MJ still ranks kobe over lebron

[League Circles]

Dirk above Kobe is like saying defense isn't part of the game. Kobe may not have played a lot of defense later in his career, but for much of his prime, he was a pretty elite perimeter defender. Dirk was always bad on that end.

while I would not claim that dirk is better than kobe, I think dirk's defense was underrated while kobe's was VASTLY overrated. I'm not sure it was ever elite, and he removed his focus on that end the second shaq left town in order to put more energy into taking over even more on offense

that the guy willingly took his foot off the pedal defensively goes to show how much this claim of jordan-like competitiveness is overstated. although his competitiveness WAS the closest point of comparison. his game certainly didn't come close

IMO, every great scorer ever has had to take their foot on and off the defensive pedal as needed, especially in the regular season, including Kobe, Shaq, MJ, Lebron etc. There just isn't enough energy available to play all out on both ends all the time. But when they needed to, they could and did step up the defense to high levels. Dirk eas never able to do that.

[League Circles]

and even more so than pippen, when given even a half-decent supporting cast, KG had more success than kobe in how far he could drag such a team. he once won 58 games (losing to shaq and kobe in the WCF) with the following players as his 2-5 supporting cast in minutes played:

33 year old latrell sprewell
34 year old sam cassell
trenton hassell
hoiball

That season was lightning in a bottle, he had tons of pretty average to poor seasons with average to poor casts, and one could easily argue that he should have moved the needle more than he did.

And this is why Dirk is above Kobe IMO. Let's see Kobe win a title with a 38-year-old Jason Kidd as his best teammate. That was as close to a Hakeem-in-'94 title as we're probably ever gonna see again for a long, long time.

Tyson Chandler was the second best player. And he was damn good. One of the more underrated players of the past 15 years IMO.

[dice]

Dirk above Kobe is like saying defense isn't part of the game. Kobe may not have played a lot of defense later in his career, but for much of his prime, he was a pretty elite perimeter defender. Dirk was always bad on that end.

while I would not claim that dirk is better than kobe, I think dirk's defense was underrated while kobe's was VASTLY overrated. I'm not sure it was ever elite, and he removed his focus on that end the second shaq left town in order to put more energy into taking over even more on offense

that the guy willingly took his foot off the pedal defensively goes to show how much this claim of jordan-like competitiveness is overstated. although his competitiveness WAS the closest point of comparison. his game certainly didn't come close

IMO, every great scorer ever has had to take their foot on and off the defensive pedal as needed

for possessions, not for years. MJ MAY have taken the occasional possession off defensively, but kobe went to taking the occasional possession ON defensively

[League Circles]

while I would not claim that dirk is better than kobe, I think dirk's defense was underrated while kobe's was VASTLY overrated. I'm not sure it was ever elite, and he removed his focus on that end the second shaq left town in order to put more energy into taking over even more on offense

that the guy willingly took his foot off the pedal defensively goes to show how much this claim of jordan-like competitiveness is overstated. although his competitiveness WAS the closest point of comparison. his game certainly didn't come close

IMO, every great scorer ever has had to take their foot on and off the defensive pedal as needed

for possessions, not for years. MJ MAY have taken the occasional possession off defensively, but kobe went to taking the occasional possession ON defensively

I very heavily weigh playoff ability over regular season, and I always felt Kobe was good defensively in the playoffs. To me if a guy shows ability to be a really good defender and gives his effort in the playoffs, pretty much any coasting during the regular (exhibition) season is forgiven IMO when analyzing them as a player.

