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OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★

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Who are you voting for?

Trump
18
22%
Hillary
41
50%
Jill Stein
7
9%
Gary Johnson
3
4%
Other
4
5%
Not Voting
9
11%
 
Total votes: 82

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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1881 » by TimRobbins » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:46 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:The policy direction that Trump is promising is inherently anti-immigrant and anti-minority.

Systemic racism is also racism.


Anti unskilled immigration you mean. I never heard Trump say we're going to cut the number of scientists, engineers, entrepreneur or basketball players who want to immigrate.

Deporting unskilled illegal immigrants has nothing to do with race. It's an economic policy and a very smart one.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1882 » by biggestbullsfan » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:05 pm

I'm definitely losing a lot of respect for certain posters with this thread. I wish we would shut it down and get back to Bulls Basketball.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1883 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:10 pm

TimRobbins wrote:It's very easy to blame Hillary's loss on "racism" and "misogyny". IT's very easy not to take any responsibility. It's a lot more difficult to do some introspection and realize Hillary was a terrible candidate. The US isn't a monarchy and there's a reason we have term limits. You do not get to bypass term limit by having your spouse run for presidency.

It's also very easy to say "let's not deport anybody" and somehow say deporting illegal immigrants is "racist". But what about the thousands of communities these immigrants decimated? What about the Millions of unemployed we have here? Who speaks for them? The reality is that this country can only produce a finite amount of unskilled jobs. When you allow millions of unskilled workers into an economy that cannot supply enough jobs, you're going to have a bunch of unemployed and very frustrated people. When you don't have enough jobs, you need to first take care of the native population. With all the sympathy I have to illegal immigrants (who are decent people who just want to better their lives), if deporting them means less unemployment for natives, it HAS to be done. Yes, it's going to be difficult, but my sympathies go to those who are hopelessly unemployed before those who came in illegally.

Being righteous and politically correct at the expense of others is always easy. Making the difficult decisions is hard.


Hillary was a bad candidate, sure. It's also immaterial.

47% of people in this country heard Trump denounce the father of an American hero for being Muslim, and then physically checked the box next to his name as an endorsement of his qualification to the most powerful position in the world.

That is what disgusts people. Hillary was a bad candidate, but a plurailty of people in this country voted for a racist and that's why he's in office. As bad as you think Hillary is, you have to endorse a racist to keep her out of office.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1884 » by TimRobbins » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:15 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:Hillary was a bad candidate, sure. It's also immaterial.

47% of people in this country heard Trump denounce the father of an American hero for being Muslim, and then physically checked the box next to his name as an endorsement of his qualification to the most powerful position in the world.

That is what disgusts people. Hillary was a bad candidate, but a plurailty of people in this country voted for a racist and that's why he's in office. As bad as you think Hillary is, you have to endorse a racist to keep her out of office.


First of all, Hillary is also racist. She's not dumb enough to externalize it, but the Podesta emails were pretty clear about her thoughts on blacks and latinos.

If you had 10 candidates and Trump was chosen I may be inclined to agree with your point. The way I see it - Trump is irrelevant. The people voted AGAINST Hillary and her cronies. Not for Trump.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1885 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:21 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:It's very easy to blame Hillary's loss on "racism" and "misogyny". IT's very easy not to take any responsibility. It's a lot more difficult to do some introspection and realize Hillary was a terrible candidate. The US isn't a monarchy and there's a reason we have term limits. You do not get to bypass term limit by having your spouse run for presidency.

It's also very easy to say "let's not deport anybody" and somehow say deporting illegal immigrants is "racist". But what about the thousands of communities these immigrants decimated? What about the Millions of unemployed we have here? Who speaks for them? The reality is that this country can only produce a finite amount of unskilled jobs. When you allow millions of unskilled workers into an economy that cannot supply enough jobs, you're going to have a bunch of unemployed and very frustrated people. When you don't have enough jobs, you need to first take care of the native population. With all the sympathy I have to illegal immigrants (who are decent people who just want to better their lives), if deporting them means less unemployment for natives, it HAS to be done. Yes, it's going to be difficult, but my sympathies go to those who are hopelessly unemployed before those who came in illegally.

