The tough discussion to have about Joakim Noah

EastBayFJ · Post #1 » by **EastBayFJ** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:39 am

Starter material or first big off the bench ?

errisal · Post #2 » by **errisal** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:42 am

EastBayFJ wrote:Starter material or first big off the bench ?

A healthy Noah starts, a cranky kneed, broke ankle Noah comes off the bench. Hopefully, Thibs keeps him grounded until both knee and ankles are close to 100%.

Tenchi Ryu · Post #3 » by **Tenchi Ryu** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:48 am

We need to actually find out what's really going on. People here still think this is just Noah injured and just needs to get healthy, but everything we've seen is also signs of a degenerating knee. We don't know if Noah will be back or if he's on that big man career killer knee decline.

Chowda · Post #4 » by **Chowda** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:52 am

This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask...

Is Gasol really any slower than Boozer? If not, why don't we slide Gasol over to the 4 and re-anchor our defense with Noah at the 5. Obviously Noah needs to get healthy first, but I just don't see how Pau would be any worse at defending the high post and closing out on shooters than Boozer was. And that's the heart and soul of our problems, losing a healthy Noah at the 5.

But maybe I'm underestimating Boozer and blind to Pau's epic slog...

BeatDaCavs420 · Post #5 » by **BeatDaCavs420** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:53 am

Starter no question about it

He just needs to be healthy and when he is not on his game Thibs needs to learn to sit him and play either Niko or Gasol

EastBayFJ · Post #6 » by **EastBayFJ** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:54 am

Frankly , right now , this season , he's living off past glory.

He's not good enough to start on this team right now and isn't a more complete two way player to what Taj is

Pairing he and another lower volume guy (who is to make his mark as a wing defender ) in the 2nd unit with higher volume guys in Niko and Doug and defensive combo guard who can run pick and pop and make an open shot is perhaps a better way to go

EastBayFJ · Post #7 » by **EastBayFJ** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:55 am

And ....Taj is a much better fit with Pau and you have to have Pau starting

Think of the limiting , low volume ....of both Noah and MDJ on the floor

And then take into account the inconsistency of Rose

Both Noah and MDJ belong in the 2nd unit with a wing defender and another high volume efficient forward ( Niko ) and a balanced two way combo guard

Yeah ...not this season but I do see McDermott as ultimately being a great fit with Butler on the wing and Gibson at PF

Ultimately I see Niko as a 6th man extraordinaire , much in the way that Toni was , and our 3rd / 4th big will be an energy / defensive big man like Jo...or what Willie Cauley Stein projects as

[e] · Post #8 » by **[e]** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:56 am

Starter. Although I really wouldn't care if he came off the bench.

If Pau and Taj start meshing together, it might make sense to use Noah in a bench role. Noah was a stud when the offense ran through him, you could still do that with the second unit.

Making plays on offense always fuels your energy on the defensive end. Can't be coincidence that Noah wins DPOY the same season he has all those assists.

Mech Engineer · Post #9 » by **Mech Engineer** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:14 am

Taj is not a great fit either, IMO. If Pau plays like today when he looked like he had a little more spring in his step on tougher rebounds, Taj can play with him. Otherwise, the responsibilities on defense is very high on Taj or Joakim for that matter.

It is all about balance. It is just not the bigs either. It is about MDJ spacing on offense even if Joakim kills the spacing. MDJ probably balances out the spacing a little bit for Noah. Joakim never looks to score unlike any other player. That kind of tells his teammates to not relax and keep moving/get open unlike with Taj or Pau who are more opportunistic passers.

And, Joakim is smart on defense. He is not a guard/wing who has to bend his knees on defense. He is a big man who can play a little upright and not so much pressure on his knees. Joakim might never be as good as last year but I doubt he will be as bad as what he has looked until now. He will be better and he looked decent against Washington in the 1st half.

The goal is to hedge against Pau's defense being bad or being unable to rotate quickly for a rebound. I think Joakim can do that better sometimes based on match-up. Honestly, it shouldn't matter who starts but one of them has to play less based on match-ups.

Shill · Post #10 » by **Shill** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:16 am

Chowda wrote:This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask...

Is Gasol really any slower than Boozer? If not, why don't we slide Gasol over to the 4 and re-anchor our defense with Noah at the 5. Obviously Noah needs to get healthy first, but I just don't see how Pau would be any worse at defending the high post and closing out on shooters than Boozer was. And that's the heart and soul of our problems, losing a healthy Noah at the 5.

But maybe I'm underestimating Boozer and blind to Pau's epic slog...

This has been discussed in other threads.

It's a theory worthy of consideration. I'd definitely try it if our defensive issues continue to fester.

errisal · Post #11 » by **errisal** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:18 am

There's only one real life answer to this question. When he gets ready to come back he will start. He's a Thibs guy and we all know Thibs plays his guys. Ask the same about why Kirk is in the rotation and the answer becomes the same, he's a Thibs guy. Dunleavy is a Thibs guy and will get the majority of minutes at SF as long as he's healthy. There are certain things that WON'T change as long as you remain in the Thibs circle.

League Circles · Post #12 » by **League Circles** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:29 am

Backup C. He could also start, but either way he and Pau should roughly split the minutes at C.