[dice]

:evil:

IMO, every great scorer ever has had to take their foot on and off the defensive pedal as needed

for possessions, not for years. MJ MAY have taken the occasional possession off defensively, but kobe went to taking the occasional possession ON defensively

I very heavily weigh playoff ability over regular season, and I always felt Kobe was good defensively in the playoffs. To me if a guy shows ability to be a really good defender and gives his effort in the playoffs, pretty much any coasting during the regular (exhibition) season is forgiven IMO when analyzing them as a player.

that may be true, but in the immediate post-shaq years the lakers only played 12 playoff games in 3 years. maybe if kobe had played more regular season defense they would have been better positioned for the playoffs

[dougthonus]

i realize he went to duke, thanks. my obvious point is that the handful of games that comprised his college "career" will not be a factor in whether he makes the basketball (not nba) hall of fame. whereas for those few star nba players these days that DID have successful college stints, that helps their HOF resume

I don't think that has any impact on their HOF resume. The sample size is likely too small to even consider given that there are virtually no stars who aren't 1 and done or maybe 2 and done these days.

[dougthonus]

found some interesting up-to-date career PLAYOFF clutch stats. efg%/FGA, last 5 minutes or OT of close games (5 pts or less), listed in approximate order of impressiveness based on % and sample size:

54.2 97 nash

47.1 141 durant
49.3 88 curry
47.0 107 garnett
44.5 184 parker
46.5 100 iverson
44.5 176 pierce
42.7 113 allen
42.3 266 kobe
[42.1 weighted group average]

38.1 87 carter
37.8 114 kidd
38.7 148 dirk
35.7 87 wade
34.7 102 billups

30.1 143 westbrook

Just out of curiousity, where is LeBron?

[Leslie Forman]

I think Dirk is right there, and I could easily make the case for him over Kobe. I also agree with your point, but then you could hold the 2006 finals against him where he lost to a worse team and personally choked.

I'd also note that you can't look at just the players on the team though, you have to look at how they actually played. Jason Terry played like an all-star all playoffs. JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Jason Kidd all had PERs over 15 for the playoffs. I agree that cast doesn't seem great, but they played great in the playoffs.

If you compare them to the Bulls cast you mentioned which was similar, the difference was the Bulls cast played terrible (as did Rose).

It's still perhaps my favorite finals of all time though and definitely catapulted Dirk up in the conversation with guys like Duncan and Kobe.

As for 2006, yeah it's a black mark but more for the league than the Mavs IMO. In three of Miami's wins, the Heat won by 2, 1, and 3 points. In those games Wade had 18, 25, and 21 FTAs. Now I'm a guy that thinks peak Wade is better than Kobe, and among the several best ever, and that drawing free throws is a great skill, but that officiating was some of the worst I'd ever seen.

As for Dirk's supporting cast, I would ask just why did that cast play so great? Dirk never won less than 50 games for eleven straight years on a team that had a lot of turnover. Dirk made players better (well except Nash obviously). I don't think Kobe ever did. I don't think Jason Terry is playing like that next to Kobe. I don't think Tyson Chandler quite puts in the shift he did having to cover for Kobe. He was an incredible player, but I just don't think he ever made teammates better. I think Dirk's gravity as a pioneering stretch 4 and a guy who could play heavily off-the-ball had a bigger effect on helping others.

[dice]

i realize he went to duke, thanks. my obvious point is that the handful of games that comprised his college "career" will not be a factor in whether he makes the basketball (not nba) hall of fame. whereas for those few star nba players these days that DID have successful college stints, that helps their HOF resume

I don't think that has any impact on their HOF resume. The sample size is likely too small to even consider given that there are virtually no stars who aren't 1 and done or maybe 2 and done these days.

helps melo, although I think his Olympic performance gets him in anyway

[dice]

found some interesting up-to-date career PLAYOFF clutch stats. efg%/FGA, last 5 minutes or OT of close games (5 pts or less), listed in approximate order of impressiveness based on % and sample size:

54.2 97 nash

47.1 141 durant
49.3 88 curry
47.0 107 garnett
44.5 184 parker
46.5 100 iverson
44.5 176 pierce
42.7 113 allen
42.3 266 kobe
[42.1 weighted group average]

38.1 87 carter
37.8 114 kidd
38.7 148 dirk
35.7 87 wade
34.7 102 billups

30.1 143 westbrook

Just out of curiousity, where is LeBron?

curiously missing from the list

[dice]

And this is why Dirk is above Kobe IMO. Let's see Kobe win a title with a 38-year-old Jason Kidd as his best teammate. That was as close to a Hakeem-in-'94 title as we're probably ever gonna see again for a long, long time.

