I don't understand why some fans here hate Wade so much

[DanTown8587]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

[JeremyB0001]

That's a pretty poor list of comparisons. Those 3 all scored a good bit less than Wade in total and all had significantly lower PERs (12-14s instead of 18).

You probably think it's a poor lists of comparisons because you're making a different comparison than I am.

Three players around age 25 who were similar to Wade last season strictly in terms of scoring were Reggie Jackson, Brandon Knight, and Dion Waiters.

You're comparing the players largely in terms of PER which looks at the entire box score. Not only scoring but also blocks, steals, rebounds, turnovers, and assists. My list is a poor comparison when looking at all contributions reflected by the box score because that's not what I was comparing. I'm focused entirely on Wade's scoring because there's an extreme quality to how much he shoots relative to his efficiency that, IMO, has potential for major impact on his team.

Because of the extreme nature of Wade's low-efficiency-high-volume approach, it's hard to find close comparisons to him. As you mention, the low-efficiency scorers on my list don't score and shoot quite so much as Wade. They're at about 26 points per 100 possessions, compared to his nearly 31 points per 100 possessions. The same criticism could be made of your list, where a quarter of the players are at 27 points per 100 possessions or less. 85% of the players on your list have a TS% at least 25 points higher than Wade. There are players on your list with a TS% over 100 points higher than Wade! With the other 15%, all but one scored no more than 27 points per 100 possessions, and thus weren't scoring at the same volume as Wade.

The one player whose scoring is somewhat similar to Wade is Jrue Holliday the season before last at 29.5 points per 100 possessions with a .529 TS%. I didn't find that comparison because I looked only at last season. Even that comparison isn't great because Holliday's efficiency was considerably better, with a TS% 21 points higher than Wade's. Aside from that Holiday comparison, the only other players coming close to combining such low efficiency with such high shot volume were Mo Speights the season before last and Zach Randolph last season. Speights didn't make my initial list because, again, I looked only at last season and I didn't include Randolph because it can be confusing to compare a player at a different position.

Your list, comparing overall box score stats rather than specifically comparing scoring stats, highlights how Wade's PER is unusually high for a player with such awful scoring efficiency. More than perhaps any other player, his PER is a result of how much he's "filling up the box score." It's also highlighted by the comparison I made to other players with similar shooting efficiency, which you pooh poohed because their PERs were so much lower. Their PERs are lower because they have typical box score stats for guards, whereas Wade puts up tons of points - because he shoots so much more than others with his low efficiency - and racks up lots of blocks, steals, assists, and rebounds for a two guard.

If you want to talk about how good Wade is overall, rather than just as a scorer, the question becomes how much he's helping the team by taking a lot of shots and racking many blocks, steals, rebounds, and assists for a two guard. Is that him being a well-rounded player who helps the team in all sorts of ways? Or are some of those empty stats, some of which derive from him having the ball way more than he should?

[nitetrain8603]

I dont think anyone here really hates Wade. . . we knew what we were getting out of him, and for the most part pretty much delivered just that.

Maybe get frustrated from time to time, but I think your evaluation is off.

I think that might be your evaluation of Wade , which is very tame and fair. However, the OP is spot on in his recognition that Wade is unjustifiably hated by quite a few posters here. The primary reasons are that some are still scorned by what happened in 2010, while others just want to be as bad as possible and don't want Wade anywhere near this team. I think that both excuses are a bunch of BS but I'm just one guy.

I agree with this post 100%. There are more than a few fans who have an irrational hate, and it's not just here. Listen to talk radio or walk around. Non-casual fans have the most problem with him.

I enjoy watching him play myself and I was happy with him and Jimmy taking shots at players not taking the moment serious enough. They needed that IMO. I understood Rondo's viewpoint, but maybe it's all just a byproduct of the front office and their horrid decisions (though I don't believe Wade nor Rondo were bad decisions)

[JeremyB0001]

Your list, comparing overall box score stats rather than specifically comparing scoring stats, highlights how Wade's PER is unusually high for a player with such awful scoring efficiency. More than perhaps any other player, his PER is a result of how much he's "filling up the box score." It's also highlighted by the comparison I made to other players with similar shooting efficiency, which you pooh poohed because their PERs were so much lower. Their PERs are lower because they have typical box score stats for guards, whereas Wade puts up tons of points - because he shoots so much more than others with his low efficiency - and racks up lots of blocks, steals, assists, and rebounds for a two guard.