Being righteous and politically correct at the expense of others is always easy. Making the difficult decisions is hard.


Hillary was a bad candidate, sure. It's also immaterial.

47% of people in this country heard Trump denounce the father of an American hero for being Muslim, and then physically checked the box next to his name as an endorsement of his qualification to the most powerful position in the world.

That is what disgusts people. Hillary was a bad candidate, but a plurailty of people in this country voted for a racist and that's why he's in office. As bad as you think Hillary is, you have to endorse a racist to keep her out of office.

I'm pretty sure nowhere near 47% of the people voted for trump.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1886 » by The 6ft Hurdle » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:24 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Hillary was a bad candidate, sure. It's also immaterial.

47% of people in this country heard Trump denounce the father of an American hero for being Muslim, and then physically checked the box next to his name as an endorsement of his qualification to the most powerful position in the world.

That is what disgusts people. Hillary was a bad candidate, but a plurailty of people in this country voted for a racist and that's why he's in office. As bad as you think Hillary is, you have to endorse a racist to keep her out of office.


First of all, Hillary is also racist. She's not dumb enough to externalize it, but the Podesta emails were pretty clear about her thoughts on blacks and latinos.

If you had 10 candidates and Trump was chosen I may be inclined to agree with your point. The way I see it - Trump is irrelevant. The people voted AGAINST Hillary and her cronies. Not for Trump.

I can't find anything about HIlary's racism other than the right-wing echo chamber.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1887 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:31 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
coldfish wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The problem I have with the "Well, the percentage of white's is the same as Romney!" notion, is that Romney was a very qualified Governor, who by all accounts was a great person (Mormon). There were reasons to vote for that guy.

It should be rather alarming and/or telling that the white vote pretty broke the same way despite the seismic difference in candidate quality and character.

There was a lot of talk of the supposed "moderate" right that couldn't stomach voting for Trump. Obviously that was bull.

And don't even get me started on the Evangelicals...


What is funny is that Romney lost with that percentage. If you look at the numbers, Trump actually did better with minorities than Romney. Beyond that, the candidate quality between 2012 and 2016 for the democrats was also "seismic". Democrats don't want to hear this but apparently Hillary was driving away people even faster than Trump was.

Democrats have their heads in the sand on the racism thing. That's all they want to see. This election had a race based component, but that isn't what flipped it. As I have been saying, what flipped this election was a number of democratic strongholds that strongly went for Obama (meaning they aren't racist) switching to go for Trump. It was largely economic based.

Instead of having a discussion about the real why's and policy directions, we have this constant discussion about racism that had virtually nothing to do with the outcome of the election.


The policy direction that Trump is promising is inherently anti-immigrant and anti-minority.

Systemic racism is also racism.


OK, let's discuss his general policy discussions.

Immigration: He is clearly against illegal immigrants. He hasn't outlined much of a policy at all for legal immigrants. Illegal immigration creates a supply of cheap labor which suppresses wages for low skilled workers. Given that in many cases these are also minorities, this is not inherently racist. All of that being said, immigration on its whole is beneficial to the greater economy. Personally, I have a huge issue with ILLEGAL immigration on two fronts:
- It creates a second class group of people without the full rights and benefits of being a citizen who can be exploited.
- When presidents pick and choose which laws they enforce, then they become dictators. Its a really slippery slope.

Trade reform: The intent is to get more jobs for poor and middle class people who again are minorities. Not racist. Beneficial to the greater economy? Interesting debate.

Banning muslims: An immigrant from Afghanistan is far more likely to carry out a domestic terror attack than one from, say, Denmark. With that said, this policy is inherently racist as it is using statistics to paint an entire ethnic group. Beyond that, immigrants from Afghanistan are still pretty unlikely to carry out an attack.

