Jimmy Butler's maturation

Krazy!!! · Post #21 » by **Krazy!!!** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 2:54 pm

He's bringing some of of what #23 used to provide for the team (not that Butler is in ANY way Michael Jordan).

Until Rose returns to the lineup....I'm excited to see what the Bulls will do on the court. Not that I can get most of the preseaon games....but when does the first game of the preseason start?

Chi · Post #22 » by **Chi** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:10 pm

Thanks for this OP... We need more of this around here...

Chi town · Post #23 » by **Chi town** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:13 pm

MVP. Jimmy will get one.

Fl_Flash · Post #24 » by **Fl_Flash** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:18 pm

Krazy!!! wrote:He's bringing some of of what #23 used to provide for the team (not that Butler is in ANY way Michael Jordan).

Until Rose returns to the lineup....I'm excited to see what the Bulls will do on the court. Not that I can get most of the preseaon games....but when does the first game of the preseason start?

For the Bulls it's Tuesday, October 6th @ 8pm eastern. For the league - I believe preseason starts tonight. Clipper and Nuggets.

bulliedog8 · Post #25 » by **bulliedog8** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:21 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:The difference is that Rose was groomed to do this, lived a sheltered life and was GIVEN these oppertunities, got a scolarship and everyone BELIEVED in him. He cheated his way thru one sham year at Memphis and babied by Calapari.

Butler had to go to junior college before he got to Marquette. He's fueled by the fact no one believed in him and he really earned it on his own and made believers out of doubters.

Rose never really had that challenge, he doesn't have that drive to prove people wrong that Jimmy does.

Jimmy stuck around for a degree too, he was told there's no guarantee the NBA works out.

Rose came from the south side of chicago. How is that not challenging? How did he not have anyone to prove wrong?

Butler "stuck around for a degree" because he just wasnt good enough to make the league. He was a late bloomer (though after his performance against Melo, it was obvious he would be a star one day once given the chance).

Rose really must have hurt some people feelings that much huh?

Edit: Also, Butler will surpass Harden for top SG in the league. But unfortunately because Butler doesnt have "his own" team like Harden, he probably wont get the same 27 6 6 stats that harden got so harden will be considered better by the public. Though Jimmy is clearly better at D, even in his down year on D last year, and he will officially surpass Harden offensively this year. Butler is the truth. If Rose can finally stay healthy, Bulls have the best backcourt in the nba.

Post #26 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:26 pm

For Jimmy Butler, every year is a contract year. Which I mean in the best possible way.

Post #27 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:27 pm

bulliedog8 wrote:Rose came from the south side of chicago. How is that not challenging? How did he not have anyone to prove wrong?

Clearly, he meant in basketball terms -- where Rose was a national-level star early on, and Jimmy the #57 ranked Texas player the year of his HS graduation.

Setting Rose aside (as this is a Butler thread), I generally am skeptical of the overcoming hurdles concept. We all know plenty of kids who faced difficulties and grew up to be clowns. And plenty of kids who had nice, comfortable childhoods and who became high achievers. I mean, MJ did not grow up rich, but he grew up in a good family, with plenty to eat, and aside from that famous instance of being cut from his high school team as a soph basketball came easily to him. He started Day 1 at North Carolina and was recognized even then as a future pro. And he did not lack for motivation, to understate.

But in Iimmy's case ... it's hard not to connect his extraordinary childhood, his lack of being a basketball star in high school, his needing to play 4 years in college, and his early bench years on the Bulls as a late draft pick with what appears to be extraordinary motivation. Even I confess to making that link.

mj234eva · Post #28 » by **mj234eva** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:37 pm

22-23 ppg, 6-7 boards, 4-5 assists, and a couple steals. I think he can do it!

Post #29 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:42 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-confidential/2015/09/jimmy-butler-a-top-10-player/

Outstanding piece here by Mark K

Really good. Great analytics and while Mark K obviously is a fan (and makes that clear), he doesn't gloss over Jimmy's imperfections. Yes, there is room for improvement.

mj234eva · Post #30 » by **mj234eva** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:44 pm

Ice Man wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-confidential/2015/09/jimmy-butler-a-top-10-player/

Outstanding piece here by Mark K

Really good. Great analytics and while Mark K obviously is a fan (and makes that clear), he doesn't gloss over Jimmy's imperfections. Yes, there is room for improvement.

You know that is Mark K, from this very site?

Post #31 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:48 pm

mj234eva wrote:You know that is Mark K, from this very site?

Yup. He posts pretty well too. :-)

Post #32 » by **Payt10** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:56 pm

I think he has a chance to be MVP of the league this year. I really do. If he can improve his facilitating skills and handle the ball more, he will have a shot to put up some triple doubles.

Post #33 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:58 pm

Payt10 wrote:I think he has a chance to be MVP of the league this year. I really do. If he can improve his facilitating skills and handle the ball more, he will have a shot to put up some triple doubles.

Gotta improve his D and get that back to previous levels, then. Because if he is to be MVP, I don't see him doing that by being a Top 5 scorer. It would be in recognition of an all-around game. And of course, that would mean the Bulls would need to win 60+ games.

ptpablo · Post #34 » by **ptpablo** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 3:59 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-confidential/2015/09/jimmy-butler-a-top-10-player/

Outstanding piece here by Mark K

Honestly Mark.. this is one of the best pieces on the Bulls I've read in some time. So well written, well researched and put together. Well done, sir.

Was going to make a thread about it but just put in this one.

