Let's discuss Grant as our starting PG

ChiTownHero1992 · Post #41 » by **ChiTownHero1992** » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:18 pm

My eye tells me he is no better than a bench combo guard...he is not a starter by any means but can help fill in, in a pinch. I think it is stupid to hold on to him because he is not young enough to produce into something great...he's basically at his best now, besides that he is going to hinder the development of Dunn.

rowseyna · Post #42 » by **rowseyna** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:23 pm

sco wrote:He won the job fair and square (using some sort of dark magic to cause injury to his competition).

So what do we have in him?

My eyeball test tells me that he's more SG than PG. His handle looks loose at times and he's more shooter than facilitator. So I looked at RealGM preseason stats (assuming these are right) and

In 23.8 MPG, he managed over 6 asts per game (4th in the league!) with at 3/1 A/Tov ratio. Sure - not sustainable, but surprising. To be fair, it is way easier to get assists if you pass it to guys who don't play ISO ball and just shoot...even easier if they make shots.

He only scored 8.8 points per game. His fg% was only 40% but his 3pt FG% was 47% on 3.4 shots per game. He got 1 steal per game.

Other opinions?

We have a guard with great size, athleticism, defensive ability, strength, and shooting ability. He needs to work on his passing a little still, in my opinion. He's a smart, well-rounded guy with enough skill to run the point. We should keep in mind he's only entering his third season and is coming off of a very good year two. He had a very good preseason. He's done a great job running the offense and not turning the ball over. He's a very efficient scorer is not an overly aggressive one. I also think his defense is a little underrated.

rowseyna · Post #43 » by **rowseyna** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:24 pm

Ice Man wrote:I don't think he'll be starting at PG by mid-season. As you write, and as we all know, he's a tweener/combo guard, not a true PG. Somebody's gonna beat him out. The Bulls would love for that to be Dunn, and maybe it will be, but if he proves to be more of a defensive specialist than a true PG then Archie will get the job.

Yes, I left out Cameron Payne.

I think there's approximately a 0% chance that Ryan Arcidiacono beats out Jerian Grant as the starting PG for the Chicago Bulls.

rowseyna · Post #44 » by **rowseyna** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:24 pm

SimonFish wrote:Archie > Grant

Based on...? Certainly not preseason.

rowseyna · Post #45 » by **rowseyna** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Chi town wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:I like Grant, always have but he's not a PG. He's a combo guard. I think Dunn should start when he gets back.

This is where I am at too. Dunn has more PG in him than Grant. I’d like to see Dunn and Grant play together and Val and Grant. Fred has said his PGs will push the ball or sit. Grant rarely pushes the ball. Dunn and Archie both push.

I disagree with this. I think Grant has played with great pace during the preseason.

Watch on YouTube

weneeda2guard · Post #46 » by **weneeda2guard** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:36 pm

He is becoming more consistent, but in a league where superstar pgs do the winning, grant is just not on that level. Only other way to go, is if we either draft a superstar 2/3 who can also handle the ball, or draft or sign a star pg. Grant isn't going to cut it.

If the plan is a short rebuild with hoping to be competitive next season, then he can keep the seat warm til we sign a star pg, and I do think isaih thomas is a good pick up, only after he realizes he not getting a max tho.

Post #47 » by **DASMACKDOWN** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:44 pm

I like how the ball movement is, but we have absolutely nothing going towards the basket. Thats what hurts the most in terms of being consistent. We are going to need Grant, Dunn etc to be able to actually penetrate all the way in and finish.

MC3 · Post #48 » by **MC3** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:47 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:He is becoming more consistent, but in a league where superstar pgs do the winning, grant is just not on that level. Only other way to go, is if we either draft a superstar 2/3 who can also handle the ball, or draft or sign a star pg. Grant isn't going to cut it.

If the plan is a short rebuild with hoping to be competitive next season, then he can keep the seat warm til we sign a star pg, and I do think isaih thomas is a good pick up, only after he realizes he not getting a max tho.

sorry not investing any dollar(s) into small midget with hip problem and giving him long term deal at age of 29

weneeda2guard · Post #49 » by **weneeda2guard** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:52 pm

MC3 wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:He is becoming more consistent, but in a league where superstar pgs do the winning, grant is just not on that level. Only other way to go, is if we either draft a superstar 2/3 who can also handle the ball, or draft or sign a star pg. Grant isn't going to cut it.