If you want to talk about how good Wade is overall, rather than just as a scorer, the question becomes how much he's helping the team by taking a lot of shots and racking many blocks, steals, rebounds, and assists for a two guard. Is that him being a well-rounded player who helps the team in all sorts of ways? Or are some of those empty stats, some of which derive from him having the ball way more than he should?

One way to examine this a little further, is to expand the inquiry to the last five seasons, and ask how many players with as poor a shooting efficiency as Wade (a .510 TS% or worse) mustered a PER as high as his (18+). It's only 10 seasons (i.e., an average of two per season) and with one exception, they're all big men, which makes sense, since it tends to be easier for bigs to rack up a higher PER because it's easier for them to fill the box score, namely with rebounds and/or blocks. The one other guard is Tyreke Evans, who's been somewhat notorious as an empty stats player since his rookie season. That description also applies to some of the bigs on that list: Randolph (twice), Al Jefferson (twice), and Vucevic. Maybe it also applies to Drummond and I just hadn't realized it because I didn't know how much his shooting efficiency dropped since his first two seasons?

[Ccwatercraft]

Personally I felt his presence on the team was an asset. His wealth of experience and success can only rub off in a positive way.

[dougthonus]

If you want to talk about how good Wade is overall, rather than just as a scorer, the question becomes how much he's helping the team by taking a lot of shots and racking many blocks, steals, rebounds, and assists for a two guard. Is that him being a well-rounded player who helps the team in all sorts of ways? Or are some of those empty stats, some of which derive from him having the ball way more than he should?

Yes, I'm talking about Wade overall. I didn't think the list I generated was a particularly grand list of players either. There were 2 stars on it, but both scored more and had higher PERs. Everyone else on it was a middle class NBA player and far beneath the max.

I think that's probably a reasonable view of where Wade was last year. A middle class NBA player. Starting caliber, but not a great player. Probably a guy whose performance is worth about 15m a year (if he were 25), maybe a bit less due to lack of defensive ability which isn't covered well in base statistics.

[JeremyB0001]

If you want to talk about how good Wade is overall, rather than just as a scorer, the question becomes how much he's helping the team by taking a lot of shots and racking many blocks, steals, rebounds, and assists for a two guard. Is that him being a well-rounded player who helps the team in all sorts of ways? Or are some of those empty stats, some of which derive from him having the ball way more than he should?

Yes, I'm talking about Wade overall. I didn't think the list I generated was a particularly grand list of players either. There were 2 stars on it, but both scored more and had higher PERs. Everyone else on it was a middle class NBA player and far beneath the max.

I think that's probably a reasonable view of where Wade was last year. A middle class NBA player. Starting caliber, but not a great player. Probably a guy whose performance is worth about 15m a year (if he were 25), maybe a bit less due to lack of defensive ability which isn't covered well in base statistics.

I'm lower on him. I'd say that he's the caliber of an eighth man who's not deserving of more than the MLE. I think that his chucking is quite harmful in a way that's not perceived by PER, which actually gives him positive credit for shooting so much because it assumes his team needs the volume scoring, which wasn't the case last year with Butler around. And his defense is poor. So you've got him causing major problems on both ends of the floor and it's really just a question of how much that's offset by the way he's filling up the box score with more assists, blocks, steals, and rebounds that your average two guard. I feel like those contributions offset his otherwise poor performance some but not a great deal. The Bulls did benefit some from all the rebounding the guards did last season and from generating more turnovers than they had in recent seasons. But some of the numbers that Wade puts up also feel like empty stats. For instance, while he occasionally makes great passes, I think that a lot of his high assist rate is because he dominates the ball so much more than he should at this stage of his career.

At this point, I feel the same way about Wade that I do about Rose, whose name popped up on one of these lists of similar scorers. Rose also had the PER of a solid starter last season (17), which I feel also overstates his value. They shoot so much and so inefficiently that as part of the starting lineup for any decent team, they're hurting the offense a lot by taking worse shots than the ones that the starters would otherwise get. And they're bad at defense so they're hurting their teams on both ends as a starter. The most valuable skill that they have is shot creation. So the one way they can help a team is in a situation where a team's bench lineups have a bunch of role players who can't get up a lot of shots on their own and thus the team desperately needs some shot creation and volume scoring.

