy, minus a Noah injury here and Rose injury there, But the players are sitting there saying.. "Okay Coach, We are here ..We are NOW Ready to go.. what's your excuse?" (This is the feeling I get from the Bulls at the moment.)

[[Yoda]]

Thibs is an excellent assistant coach. He has a demeanor that comes off as tough love, do what you're suppose to do. This will only get you so far and will wear thin in a few years.

The Bulls need a coach with a voice (no pun intended). What I mean is, a coach that seems to be having fun and not hating his job every day. I always sit and wonder , how great a mind Doc Rivers would be with the Bulls.

Thibs has brought good things to the team, and led teams were under talented on paper to playoffs. However, the Bulls are healthy, minus a Noah injury here and Rose injury there, But the players are sitting there saying.. "Okay Coach, We are here ..We are NOW Ready to go.. what's your excuse?" (This is the feeling I get from the Bulls at the moment.)

[[Yoda]]

Thibs is an excellent assistant coach. He has a demeanor that comes off as tough love, do what you're suppose to do. This will only get you so far and will wear thin in a few years.

The Bulls need a coach with a voice (no pun intended). What I mean is, a coach that seems to be having fun and not hating his job every day. I always sit and wonder , how great a mind Doc Rivers would be with the Bulls.

Thibs has brought good things to the team, and led teams were under talented on paper to playoffs. However, the Bulls are healthy, minus a Noah injury here and Rose injury there, But the players are sitting there saying.. "Okay Coach, We are here ..We are NOW Ready to go.. what's your excuse?" (This is the feeling I get from the Bulls at the moment.)

[molepharmer]

If Thibs is losing the team, I don't think it's his fault; that is, because of his coaching manner. As possible evidence, Taj interview from less than a week ago...

“I guess you look at our offense, how we got so much firepower,” Gibson said. “And everybody’s elevated their game, too. We had a lot of guys that were just defenders, and then defenders turned [into] kind of scorers a little bit and feeling comfortable scoring the ball now. At times we kind of loosen up on defense, and that little bit of loosening up in the game … can really open up a can of worms for the other teams that really [hit] their stride and score points on us. And that’s been the little letdowns in the games, I think.”

“It’s going to happen sometimes when you’re feeling good about yourself,” he continued. “Everybody’s telling you, ‘You’re good, you’re good, you’re good, you’re good,” throwing things basically in your lap, [and] you kind of lose track of things.”....

"You look at how we play, how we start games, and how we play sometimes, we just think we're going to beat teams just because we got Chicago across our chest," Gibson said. - Friedell

Safe to say Thibs didn't give them that "We can win because we got Chicago across our chest." attitude. So maybe to combat that demeanor, currently Thibs is of the mindset to let these players get their brains beat in, hoping that at some point soon they'll decide to step up, not take it anymore and hit somebody (metaphorically). And until the team steps up, he's going to attempt to work that self-righteous smug off their faces.

[greenl]

I'm not sure I want to root for a bunch of players that don't want to play defense and work hard. Is any good coach not going to be demanding?

[kuly1990]

Thibs should stay, why should he go, he didnt lost the team, players lost the "team", why should Thibs go instead of any of the guys outthere, except Jimmy and Taj, who are great, and still play with that effort, as the others should!