I agree, that was fun to read.

ptpablo · Post #35 » by **ptpablo** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 4:02 pm

Ultimately a 3 and D wing next to him would be perfect. McD and Snell's chance is coming up and hopefully one of them sticks. Dunleavy to bench after he returns playing 16-20 is about right for him as he ages. So many hopes this year.

bulliedog8 · Post #36 » by **bulliedog8** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 4:26 pm

Ice Man wrote:
bulliedog8 wrote:Rose came from the south side of chicago. How is that not challenging? How did he not have anyone to prove wrong?

Clearly, he meant in basketball terms -- where Rose was a national-level star early on, and Jimmy the #57 ranked Texas player the year of his HS graduation.

Setting Rose aside (as this is a Butler thread), I generally am skeptical of the overcoming hurdles concept. We all know plenty of kids who faced difficulties and grew up to be clowns. And plenty of kids who had nice, comfortable childhoods and who became high achievers. I mean, MJ did not grow up rich, but he grew up in a good family, with plenty to eat, and aside from that famous instance of being cut from his high school team as a soph basketball came easily to him. He started Day 1 at North Carolina and was recognized even then as a future pro. And he did not lack for motivation, to understate.

But in Iimmy's case ... it's hard not to connect his extraordinary childhood, his lack of being a basketball star in high school, his needing to play 4 years in college, and his early bench years on the Bulls as a late draft pick with what appears to be extraordinary motivation. Even I confess to making that link.

He just wasnt that good then (though being ranked 57th in texas, I guarantee he was a star still, just not nationally, but locally).

He definitely did use all that as motivation to surpass his "potential", aka the limit people love to put on these guys. Im glad we drafted him. I hadnt heard of him until draft night, but knew he was gonna be special (as did a lot of other bulls fans too) after that Melo game of his. Plus his playoff performance was his coming out party, unfortunately his injury plagued season hurt him.

Rose has motivation too. Not have his kid grow up poor and without a dad. Everyone has different motivations to improve. I dont care what they are nor if they tell the public. If roses motivation is getting a big payday? Good, that will help the team out because he wants to be and play like a max player. If Butlers motivation is being overlooked? Good, now he will work hard to show everyone they were wrong about him

LadyBullsfan · Post #37 » by **LadyBullsfan** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 4:51 pm

Fl_Flash wrote:
Krazy!!! wrote:He's bringing some of of what #23 used to provide for the team (not that Butler is in ANY way Michael Jordan).

Until Rose returns to the lineup....I'm excited to see what the Bulls will do on the court. Not that I can get most of the preseaon games....but when does the first game of the preseason start?

For the Bulls it's Tuesday, October 6th @ 8pm eastern. For the league - I believe preseason starts tonight. Clipper and Nuggets.

Crap Cubs and Bulls on the same night?!?

mj234eva · Post #38 » by **mj234eva** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 5:02 pm

From Mark's piece:

Contested pull up jumpers are a must for the superstars of the game, as is isolation scoring. Again, this certainly wasn't a strength for Butler, and most definitely an aspect of play that requires expansion. 97 players in the league last season scored 50 or more points from isolation plays, as per NBA.com. Of these players, Butler would rank 72nd in points per possession (0.81 PPP).

In contrast, despite his overall struggles and scoring inefficiencies, one area that Derrick Rose continued to excel was his isolation scoring. Using the same data parameters, Rose would place 10th overall, converting 1.05 points per possession and ranking in the 90.2 percentile of all isolation scorers. You can now begin to understand why Tom Thibodeau would often have Derrick Rose as the closer over the overall more efficient Butler - he was simply a better one-on-one scorer.

There was a thread that asked "Even if Derrick Rose is at full health next season, should Jimmy Butler be the first scoring option," the above is why I do not believe he should be.

However, re: the bold, if he shows vast improvement in his iso and mid-range (pull-up) game this coming season, I think I'd be behind the idea of Jimmy as a #1. As it currently stands, though, he's not a #1 option.

Krazy!!! · Post #39 » by **Krazy!!!** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 5:13 pm

LadyBullsfan wrote:
Fl_Flash wrote:
Krazy!!! wrote:He's bringing some of of what #23 used to provide for the team (not that Butler is in ANY way Michael Jordan).

Until Rose returns to the lineup....I'm excited to see what the Bulls will do on the court. Not that I can get most of the preseaon games....but when does the first game of the preseason start?

For the Bulls it's Tuesday, October 6th @ 8pm eastern. For the league - I believe preseason starts tonight. Clipper and Nuggets.

Crap Cubs and Bulls on the same night?!?

I feel your pain...I'm a Mets fan.

Krazy!!! · Post #40 » by **Krazy!!!** » Fri Oct 2, 2015 5:15 pm

mj234eva wrote:From Mark's piece:

Contested pull up jumpers are a must for the superstars of the game, as is isolation scoring. Again, this certainly wasn't a strength for Butler, and most definitely an aspect of play that requires expansion. 97 players in the league last season scored 50 or more points from isolation plays, as per NBA.com. Of these players, Butler would rank 72nd in points per possession (0.81 PPP).

In contrast, despite his overall struggles and scoring inefficiencies, one area that Derrick Rose continued to excel was his isolation scoring. Using the same data parameters, Rose would place 10th overall, converting 1.05 points per possession and ranking in the 90.2 percentile of all isolation scorers. You can now begin to understand why Tom Thibodeau would often have Derrick Rose as the closer over the overall more efficient Butler - he was simply a better one-on-one scorer.

There was a thread that asked "Even if Derrick Rose is at full health next season, should Jimmy Butler be the first scoring option," the above is why I do not believe he should be.

However, re: the bold, if he shows vast improvement in his iso and mid-range (pull-up) game this coming season, I think I'd be behind the idea of Jimmy as a #1. As it currently stands, though, he's not a #1 option.

I'm an advocate of which of the two players have it going on any particular night. If it's Rose....then we ride on Rose's coattails...if it's Butler then we lean on Butler.