Sometimes we talk as though most every team needs an instant offense, shot creator on their bench unit but I think it's actually somewhat rare that a team needs a player like Rose or Wade. There are players like Lou Williams, who do what they do but much more efficiently. Teams with that type of superior version of Rose or Wade don't need them. And some teams don't need a volume scorer on their bench units at all. They can cobble together enough offense from a few players with moderate shot creation and volume scoring abilities or just by running great offensive sets. That leaves Wade and Rose as these players who would be valuable as a bench scorer on something like 20% or 35% of NBA teams, which doesn't speak too highly of them. If they could learn how to improve their efficiency by shooting less and only taking high-efficiency shots, they'd be a lot more versatile and thus more valuable. But I don't know whether they're capable of it. Wade couldn't do it next to Butler. Maybe he can do it if he reunites with LeBron.

[Ice Man]

OK, first, most Wade "haters" don't hate the guy, they just don't want him on the Chicago Bulls, because he's no longer a really good player, he has the most expensive contract on the squad, the team is in a youth movement, he was poor in the playoffs, he takes a lot of plays off, and/or he takes a lot of games off. Those are 6 valid reasons to want Wade off this team.

Second, to the extent that some do hate him, well there's more than 10 years of history of rooting hard against the guy, plus the sense that maybe he took our paycheck without having much respect for the fans or team.

As for me, I'm neutral. I don't care much about the guy either way. He's not relevant if he remains a Chicago Bull -- he won't matter much for this team, and not in the least for what happens in the league. If he leaves, he might be kinda interesting as a ring chaser, might have a role to play in the league yet.

[DanTown8587]

Here's how Wade's season went solely in terms of production

Missed games - 22
Bad games - 16 (really bad 8)
Average - 15
Above average/Very solid game - 19
Great games - 10 (super great 4)

That's not a bad year for a guy who's age 35, first year in a new system, playing in a heavily flawed offensive system. However, that's also no where close to the production his contract warrants nor does it really argue that the Bulls are better off eschewing their offensive philosophy and how hard they could play by giving Wade those minutes/opportunities.

To evaluate Wade's year solely relies on how much money he was given by the organization, something that Wade doesn't control. Wade didn't seem like a guy any differently than he was in Miami except for being a year older: he didn't shoot threes well, he needs a lot of nights off for maintenance at this point in his career, he's a questionable team defender who gambles for blocks/steals, he loves to complain to a ref 1-3 times a night that results in his team not having good defenders back, and he doesn't really believe in a motion offense predicated on ball and player movement for 48 minutes.

At the end of the day, I have no complaints with Wade about how he played or what he was able to do/not do for the team. My only problem with the Wade signing was the fact that the value with Wade came as a recruiter and someone who you should have used to get another guy here next to Jimmy so that you could build that type of team. If the organization had any doubts or concerns about building around Jimmy than they should have simply have traded Jimmy last year for as many 2017/2018 draft assets as they can and then let their team be bad and try to acquire as many high value picks during a rebuild as possible. Would the Celtics last summer have said no to the 2017 and 2018 Nets picks for Jimmy? Those are the deals they should have made. The Bulls, who should have maximized either around Jimmy or trading Jimmy, did neither.

[League Circles]

I don't really like Wade cause he's now a lazy vet, but last year the biggest problem was how poor of an on court fit he was with Jimmy. That problem should be alleviated this year. So I'm actually expecting him to have a more positive on court impact that he did due to better fit. Which is not ideal as we don't want to win games due to a 35 year old who isn't part of the future.

[Hangtime84]

I don't really like Wade cause he's now a lazy vet, but last year the biggest problem was how poor of an on court fit he was with Jimmy. That problem should be alleviated this year. So I'm actually expecting him to have a more positive on court impact that he did due to better fit. Which is not ideal as we don't want to win games due to a 35 year old who isn't part of the future.

He is lazy but i think its because of his body.

While Wade might be a better player Loul Deng trains much harder. Likewise with Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson.