I think Dirk is right there, and I could easily make the case for him over Kobe. I also agree with your point, but then you could hold the 2006 finals against him where he lost to a worse team and personally choked.

there was also the 67 win MVP season where the mavs lost in the first round and dirk played poorly

I'd also note that you can't look at just the players on the team though, you have to look at how they actually played. Jason Terry played like an all-star all playoffs. JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Jason Kidd all had PERs over 15 for the playoffs. I agree that cast doesn't seem great, but they played great in the playoffs.

both teams they upset played poorly on the whole as well (lakers, heat). and they avoided the top-seeded spurs in the WCF, who lost to the grizzlies in the first round

[Leslie Forman]

And this is why Dirk is above Kobe IMO. Let's see Kobe win a title with a 38-year-old Jason Kidd as his best teammate. That was as close to a Hakeem-in-'94 title as we're probably ever gonna see again for a long, long time.

I think Dirk is right there, and I could easily make the case for him over Kobe. I also agree with your point, but then you could hold the 2006 finals against him where he lost to a worse team and personally choked.

there was also the 67 win MVP season where the mavs lost in the first round and dirk played poorly

I'd also note that you can't look at just the players on the team though, you have to look at how they actually played. Jason Terry played like an all-star all playoffs. JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Jason Kidd all had PERs over 15 for the playoffs. I agree that cast doesn't seem great, but they played great in the playoffs.

both teams they upset played poorly on the whole as well (lakers, heat). and they avoided the top-seeded spurs in the WCF, who lost to the grizzlies in the first round

There are series where Kobe was terrible too, but he happened to have Shaq to save his ass. Or not, like against the Pistons or Celtics. In the end it all averages out. And in the end Dirk averaged 25.3PPG on a .577%TS. Kobe averaged 25.6 on a .541%TS.

[dice]

I think Dirk is right there, and I could easily make the case for him over Kobe. I also agree with your point, but then you could hold the 2006 finals against him where he lost to a worse team and personally choked.

there was also the 67 win MVP season where the mavs lost in the first round and dirk played poorly

I'd also note that you can't look at just the players on the team though, you have to look at how they actually played. Jason Terry played like an all-star all playoffs. JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Jason Kidd all had PERs over 15 for the playoffs. I agree that cast doesn't seem great, but they played great in the playoffs.

both teams they upset played poorly on the whole as well (lakers, heat). and they avoided the top-seeded spurs in the WCF, who lost to the grizzlies in the first round

There are series where Kobe was terrible too, but he happened to have Shaq to save his ass. Or not, like against the Pistons or Celtics. In the end it all averages out. And in the end Dirk averaged 25.3PPG on a .577%TS. Kobe averaged 25.6 on a .541%TS.

the argument is not whether dirk has been the better scorer. he has been. easily. but kobe had more team success regardless of how much you feel he has contributed to that, and he has the better all-around game

i respect the opinion that dirk has been the better player. i'm just not on board

edit...i stand corrected. big time. just did the research, aaaaaand it doesn't look good for kobe in terms of impact on winning. 2001-2017 NPI RAPM (no box score data, pure direct factual team impact):