Infrastructure spending: Not racist. Technically disproportionately benefits poor and middle class. Again, actually helps minorities more than white people statistically. Is it worth the additional debt though?

Repeal and replace obamacare: This hurts the working poor getting heavily subsidized health care from the government. Helps small business owners. A lot depends on what the "replace" is. Given the statistical distribution of minorities, this likely is not pro-minority.

Global isolationism: Not racist. Again, would technically free up money used for defense for domestic programs which disproportionately benefit minorities. Would this really be a good idea though?

I'm sure I am missing something. With that said, Trump's policies overall seem to benefit poor african americans more than anyone. . . . if they work. A lot of these things are aimed at helping poor and middle class people get jobs. With that said, if implemented poorly this could send the whole world economy in the toilet.

I just wish we could have a little deeper conversation about this than shutting down every discussion by shouting "racism".

As a side note, the biggest issue here is that Trump is blatantly anti-non American. He isn't trying to hide that. He is putting america and americans first and if he is successful, non americans will not benefit. A lot of the global angst is based around that. Not ever really discussed but important is just how much areas like Western Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. benefit from the global economic system that the US subsidizes. Trump is threatening to take those subsidies away.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1888 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:57 pm

coldfish wrote:I'm sure I am missing something. With that said, Trump's policies overall seem to benefit poor african americans more than anyone. . . . if they work. A lot of these things are aimed at helping poor and middle class people get jobs. With that said, if implemented poorly this could send the whole world economy in the toilet.

I just wish we could have a little deeper conversation about this than shutting down every discussion by shouting "racism".

As a side note, the biggest issue here is that Trump is blatantly anti-non American. He isn't trying to hide that. He is putting america and americans first and if he is successful, non americans will not benefit. A lot of the global angst is based around that. Not ever really discussed but important is just how much areas like Western Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. benefit from the global economic system that the US subsidizes. Trump is threatening to take those subsidies away.


Yes. The one thing that is very different, perhaps most different, between Trump and HRC/previous presidents, is that Trump enthusiastically wants to benefit America at the expense of the world (which I have mixed feelings about - I think it's sort of morally wrong but of course if it works would benefit all Americans), whereas most of our leaders pander more to globalization and people everywhere (especially HRC types).

IMO, we need somewhat more protectionist trade policies for several reasons. It shouldn't be that controversial. America is the world's best market for producers worldwide. When you want to set up shop in the nicest shopping malls, you pay the highest rents. Also, we often protect countries we are not obligated to. IMO, the world, and not us, should pay for that and import tariffs are IMO the proper way to do it.

It will also drive up prices on consumer goods that we all waste our money on. This will cause Americans to buy less crap and save more money, which we are in desperate, desperate need of.

Import tariffs also would allow us to lower other types of taxes which are inherently worse IMO, like income tax, corporate taxes, etc.

Interstate commerce should be inherently advantageous vs international IMO. After all, this nation got together and agreed on national policy and got our relative **** together (I'm talking about the creation of our nation, the constitution, etc). We should encourage making and trading our own stuff amongst each other, and somewhat provide some disincentives to international trade. The whole world being too dependent on international trade reduces everyone's self sufficiency and sovereignty, and hurts the environment. Sure it can give the benefit of more goods at lower cost, but IMO that has got to be super low priority. If an iphone costs $2000 after Trump has his way, so be it. Nobody needs a new one.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1889 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:18 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:It's very easy to blame Hillary's loss on "racism" and "misogyny". IT's very easy not to take any responsibility. It's a lot more difficult to do some introspection and realize Hillary was a terrible candidate. The US isn't a monarchy and there's a reason we have term limits. You do not get to bypass term limit by having your spouse run for presidency.

