Perspective on the Butler trade, was there a better rebuild option?

[MadGrinch]

the better rebuild option last season was the same as the bulls had in 2010 &11

pair your star with at least another legit star and build from there

a solo star cant make a team a contender by himself.

the cavs have 3 stars the warriros have at least 4, you cant expect jimmy and 4 guys who wouldnt start for most of the top 5 teams in the league to make your team a true title contender

so because they dont go that extra mile , the putter around for a few years and rebuild acting like it was their only choice, under paxson this is about 4th rebuild ...at some point the cycle gets obvious .

[Stratmaster]

It just occurred to me. Jimmy Butler is no longer even the best player on his team. A team which still, with Jimmy as the 2nd best player (assuming he outplays Wiggins) is likely to see an early playoff exit. Yet, some people are acting like the Bulls should have gotten a top 3 pick or a franchise player for him.

Jimmy is a fantastic basketball player, but I do believe he is overrated on here. That is to be expected though on a Bulls message board.

[TankOverlord]

Jimmy is an amazing story, not an amazing player. Easy to confuse these.

[DroseReturnChi]

Nope Butler is overrated, and the Celtics don't think much of him so this was the only choice we had to get Dunn, and Lavine who might be good players esp. Lavine.

Yep, Butler is overrated big time. He does not play defense like he used to, but he still carries the reputation with him due to his early career. His shooting touch has not progressed and his leadership has been questionable at best. He has a diva attitude, resulting in him feuding with Hoiberg. In conclusion, I'll say this, if Butler loves Chicago that much, he can always bring Kyrie Irving with him in Summer 2019, since the Bulls will have the money for that.

I'd love to hear a reasonable argument that suggests that Butler isn't a top 12-15 player, and why the advanced metrics - which think extremely high of him - are misguided.

Butler's problem is that he was so focused on padding his statline he forgot to play with the same defensive intensity he had in the past which allowed him to survive in this league in the first place. Meanwhile, I never saw Pippen sacrificing defense for offense and the defensive win shares prove my point.
His glorified stats (basically Deng on steroids who should never be the 1st option) bring down the entire Bulls offense and the pace was one of the slowest mainly due to him and Wade hogging the ball.
I want the Butler than can get 25ppg 5/5 with pippen like defense he showed in the past. But his defense is falling off a cliff like Lebron despite being only age 27. Not to mention the supermax 200 million contract and injuries will follow suit since he gets hurt very often.
If he wants to redeem himself, bring Kyrie to the Bulls in 2 years and I will no longer be negative on him. But otherwise, he needs to be gone forever.

[Stratmaster]

No doubt he's in the top 15 range right now. But very unlikely he stays there throughout the next contract which is why he needed to go. Bulls dodged a bullet as the supermax would've been an albatross.

His game won't age well and his attitude is a huge downer. We got tremendous value out of him, time to move on.

What you're suggesting here is reasonable, but how does that feed into the perception of him being overrated or not?

What you outlined here isn't necessarily related to production, which is what I'm assuming the whole "overrated" sentiment relates to.

Not to throw my 2 cents in....but OK.

I don't see Jimmy as a top 15 player, and many other very learned (as opposed to my un-learned) NBA experts agree. However, when I say Butler is overrated I do it with 2 specific qualifications. first, he is overrated by Bulls fans (not the league in general) and 2nd he was overrated by Bulls fans as far as his value on the trade market.

Whether or not he is 13th best, 16th best or 25th best...who cares? Especially anymore? If we were arguing over him being top 5, it might have some special meaning.

[kingkirk]

Not to throw my 2 cents in....but OK.

I don't see Jimmy as a top 15 player, and many other very learned (as opposed to my un-learned) NBA experts agree.

Such as?

Whether or not he is 13th best, 16th best or 25th best...who cares? Especially anymore? If we were arguing over him being top 5, it might have some special meaning.

It matters because it was a talking point in this thread. The topic was being discussed. To me, it all matters as to whether I should be taking that persons opinion on the subject seriously. Example: if someone thinks Butler was the 25th best player in the league last season, I will think they're crazy, wrong, have an agenda, or all of the above.