____ kidd truth tim x AI dirk kobe wade ben nash tmac KG CP3 ray shaq
2001 0.17 0.13 5.52 2.04 4.30 4.39 xxxx 2.45 1.58 2.83 2.13 xxx 3.86 4.37
2002 3.31 2.75 4.80 3.05 4.13 2.34 xxxx 1.47 2.23 3.11 3.22 xxx 0.97 6.11
2003 3.46 1.50 6.19 0.24 5.89 2.32 xxxx 2.45 1.44 2.74 6.54 xxx 3.05 4.45
2004 3.52 0.03 4.09 -0.14 4.26 2.59 0.61 3.68 1.18 0.36 5.66 xxx 2.53 4.95
2005 4.26 3.04 6.36 -0.40 3.95 1.04 1.19 1.70 4.43 2.82 1.41 xxx 2.18 2.36
2006 1.22 -0.52 2.99 1.74 3.83 3.34 6.28 3.48 4.23 1.98 2.61 0.39 2.11 1.92
2007 1.88 2.26 5.43 0.71 4.34 2.55 1.85 -1.10 4.71 1.94 4.12 0.44 0.43 -0.10
2008 1.37 4.88 3.44 2.72 4.69 3.96 0.68 -0.39 4.84 2.22 6.20 2.53 2.38 2.05
2009 3.17 1.69 0.66 -1.31 1.60 3.98 4.05 2.45 3.13 xxx 5.17 4.85 4.98 0.80
2010 1.69 1.18 2.79 xxxx 1.99 4.15 5.22 1.51 3.09 xxxx 1.69 0.62 3.93 -1.32
2011 0.60 4.27 3.02 xxxx 7.63 1.01 3.66 xxx 3.64 xxxxx 5.41 4.15 2.03
2012 1.23 0.06 4.23 xxxx 3.87 0.82 4.20 xxx 2.34 xxxx 5.58 3.91 -0.37
2013 0.19 2.46 3.53 xxxx 1.26 1.65 1.87 xxx -0.19 xxxx 1.88 3.42 -0.07
2014 xxxx 0.28 1.18 xxxx 3.42 xxx -0.66 xxxx xxx xxxx -0.85 5.27 -0.34
2015 xxxx 0.01 2.14 xxxx 0.23 -2.67 -0.87 xxxx xxx xxx 1.05 4.51
2016 xxxx xxx 3.45 xxxx 2.22 -2.38 -1.30 xxxx xxxx xxx 1.69 5.08
2017 xxxx xxx xxx xxxx -0.40 xxxx -2.22 xxxx xxxx xxx xxxx 5.00

totals ranked:

60.44 (17.88o/42.54d) duncan [no data on first 3 seasons, projection to around 75 total]

shaq [first 8 seasons missing, projection to around 65 for career]
63.44 (47.60o/15.84d) lebron

57.21 (44.63o/12.58d) dirk
53.51 (15.17o/38.35d) KG [1st prime season missing]
40.17 (31.02o/9.15d) cp3 [projected on a dirk/KG level for career if healthy]

26.09 (12.01o/14.08d) kidd [first 6 seasons missing, projection to 40+ total]
36.65 (39.38o/-2.74d) nash
29.09 (32.35o/-4.06d) kobe
27.70 (30.49o/-2.79d) ray
37.40 (24.88o/12.52d) ginobili
25.12 (12.98o/12.14d) parker
24.40 (13.59o/10.81d) vince
24.04 (13.25o/10.79d) pierce
23.25 (20.81o/2.44d) wade
20.63 (10.99o/9.64d) bosh
18.89 [3.02o/15.87d] dwight
18.00 (16.83o/1.17d) tmac
17.69 (-4.24o/21.93d) big ben
16.07 (17.71o/-1.64d) billups
8.64 (4.25o/4.39d) AI [first 4 missing, project close to 15 total]
10.96 (14.96o/-4.00d) deron
9.09 (16.28o/-7.09d) melo [on the slide last 3 seasons, crossed into negative territory this year]

it just so happens that 2001 exactly coincided with the start of the primes of pierce, kobe, dirk, big ben, tmac and nash

so was kobe a top 5 player of his generation? nnnnnnope. defense severely overrated

[YettiBull]

LeBron is going to have go to his 3rd team to try to win again, which is ridiculous (4th team if you count his 1st time with Cavs). He's the biggest drama queen, but an undeniable talent. LeBron is more concerned about LeBron than anything else.