It's also very easy to say "let's not deport anybody" and somehow say deporting illegal immigrants is "racist". But what about the thousands of communities these immigrants decimated? What about the Millions of unemployed we have here? Who speaks for them? The reality is that this country can only produce a finite amount of unskilled jobs. When you allow millions of unskilled workers into an economy that cannot supply enough jobs, you're going to have a bunch of unemployed and very frustrated people. When you don't have enough jobs, you need to first take care of the native population. With all the sympathy I have to illegal immigrants (who are decent people who just want to better their lives), if deporting them means less unemployment for natives, it HAS to be done. Yes, it's going to be difficult, but my sympathies go to those who are hopelessly unemployed before those who came in illegally.

Being righteous and politically correct at the expense of others is always easy. Making the difficult decisions is hard.


Hillary was a bad candidate, sure. It's also immaterial.

47% of people in this country heard Trump denounce the father of an American hero for being Muslim, and then physically checked the box next to his name as an endorsement of his qualification to the most powerful position in the world.

That is what disgusts people. Hillary was a bad candidate, but a plurailty of people in this country voted for a racist and that's why he's in office. As bad as you think Hillary is, you have to endorse a racist to keep her out of office.

I'm pretty sure nowhere near 47% of the people voted for trump.


47% of voters. Sorry.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1890 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:19 pm

Mark K wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Good enough. I was wrong to criticize them. Stay peaceful and speak your mind all night long then.

I understand why so many don't want to wait. Are people afraid that Trump is going to start signing executive orders on inauguration day to take away civil rights, hunt down and deport 15 million illegal aliens, build a wall, take health insurance away from 20 million people, ban gay marriage, abortion and start bombing countries he doesn't like. It doesn't work that way and there would be a revolution if he tried.


It's cool to say all these thing won't happen, but the man just won an election spouting off all those things you just mentioned. And you wonder why people were protesting? You just listed it!

They're protesting because your country is not united. It's the Divided States of America, and people are appalled that a man that said so much vicious ****, the stuff you listed, which targets so many minority groups, was able to become the most powerful man in the world.


The time to protest that was at the ballot on Tuesday. Point being, we cannot change the result, so we are only further dividing people.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1891 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:24 pm

League Circles wrote:
coldfish wrote:I'm sure I am missing something. With that said, Trump's policies overall seem to benefit poor african americans more than anyone. . . . if they work. A lot of these things are aimed at helping poor and middle class people get jobs. With that said, if implemented poorly this could send the whole world economy in the toilet.

I just wish we could have a little deeper conversation about this than shutting down every discussion by shouting "racism".

As a side note, the biggest issue here is that Trump is blatantly anti-non American. He isn't trying to hide that. He is putting america and americans first and if he is successful, non americans will not benefit. A lot of the global angst is based around that. Not ever really discussed but important is just how much areas like Western Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. benefit from the global economic system that the US subsidizes. Trump is threatening to take those subsidies away.


Yes. The one thing that is very different, perhaps most different, between Trump and HRC/previous presidents, is that Trump enthusiastically wants to benefit America at the expense of the world (which I have mixed feelings about - I think it's sort of morally wrong but of course if it works would benefit all Americans), whereas most of our leaders pander more to globalization and people everywhere (especially HRC types).

IMO, we need somewhat more protectionist trade policies for several reasons. It shouldn't be that controversial. America is the world's best market for producers worldwide. When you want to set up shop in the nicest shopping malls, you pay the highest rents. Also, we often protect countries we are not obligated to. IMO, the world, and not us, should pay for that and import tariffs are IMO the proper way to do it.

It will also drive up prices on consumer goods that we all waste our money on. This will cause Americans to buy less crap and save more money, which we are in desperate, desperate need of.

Import tariffs also would allow us to lower other types of taxes which are inherently worse IMO, like income tax, corporate taxes, etc.