[Stratmaster]

Not to throw my 2 cents in....but OK.

I don't see Jimmy as a top 15 player, and many other very learned (as opposed to my un-learned) NBA experts agree.

Such as?

Whether or not he is 13th best, 16th best or 25th best...who cares? Especially anymore? If we were arguing over him being top 5, it might have some special meaning.

It matters because it was a talking point in this thread. The topic was being discussed. To me, it all matters as to whether I should be taking that persons opinion on the subject seriously. Example: if someone thinks Butler was the 25th best player in the league last season, I will think they're crazy, wrong, have an agenda, or all of the above.

OK...A quick Google found the following rankings for Butler:
Bleacher Report (Mid-Season) 8th
Hoops Hype 9th
Wash. Post 11th
Inside The NBA - Barkley 12th
Inside the NBA - Ernie 14th
Inside the NBA- Kenny 16th
SLAM Top 50 - 19th
Inside the NBA - Shaq 20th

Interestingly the "new age" sports websites like Bleacher Report and Hoops Hype, who rely heavily on advanced stats, rank Jimmy top 10 :O

Segue to my personal opinion: All you have to do to realize those sites have no clue about basketball past the stats is to read a few of their articles.

People who actually played the game seem to rate him 16-20..well other than Charles but go take a look at his list. It was insane as is most of what he says.

I have never in my life read a sports article from the Washington Post until just now. I would be intellectually dishonest to claim to know whether they have a clue or not...I just know their name doesn't seem to come up for sports journalism often.

Personally I think Butler falls in the 20-22 range, depending on the day you ask me. Maybe I am underrating him slightly because I don't like his intangibles. However, for you to act incredulous that anyone might think he is not top 15 is pretty...incredulous.

[kingkirk]

OK...A quick Google found the following rankings for Butler:
Bleacher Report (Mid-Season) 8th
Hoops Hype 9th
Wash. Post 11th
Inside The NBA - Barkley 12th
Inside the NBA - Ernie 14th
Inside the NBA- Kenny 16th
SLAM Top 50 - 19th
Inside the NBA - Shaq 20th

Interestingly the "new age" sports websites like Bleacher Report and Hoops Hype, who rely heavily on advanced stats, rank Jimmy top 10 :O

Segue to my personal opinion: All you have to do to realize those sites have no clue about basketball past the stats is to read a few of their articles.

People who actually played the game seem to rate him 16-20..well other than Charles but go take a look at his list. It was insane as is most of what he says.

I have never in my life read a sports article from the Washington Post until just now. I would be intellectually dishonest to claim to know whether they have a clue or not...I just know their name doesn't seem to come up for sports journalism often.

Personally I think Butler falls in the 20-22 range, depending on the day you ask me. Maybe I am underrating him slightly because I don't like his intangibles. However, for you to act incredulous that anyone might think he is not top 15 is pretty...incredulous.

Who is the Washington Post writer you speak of? If it's Tim Bontemps, then yes, he very much is in the know.

You're coming at me with the incredulous line, but you use the argument of "those that have played the game"...

Irony.

I don't have the energy for this nonsense. Just end it here.

[Stratmaster]

OK...A quick Google found the following rankings for Butler:
Bleacher Report (Mid-Season) 8th
Hoops Hype 9th
Wash. Post 11th
Inside The NBA - Barkley 12th
Inside the NBA - Ernie 14th
Inside the NBA- Kenny 16th
SLAM Top 50 - 19th
Inside the NBA - Shaq 20th

Interestingly the "new age" sports websites like Bleacher Report and Hoops Hype, who rely heavily on advanced stats, rank Jimmy top 10 :O

Segue to my personal opinion: All you have to do to realize those sites have no clue about basketball past the stats is to read a few of their articles.

People who actually played the game seem to rate him 16-20..well other than Charles but go take a look at his list. It was insane as is most of what he says.

I have never in my life read a sports article from the Washington Post until just now. I would be intellectually dishonest to claim to know whether they have a clue or not...I just know their name doesn't seem to come up for sports journalism often.

Personally I think Butler falls in the 20-22 range, depending on the day you ask me. Maybe I am underrating him slightly because I don't like his intangibles. However, for you to act incredulous that anyone might think he is not top 15 is pretty...incredulous.