[Dan Z]

Second, to the extent that some do hate him, well there's more than 10 years of history of rooting hard against the guy, plus the sense that maybe he took our paycheck without having much respect for the fans or team.

Wade claimed that he signed with The Bulls because he was coming "Home", but I think he just wanted the attention/money.

[Stratmaster]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Ernie Banks, Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, Tim Duncan, David Beckham, Eli Manning, Derek fisher, Jeremy Lin, Dirk Nowitzki, Phil Mickelson and Derrick Jeter all would have something to say about that.

[DanTown8587]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Ernie Banks, Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, Tim Duncan, David Beckham, Eli Manning, Derek fisher, Jeremy Lin, Dirk Nowitzki, Phil Mickelson and Derrick Jeter all would have something to say about that.

I won't get in to the fact that some of those guys are famously not humble because that's not the point. The vast majority of players in professional sports are barely in them and the line between in and out is millions to them. Look where Wade (the guy I mentioned specifically) came from

- Lightly recruited out of the south Suburbs of Chicago
- #5 pick but clearly not in the same conversation as the other guys in that 03 draft at the time
- Criticized for every title he won (06 was stolen by the refs, 12/13 were just riding James)

And I could go on and on. Sure some people are humble and that's great. But many players were born either in to terrible situations that humbleness doesn't help them get out or being humble wouldn't have gotten them to where they are today. I'm not saying "be an ****" but I don't ask my athletes to be humble, especially considering the way many fans treat them in life and on social media.

****. That.

[Bandit King]

He's a dbag plain and simple. Greedy SOB!

[Stratmaster]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Ernie Banks, Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, Tim Duncan, David Beckham, Eli Manning, Derek fisher, Jeremy Lin, Dirk Nowitzki, Phil Mickelson and Derrick Jeter all would have something to say about that.

I won't get in to the fact that some of those guys are famously not humble because that's not the point. The vast majority of players in professional sports are barely in them and the line between in and out is millions to them. Look where Wade (the guy I mentioned specifically) came from

- Lightly recruited out of the south Suburbs of Chicago
- #5 pick but clearly not in the same conversation as the other guys in that 03 draft at the time
- Criticized for every title he won (06 was stolen by the refs, 12/13 were just riding James)

And I could go on and on. Sure some people are humble and that's great. But many players were born either in to terrible situations that humbleness doesn't help them get out or being humble wouldn't have gotten them to where they are today. I'm not saying "be an ****" but I don't ask my athletes to be humble, especially considering the way many fans treat them in life and on social media.

****. That.

All of those names treated, or currently treat, their sport, the fans, and their teammates with respect. I could not care less whether they are humble about their skills behind closed doors or not. You don't see inflammatory quotes from them 5 times every season. You don't have to be an ass to be a great athlete...or anything else in life. I don't like people like that in any walk of life and you don't get a pass for being a dick just because you are an athlete. In fact, someone rewarded so highly for playing a game should be humbled even moreso by their situation

[MC3]

I hope buyout is soon reached, before start of season, before training camp. This douche shouldnt be on roster anymore

[Am2626]

I won't really hate him, I just hated the signing from the moment the rumor came up.

He stunted the growth of our young guys
He took away the ball from Jimmy
He took Jimmy and made him an even bigger diva
The team played better ball without him
The fit was absolutely horrible
He makes way too much money both these years

Basically this is on GarPax not seeing what the team needed.

This year I would just rather not see him at all in a Bulls uni. He just doesn't fit at all. Not last season not this season.

Our young guys last year weren't all that good. Who cares if they lost playing time to Wade?

[JordansBulls]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Ernie Banks, Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, Tim Duncan, David Beckham, Eli Manning, Derek fisher, Jeremy Lin, Dirk Nowitzki, Phil Mickelson and Derrick Jeter all would have something to say about that.

Michael Jordan as well was pretty humble.

[Dominator83]

It's funny that people don't realize the cut throat nature of professional sports then ask their stars to "be humble". You just don't that off.

Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Ernie Banks, Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant, Mike Trout, Tim Duncan, David Beckham, Eli Manning, Derek fisher, Jeremy Lin, Dirk Nowitzki, Phil Mickelson and Derrick Jeter all would have something to say about that.