Interstate commerce should be inherently advantageous vs international IMO. After all, this nation got together and agreed on national policy and got our relative **** together (I'm talking about the creation of our nation, the constitution, etc). We should encourage making and trading our own stuff amongst each other, and somewhat provide some disincentives to international trade. The whole world being too dependent on international trade reduces everyone's self sufficiency and sovereignty, and hurts the environment. Sure it can give the benefit of more goods at lower cost, but IMO that has got to be super low priority. If an iphone costs $2000 after Trump has his way, so be it. Nobody needs a new one.


Right this minute, my company is shipping parts to Brazil that we normally ship to North Carolina. The reason is that the global corporation that got the contract with Brazil was forced to do final assembly there as opposed to in the US. Content legislation.

The US tried to do this. As part of the stimulus package, Obama wanted the goods being purchased for infrastructure projects to be made in the US. Our trade partners objected and we caved. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have ignored their duties on doing the same thing to countries like Brazil and it has cost the US jobs.

With that said, my current arrangement is shipping parts to Brazil. Other components come from Japan and other areas of the US. These particular assembled components are high efficiency LED road lights. Overall, Brazil is winning by getting good and cheap lights. Japan is winning. A US corp is profiting. My workers have jobs. The current global trade agreement is a net win for all of the countries involved but if done equally it would be a BIGGER win for the US and its workers. Fixing that without destroying the whole system is walking a tight rope.

I could have the same discussion about global defense, immigration, etc. The US benefits from these things as is but the benefits are felt disproportionately by the rich. We need to tweak that without destroying the whole thing.

I wish the country could talk about these things. I'm not a fan of redistribution. As an analogy:
- Hillary's globalist agenda takes $10 out of a middle class guy's pocket and gives it to a rich guy
- Hillary increases taxes on the rich guy to take $3 of that money back out of his pocket.
- Hillary takes $1 from the rich guy in campaign contributions
- Hillary and her cronies keep $1 and give $2 back to the middle class guy and shout about how they stuck it to the rich and were looking out for the poor guy

End result:
Rich guy nets $6
Hillary nets $2
Middle class guy loses $10 while getting $2 in government benefits

I would rather have the middle class guy just keep his $10. Simplistic example but the real world has so many money flows a lot of people miss how the mechanisms of income inequality work. I wish we could have these type of discussions instead of the stupid and simplistic "racism" comments that seem to dominate today.
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Re: RE: Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1892 » by Red Larrivee » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:29 pm

coldfish wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
coldfish wrote:
What is funny is that Romney lost with that percentage. If you look at the numbers, Trump actually did better with minorities than Romney. Beyond that, the candidate quality between 2012 and 2016 for the democrats was also "seismic". Democrats don't want to hear this but apparently Hillary was driving away people even faster than Trump was.

Democrats have their heads in the sand on the racism thing. That's all they want to see. This election had a race based component, but that isn't what flipped it. As I have been saying, what flipped this election was a number of democratic strongholds that strongly went for Obama (meaning they aren't racist) switching to go for Trump. It was largely economic based.

Instead of having a discussion about the real why's and policy directions, we have this constant discussion about racism that had virtually nothing to do with the outcome of the election.


The policy direction that Trump is promising is inherently anti-immigrant and anti-minority.

Systemic racism is also racism.


OK, let's discuss his general policy discussions.

Immigration: He is clearly against illegal immigrants. He hasn't outlined much of a policy at all for legal immigrants. Illegal immigration creates a supply of cheap labor which suppresses wages for low skilled workers. Given that in many cases these are also minorities, this is not inherently racist. All of that being said, immigration on its whole is beneficial to the greater economy. Personally, I have a huge issue with ILLEGAL immigration on two fronts:
- It creates a second class group of people without the full rights and benefits of being a citizen who can be exploited.
- When presidents pick and choose which laws they enforce, then they become dictators. Its a really slippery slope.

Trade reform: The intent is to get more jobs for poor and middle class people who again are minorities. Not racist. Beneficial to the greater economy? Interesting debate.