You're coming at me with the incredulous line, but you use the argument of "those that have played the game"...

Irony.

I don't have the energy for this nonsense. Just end it here.

Just to answer your question, the Post article says "By Tim Bontemps, Jose Soto and Lazaro Gamio"

Irony? are you trying to say those that haven't played in the NBA know more about the NBA than those who have?

Nonsense begets nonsense. Consider it ended.

[sco]

For the most part, either consciously or unconsciously, rankings take into account post season success.

There is a certain logic in saying "team A made it to the NBA finals, and player X is the best player on team A; therefore, Player X is better than his stats would otherwise suggest or overlook that he's a one-way player". The Bulls have not had a good playoff showing in a long time.

[sco]

The Boston Celtics considered trading for Jimmy Butler, but sources say they had some concerns over how he would mesh with Gordon Hayward both on the court and as personalities

[TheStig]

Yep, Butler is overrated big time. He does not play defense like he used to, but he still carries the reputation with him due to his early career. His shooting touch has not progressed and his leadership has been questionable at best. He has a diva attitude, resulting in him feuding with Hoiberg. In conclusion, I'll say this, if Butler loves Chicago that much, he can always bring Kyrie Irving with him in Summer 2019, since the Bulls will have the money for that.

I'd love to hear a reasonable argument that suggests that Butler isn't a top 12-15 player, and why the advanced metrics - which think extremely high of him - are misguided.

Butler's problem is that he was so focused on padding his statline he forgot to play with the same defensive intensity he had in the past which allowed him to survive in this league in the first place. Meanwhile, I never saw Pippen sacrificing defense for offense and the defensive win shares prove my point.
His glorified stats (basically Deng on steroids who should never be the 1st option) bring down the entire Bulls offense and the pace was one of the slowest mainly due to him and Wade hogging the ball.
I want the Butler than can get 25ppg 5/5 with pippen like defense he showed in the past. But his defense is falling off a cliff like Lebron despite being only age 27. Not to mention the supermax 200 million contract and injuries will follow suit since he gets hurt very often.
If he wants to redeem himself, bring Kyrie to the Bulls in 2 years and I will no longer be negative on him. But otherwise, he needs to be gone forever.

Simply incredible. When Butler played, they played at the level of a 50 win team. When he was on the bench the young guys played like the worst lotto team. To say Butler was just a stat padder is wildly ignorant. Sure he did not play elite D for 38mpg but no one does that anymore. It's not the 90's.

Butler will never be back and has no need to redeem himself. He wanted to be here, the FO traded him. Not the other way around.

[kodo]

The Boston Celtics considered trading for Jimmy Butler, but sources say they had some concerns over how he would mesh with Gordon Hayward both on the court and as personalities

Beat me to it, I thought Zach Lowe's report was very eye opening and explains everything from Ainge's viewpoint.
Basically, they did not believe Butler was good enough an addition to make them "appreciably" better.

The "why not Butler and George?" questions are dicier. Timing played a part. Boston wanted two All-Star-level building blocks. They feared flipping their golden trade chip for the first one, whiffing on the second, and ending up having squandered their best asset to build a team that wasn't appreciably better than their previous iteration of LeBron roadkill.

Worried about Butler's chemistry issues as you quoted.

And Butler's age.

And then there is perhaps the most important variable: Irving is just 25, two years younger than George, and two-and-a-half years younger than Butler. When you're building around Tatum and Jaylen Brown, those two-plus years are crucial. Irving is just entering his prime. Boston wants to push LeBron now, and maybe make the NBA Finals if he goes west, but they really want to be the team of 2020 and beyond. Irving fits that timetable better, provided he can stay healthy.

[League Circles]

To me, there is no doubt Jimmy had a top 15 season. That doesn't mean he's a top 15 player, for two reasons. One being that regular season isn't the end all, be all for how good a player is. The other being that IMO there should be some variation factored into predictions where you don't take just the most recent (regular season) stats as the definitive analysis on a player.