The way I figure, Rose needs spacing that Pau provides better, plus Rose is a better defender than Brooks so have noah play with brooks.

These should be the lineups:

Gasol
Taj
MDJ
Butler
Rose

Noah
Niko
McD
Snell
Brooks

EastBayFJ · Post #13 » by **EastBayFJ** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:38 am

Mech Engineer wrote:Taj is not a great fit either, IMO. If Pau plays like today when he looked like he had a little more spring in his step on tougher rebounds, Taj can play with him. Otherwise, the responsibilities on defense is very high on Taj or Joakim for that matter.

It is all about balance. It is just not the bigs either. It is about MDJ spacing on offense even if Joakim kills the spacing. MDJ probably balances out the spacing a little bit for Noah. Joakim never looks to score unlike any other player. That kind of tells his teammates to not relax and keep moving/get open unlike with Taj or Pau who are more opportunistic passers.

And, Joakim is smart on defense. He is not a guard/wing who has to bend his knees on defense. He is a big man who can play a little upright and not so much pressure on his knees. Joakim might never be as good as last year but I doubt he will be as bad as what he has looked until now. He will be better and he looked decent against Washington in the 1st half.

The goal is to hedge against Pau's defense being bad or being unable to rotate quickly for a rebound. I think Joakim can do that better sometimes based on match-up. Honestly, it shouldn't matter who starts but one of them has to play less based on match-ups.

Yeah.

Doug McDermott is a big piece to this puzzle IMO as is Jimmy Butler , but frankly , in an ideal world I would like to see McDermott being as capable as he was billed and what we thought he would be and have Jimmy lower his volume and concentrate more on the defensive load , with Taj at PF , if , McDermott had have proved himself / proves himself worthy of playing 28m a night at the SF spot and taking around 12 to 14 shots a game

bullsRlife · Post #14 » by **bullsRlife** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:25 am

Have him come off the bench when he makes his return, and see how that works out.

Why does he HAVE to start? We've never seen him come off the bench. Maybe he turns into a beast with him and Niko playing together, and it turns us into the scariest team in the league.

No one can say for sure what route to go, because we've never seen Noah come off the bench. Why not give it a try for now?

And Noah Fs our offense up bad, and it affects Derrick and Jimmy.

jc23 · Post #15 » by **jc23** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:33 am

errisal wrote:
EastBayFJ wrote:Starter material or first big off the bench ?

A healthy Noah starts, a cranky kneed, broke ankle Noah comes off the bench. Hopefully, Thibs keeps him grounded until both knee and ankles are close to 100%.

agreed, its pretty simple. Let Jo come off the bench and keep him on limited minute stretches. If he starts to improve raise his minutes, if he keeps on improving put him back as a starter.

But still make sure he is getting some run with the starters the whole time so he keeps a good chemsitry with them.

Johnny Kilroy · Post #16 » by **Johnny Kilroy** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:36 am

i've been waiting for another ring since 98. if it happens without jo it won't be the same. his knee is f'd up. my bet is he gets microfacture surgery at the end of the season. he was first team all nba last year. an incredible achievement. he has a shelf life, just like anyone else. but i'm hoping for the best.

bullsRlife · Post #17 » by **bullsRlife** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:36 am

jc23 wrote:
errisal wrote:
EastBayFJ wrote:Starter material or first big off the bench ?

A healthy Noah starts, a cranky kneed, broke ankle Noah comes off the bench. Hopefully, Thibs keeps him grounded until both knee and ankles are close to 100%.

agreed, its pretty simple. Let Jo come off the bench and keep him on limited minute stretches. If he starts to improve raise his minutes, if he keeps on improving put him back as a starter.

But still make sure he is getting some run with the starters the whole time so he keeps a good chemsitry with them.

But what about if he's a beast coming off the bench, Taj and Gasol are beasting in the starting lineup, and we're beating teams left and right?

Why can't we just keep it that way?

Post #18 » by **RedBulls23** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:44 am

Tenchi Ryu wrote:We need to actually find out what's really going on. People here still think this is just Noah injured and just needs to get healthy, but everything we've seen is also signs of a degenerating knee. We don't know if Noah will be back or if he's on that big man career killer knee decline.

Did they ever use the term degenerating medically? I don't think they did.

logical_art · Post #19 » by **logical_art** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:57 am

He's obviously starting material. That doesn't mean we should start him though.

I'd love to see him coming off the bench.

The problem is that with Hinrich also playing big minutes off the bench, that's not a lot of offense. Still I think its worth it.

Post #20 » by **RedBulls23** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:09 am

logical_art wrote:He's obviously starting material. That doesn't mean we should start him though.

I'd love to see him coming off the bench.

The problem is that with Hinrich also playing big minutes off the bench, that's not a lot of offense. Still I think its worth it.

I'll be interested to see how "big" Kirks minutes are once Dunleavy is back. Thibs looks like he is trusting Snell more and more, so I won't be surprised to see Kirk play around 15 mins or so.

Hell if Jimmy doesn't get into foul trouble, I doubt Kirk breaks 20 for last nights game and that's without Dun Dun.