Banning muslims: An immigrant from Afghanistan is far more likely to carry out a domestic terror attack than one from, say, Denmark. With that said, this policy is inherently racist as it is using statistics to paint an entire ethnic group. Beyond that, immigrants from Afghanistan are still pretty unlikely to carry out an attack.

Infrastructure spending: Not racist. Technically disproportionately benefits poor and middle class. Again, actually helps minorities more than white people statistically. Is it worth the additional debt though?

Repeal and replace obamacare: This hurts the working poor getting heavily subsidized health care from the government. Helps small business owners. A lot depends on what the "replace" is. Given the statistical distribution of minorities, this likely is not pro-minority.

Global isolationism: Not racist. Again, would technically free up money used for defense for domestic programs which disproportionately benefit minorities. Would this really be a good idea though?

I'm sure I am missing something. With that said, Trump's policies overall seem to benefit poor african americans more than anyone. . . . if they work. A lot of these things are aimed at helping poor and middle class people get jobs. With that said, if implemented poorly this could send the whole world economy in the toilet.

I just wish we could have a little deeper conversation about this than shutting down every discussion by shouting "racism".

As a side note, the biggest issue here is that Trump is blatantly anti-non American. He isn't trying to hide that. He is putting america and americans first and if he is successful, non americans will not benefit. A lot of the global angst is based around that. Not ever really discussed but important is just how much areas like Western Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. benefit from the global economic system that the US subsidizes. Trump is threatening to take those subsidies away.


Racism wouldn't be apart of the conversation if Trump didn't blatantly target those types of people. Minorities aren't fearing for the future of this country for no reason. Look around and read the stories and reactions that have developed since his win. You can't possibly just look the other way on that stuff. Are there some good things that can come from Trump during his term? Sure, but his actions, words and campaign hardly resemble a president-elect that we should give the benefit of the doubt and look on the bright side.

"But, there were minorities that voted for Trump, so how can he be racist!" The political equivalent of, "I'm not racist, I have a black friend and an Asian friend."
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1893 » by DuckIII » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:31 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Good enough. I was wrong to criticize them. Stay peaceful and speak your mind all night long then.

I understand why so many don't want to wait. Are people afraid that Trump is going to start signing executive orders on inauguration day to take away civil rights, hunt down and deport 15 million illegal aliens, build a wall, take health insurance away from 20 million people, ban gay marriage, abortion and start bombing countries he doesn't like. It doesn't work that way and there would be a revolution if he tried.


It's cool to say all these thing won't happen, but the man just won an election spouting off all those things you just mentioned. And you wonder why people were protesting? You just listed it!

They're protesting because your country is not united. It's the Divided States of America, and people are appalled that a man that said so much vicious ****, the stuff you listed, which targets so many minority groups, was able to become the most powerful man in the world.


The time to protest that was at the ballot on Tuesday. Point being, we cannot change the result, so we are only further dividing people.


I don't think you get it. The election validates the divide. The election is the result of a campaign based on that division. And you basically want the targets of the fear mongering and hatred to be the ones to practice unity.

Won't happen. A significant portion of Americans are going to peacefully reject this result and what it represents about the worst elements of our society.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1894 » by The 6ft Hurdle » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:35 pm

coldfish wrote:
League Circles wrote:
coldfish wrote:I'm sure I am missing something. With that said, Trump's policies overall seem to benefit poor african americans more than anyone. . . . if they work. A lot of these things are aimed at helping poor and middle class people get jobs. With that said, if implemented poorly this could send the whole world economy in the toilet.

I just wish we could have a little deeper conversation about this than shutting down every discussion by shouting "racism".

As a side note, the biggest issue here is that Trump is blatantly anti-non American. He isn't trying to hide that. He is putting america and americans first and if he is successful, non americans will not benefit. A lot of the global angst is based around that. Not ever really discussed but important is just how much areas like Western Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. benefit from the global economic system that the US subsidizes. Trump is threatening to take those subsidies away.