But even if he is/was a top 15 player, IMO there is some major misunderstanding of what that means. The 15th best player in the league is approximately the worst #1 guy of any of the playoff teams. Now we know this isn't true in practice at the moment because multiple players are on a single team (GS) and because at least a couple of the top 15 #1 guys are on non playoff teams. But the principle remains, which is that if you have the #15 player in the league, you have an average #1 guy, and a #1 guy that, on a normal playoff game, is not going to be the best player on the court.

To me, the players in recent memory whose style and career and stats and stuff most remind me of Jimmy are Joe Johnson and Michael Finley. Both fine, fine players in their prime. All star power wings who could do everything pretty well. Both guys were disasters on their equivalent of the contract Jimmy would be signing next.

[DuckIII]

the better rebuild option last season was the same as the bulls had in 2010 &11

pair your star with at least another legit star and build from there

Really, every team should just employ the "get multiple star players" plan.

[MadGrinch]

the better rebuild option last season was the same as the bulls had in 2010 &11

pair your star with at least another legit star and build from there

Really, every team should just employ the "get multiple star players" plan.

look if you know you need more , go get it ...supposedly these are capable men .

in that time 2010-til 2017 a whole heap of star players were traded or signed ...but somehow the bulls didnt get any of them...in 8 years .

and you full well know different teams have different agendas , not everyone is trying to win , i honestly dont think the bulls management are going as hard to win as teams like san antonio , boston , houston teams that are making deals to make their teams better .

how often do the bulls make deals that make them better ?

most often at the trade deadline they make deals to save money .

[DuckIII]

the better rebuild option last season was the same as the bulls had in 2010 &11

pair your star with at least another legit star and build from there

Really, every team should just employ the "get multiple star players" plan.

look if you know you need more , go get it ...supposedly these are capable men .

in that time 2010-til 2017 a whole heap of star players were traded or signed ...but somehow the bulls didnt get any of them...in 8 years .

First, since 2010 the Bulls had Jimmy, Rose, Pau and Noah. Multiple star players. And but for Rose's injury, had achieved and were on track to be a top 4 contender for years. So your premise is false.

Second, by the time they could commit to rebuilding around Butler, the cupboard was bare. A big part of that was the FO's own fault of course due to poor drafting in recent years. But regardless, they did not have the assets to acquire "star players."

Saying "hey, these guys are pros, just go get multiple star players" is silly and pointless. It's not a plan, it's a wish.

[Stratmaster]

The Boston Celtics considered trading for Jimmy Butler, but sources say they had some concerns over how he would mesh with Gordon Hayward both on the court and as personalities

Jimmy? Personality?

[Stratmaster]

Really, every team should just employ the "get multiple star players" plan.

look if you know you need more , go get it ...supposedly these are capable men .

in that time 2010-til 2017 a whole heap of star players were traded or signed ...but somehow the bulls didnt get any of them...in 8 years .

First, since 2010 the Bulls had Jimmy, Rose, Pau and Noah. Multiple star players. And but for Rose's injury, had achieved and were on track to be a top 4 contender for years. So your premise is false.

Second, by the time they could commit to rebuilding around Butler, the cupboard was bare. A big part of that was the FO's own fault of course due to poor drafting in recent years. But regardless, they did not have the assets to acquire "star players."

Saying "hey, these guys are pros, just go get multiple star players" is silly and pointless. It's not a plan, it's a wish.

"Hope is not a strategy"

[TheJordanRule]

look if you know you need more , go get it ...supposedly these are capable men .

in that time 2010-til 2017 a whole heap of star players were traded or signed ...but somehow the bulls didnt get any of them...in 8 years .

First, since 2010 the Bulls had Jimmy, Rose, Pau and Noah. Multiple star players. And but for Rose's injury, had achieved and were on track to be a top 4 contender for years. So your premise is false.

Second, by the time they could commit to rebuilding around Butler, the cupboard was bare. A big part of that was the FO's own fault of course due to poor drafting in recent years. But regardless, they did not have the assets to acquire "star players."

Saying "hey, these guys are pros, just go get multiple star players" is silly and pointless. It's not a plan, it's a wish.

"Hope is not a strategy"

So then why on God's green earth are you advocating a more delusional strategy. Tanking is purely based on hope.