[jc23]

That season was lightning in a bottle, he had tons of pretty average to poor seasons with average to poor casts, and one could easily argue that he should have moved the needle more than he did.

And this is why Dirk is above Kobe IMO. Let's see Kobe win a title with a 38-year-old Jason Kidd as his best teammate. That was as close to a Hakeem-in-'94 title as we're probably ever gonna see again for a long, long time.

Tyson Chandler was the second best player. And he was damn good. One of the more underrated players of the past 15 years IMO.

Dirk is not above Kobe on my all time rankings, but he does hold maybe the most impressive playoff run (2011) by a superstar ever. When the highlight of your career results in a top 5 all time players lowlight in his you know you did something special.

[Leslie Forman]

dirk on par w/ KG and WAY ahead of kobe. kobe didn't have half the impact on winning as TD. defense severely overrated

Yep. He's a bit overrated because he just fits that Jordan-like athletic-black-shooting-guard-who-scores-a-lot archetype better than anybody else. But he's really nowhere near Jordan. Even today with all this extra data people really cling to stereotypes and media hype when it comes to evaluating players.

But hey at least Kobe was still an amazing, truly great player. Allen Iverson on the other hand…

[dice]

dirk on par w/ KG and WAY ahead of kobe. kobe didn't have half the impact on winning as TD. defense severely overrated

Yep. He's a bit overrated because he just fits that Jordan-like athletic-black-shooting-guard-who-scores-a-lot archetype better than anybody else. But he's really nowhere near Jordan. Even today with all this extra data people really cling to stereotypes and media hype when it comes to evaluating players.

well said. some people might take issue with you introducing race into the discussion, but when people overrate kobe and AI so much yet underrate guys like dirk and nash, there may be something to that

But hey at least Kobe was still an amazing, truly great player. Allen Iverson on the other hand…

i don't think there's huge gap between the two. AI was certainly amazing, anyway, if not truly great. he was just more likely than kobe to shoot his team OUT of a game. neither should have taken nearly as many 3 pt shots as they did, 'cause they just weren't good at it

[Rerisen]

This picture always symbolized Kobe to me. Christmas Day, Thibs era, last shot after Rose had just buried a go ahead basket, Tom Thibodeau just knew Kobe was taking the last shot come hell or high water, and sent the whole team at him. Which of course he missed. You know LeBron (and MJ for that matter) is passing in this situation and making the right play.

Kobe wanted to win, but only on his terms.

[Leslie Forman]

But hey at least Kobe was still an amazing, truly great player. Allen Iverson on the other hand…

i don't think there's huge gap between the two. AI was certainly amazing, anyway, if not truly great. he was just more likely than kobe to shoot his team OUT of a game. neither should have taken nearly as many 3 pt shots as they did, 'cause they just weren't good at it

Nah Iverson wasn't really even close to Kobe. If Kobe is the step between, say, Melo and Jordan, Iverson is another step below Melo. Hell maybe even a step below that step.

[dice]

But hey at least Kobe was still an amazing, truly great player. Allen Iverson on the other hand…

i don't think there's huge gap between the two. AI was certainly amazing, anyway, if not truly great. he was just more likely than kobe to shoot his team OUT of a game. neither should have taken nearly as many 3 pt shots as they did, 'cause they just weren't good at it

Nah Iverson wasn't really even close to Kobe. If Kobe is the step between, say, Melo and Jordan, Iverson is another step below Melo. Hell maybe even a step below that step.

iverson was decent defensively. melo is not. iverson carried some bad teams past the first round of the playoffs and with mutombo's addition went to the finals. when he had a bad, injury plagued season in '03-'04 the team lost 15 more games than the previous season. he outplayed a prime melo on the same team when he was in his early 30s (similar offensive numbers, better defense)

see updated RAPM ranking above. gonna add several more notable players of kobe's generation