Yes. The one thing that is very different, perhaps most different, between Trump and HRC/previous presidents, is that Trump enthusiastically wants to benefit America at the expense of the world (which I have mixed feelings about - I think it's sort of morally wrong but of course if it works would benefit all Americans), whereas most of our leaders pander more to globalization and people everywhere (especially HRC types).

IMO, we need somewhat more protectionist trade policies for several reasons. It shouldn't be that controversial. America is the world's best market for producers worldwide. When you want to set up shop in the nicest shopping malls, you pay the highest rents. Also, we often protect countries we are not obligated to. IMO, the world, and not us, should pay for that and import tariffs are IMO the proper way to do it.

It will also drive up prices on consumer goods that we all waste our money on. This will cause Americans to buy less crap and save more money, which we are in desperate, desperate need of.

Import tariffs also would allow us to lower other types of taxes which are inherently worse IMO, like income tax, corporate taxes, etc.

Interstate commerce should be inherently advantageous vs international IMO. After all, this nation got together and agreed on national policy and got our relative **** together (I'm talking about the creation of our nation, the constitution, etc). We should encourage making and trading our own stuff amongst each other, and somewhat provide some disincentives to international trade. The whole world being too dependent on international trade reduces everyone's self sufficiency and sovereignty, and hurts the environment. Sure it can give the benefit of more goods at lower cost, but IMO that has got to be super low priority. If an iphone costs $2000 after Trump has his way, so be it. Nobody needs a new one.


Right this minute, my company is shipping parts to Brazil that we normally ship to North Carolina. The reason is that the global corporation that got the contract with Brazil was forced to do final assembly there as opposed to in the US. Content legislation.

The US tried to do this. As part of the stimulus package, Obama wanted the goods being purchased for infrastructure projects to be made in the US. Our trade partners objected and we caved. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have ignored their duties on doing the same thing to countries like Brazil and it has cost the US jobs.

With that said, my current arrangement is shipping parts to Brazil. Other components come from Japan and other areas of the US. These particular assembled components are high efficiency LED road lights. Overall, Brazil is winning by getting good and cheap lights. Japan is winning. A US corp is profiting. My workers have jobs. The current global trade agreement is a net win for all of the countries involved but if done equally it would be a BIGGER win for the US and its workers. Fixing that without destroying the whole system is walking a tight rope.

I could have the same discussion about global defense, immigration, etc. The US benefits from these things as is but the benefits are felt disproportionately by the rich. We need to tweak that without destroying the whole thing.

I wish the country could talk about these things. I'm not a fan of redistribution. As an analogy:
- Hillary's globalist agenda takes $10 out of a middle class guy's pocket and gives it to a rich guy
- Hillary increases taxes on the rich guy to take $3 of that money back out of his pocket.
- Hillary takes $1 from the rich guy in campaign contributions
- Hillary and her cronies keep $1 and give $2 back to the middle class guy and shout about how they stuck it to the rich and were looking out for the poor guy

End result:
Rich guy nets $6
Hillary nets $2
Middle class guy loses $10 while getting $2 in government benefits

I would rather have the middle class guy just keep his $10. Simplistic example but the real world has so many money flows a lot of people miss how the mechanisms of income inequality work. I wish we could have these type of discussions instead of the stupid and simplistic "racism" comments that seem to dominate today.

It was a great post until your last sentence.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1895 » by tong po » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:37 pm

The belief that a man with the, ah, "career" of Trump is somehow exactly what this country needs is akin to the belief that a point guard that literally no other team in the NBA wanted to sign is somehow the answer.

So I suppose I am not surprised.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1896 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:37 pm

DuckIII wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
It's cool to say all these thing won't happen, but the man just won an election spouting off all those things you just mentioned. And you wonder why people were protesting? You just listed it!

They're protesting because your country is not united. It's the Divided States of America, and people are appalled that a man that said so much vicious ****, the stuff you listed, which targets so many minority groups, was able to become the most powerful man in the world.


The time to protest that was at the ballot on Tuesday. Point being, we cannot change the result, so we are only further dividing people.


I don't think you get it. The election validates the divide. The election is the result of a campaign based on that division. And you basically want the targets of the fear mongering and hatred to be the ones to practice unity.

Won't happen. A significant portion of Americans are going to peacefully reject this result and what it represents about the worst elements of our society.


You're right. And I don't blame them. BUT, I think they do it to the detriment of themselves and everyone. I hope they get what they want. I really hope we don't see another 4 years of just two sides hating and criticizing each other.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1897 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:39 pm

coldfish wrote:
I wish the country could talk about these things. I'm not a fan of redistribution. As an analogy:
- Hillary's globalist agenda takes $10 out of a middle class guy's pocket and gives it to a rich guy
- Hillary increases taxes on the rich guy to take $3 of that money back out of his pocket.
- Hillary takes $1 from the rich guy in campaign contributions
- Hillary and her cronies keep $1 and give $2 back to the middle class guy and shout about how they stuck it to the rich and were looking out for the poor guy

End result:
Rich guy nets $6
Hillary nets $2
Middle class guy loses $10 while getting $2 in government benefits

I would rather have the middle class guy just keep his $10. Simplistic example but the real world has so many money flows a lot of people miss how the mechanisms of income inequality work. I wish we could have these type of discussions instead of the stupid and simplistic "racism" comments that seem to dominate today.


Thank you for breaking it down like this.. Maybe people need to see reality in a simplistic form to understand. Killing us softly with her song.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1898 » by DuckIII » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:48 pm

League Circles wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
The time to protest that was at the ballot on Tuesday. Point being, we cannot change the result, so we are only further dividing people.


I don't think you get it. The election validates the divide. The election is the result of a campaign based on that division. And you basically want the targets of the fear mongering and hatred to be the ones to practice unity.

Won't happen. A significant portion of Americans are going to peacefully reject this result and what it represents about the worst elements of our society.


You're right. And I don't blame them. BUT, I think they do it to the detriment of themselves and everyone. I hope they get what they want. I really hope we don't see another 4 years of just two sides hating and criticizing each other.


That's exactly what you are going to see.
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Re: RE: Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1899 » by Red Larrivee » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:49 pm

DuckIII wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
It's cool to say all these thing won't happen, but the man just won an election spouting off all those things you just mentioned. And you wonder why people were protesting? You just listed it!

They're protesting because your country is not united. It's the Divided States of America, and people are appalled that a man that said so much vicious ****, the stuff you listed, which targets so many minority groups, was able to become the most powerful man in the world.


The time to protest that was at the ballot on Tuesday. Point being, we cannot change the result, so we are only further dividing people.


I don't think you get it. The election validates the divide. The election is the result of a campaign based on that division. And you basically want the targets of the fear mongering and hatred to be the ones to practice unity.

Won't happen. A significant portion of Americans are going to peacefully reject this result and what it represents about the worst elements of our society.


Exactly. I don't understand why the targeted minorities are the ones who need to grow up and participate in the unity of this country. Thats so backwards. Trump embodies everything that is wrong with our country.

The next president practically helped further the divide of this country, yet some in this thread are acting as if he ran an honorable campaign.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#1900 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:51 pm

DuckIII wrote:
League Circles wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
I don't think you get it. The election validates the divide. The election is the result of a campaign based on that division. And you basically want the targets of the fear mongering and hatred to be the ones to practice unity.

Won't happen. A significant portion of Americans are going to peacefully reject this result and what it represents about the worst elements of our society.


You're right. And I don't blame them. BUT, I think they do it to the detriment of themselves and everyone. I hope they get what they want. I really hope we don't see another 4 years of just two sides hating and criticizing each other.


That's exactly what you are going to see.


Yeah, I suppose so. But it's ok cause the Trump people started it I guess?
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