If the plan is a short rebuild with hoping to be competitive next season, then he can keep the seat warm til we sign a star pg, and I do think isaih thomas is a good pick up, only after he realizes he not getting a max tho.

sorry not investing any dollar(s) into small midget with hip problem and giving him long term deal at age of 29

he is the kind of player you could steal on a deal that is favorable , once the idea of max is out his head and then we find a number that is good. Saying no money for him is like saying he is done in the league or something , which he is not. Thomas for max, no, thomas for a reasonable deal, I would do it.

ATRAIN53 · Post #50 » by **ATRAIN53** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:38 pm

Being a lottery pick was huge for Dunn in terms of $$$
Same for Payne

Grant thought he was draft lottery material but he fell out of it due to underclassmen and overseas talent. It's sorta of like Arenas who fell out of Round 1 and wants to prove something.

He knows he laid an egg in the playoffs. He was way overmatched by Bradley and IT.
But that drove him to put int he work this summer and it really seems to be paying off now.

Camp opened, Hoiberg said it was a competiton and you basically gave Jerain a chance to prove he can outwork and outplay these 2 guys. Health, desire, effort - call it what you want but he wanted it and took it.

He's hungry, he wants to make $$$$ and he's got size. He just needs a legit shot to play (and fail) and learn from it.
Kinda player I want on my team, I've loved this kid since the first time I saw him at ND :love:

kodo · Post #51 » by **kodo** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:51 pm

Grant is fine for a pace & space offense. On handoff plays where nobody holds the ball for more than 1 second and 4 guys touch the rock, there is no such thing as a point.

Where having Grant will be painful is on traditional P&R type plays where the point holds the rock for the entire possession dancing around looking for something. I saw multiple times where Grant missed open guys, especially bigs. Ryan looked better at finding guys.

That all just points to what we already knew, Grant is any kind of long term solution at PG. But he’s good as an eventual backup in this system, especially considering his defense. He was #7 in defensive RPM last season among PGs. That makes him a logical backcourt partner to Lavine.

Plus he’s related to Horace.

Chi town · Post #52 » by **Chi town** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:24 pm

If Dunn doesn't impress and we get Doncic in the draft I like the idea of signing Avery Bradley as our PG and letting him defend PG's and Doncic be the PG. I've like Bradley for a long time and think he is one of the best defenders in the league. Dunn could come off the bench in the Marcus Smart role.

Chi town · Post #53 » by **Chi town** » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm

Bradley will be 27 next month. You are signing him for his prime.

Chitownbulls · Post #54 » by **Chitownbulls** » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:38 am

ChiTownHero1992 wrote:My eye tells me he is no better than a bench combo guard...he is not a starter by any means but can help fill in, in a pinch. I think it is stupid to hold on to him because he is not young enough to produce into something great...he's basically at his best now, besides that he is going to hinder the development of Dunn.

THIS 100%....He's a career backup. Probably wouldnt play much if he was on a good team. Paxson only wanted him because he was from Notre Dame an hes Horace Grants nephew. He's a bum.

Dunn should be getting all the minutes possible.

MC3 · Post #55 » by **MC3** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:32 pm

I wonder how many games will pass before Fred realizes Grant can't play PG and set up offense. I wonder how soon Dunn will get starting sport and Felder will be back up as he will move Grant to be SG. I would say if he was good coach around 10 games after last night. But given Fred isnt smartest guy I say half a season.

Post #56 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:41 pm

He won't be for long.

MarkDeeks · Post #57 » by **MarkDeeks** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:50 pm

The Payne thing has become so massively overblown by a fanbase baying for blood, looking for reasons to be critical of ownership and management, buoyed that one article by that one guy with that one quote from that one source that was so emphatic, and exactly what people who want to be critical want to hear. Payne was crap last year for both the Bulls and the Thunder, and was then also crap in summer league. It was a total nothing year. Injuries and subsequent loss of confidence will do that to a guy. But there's more to go on here than just the selectively chosen bad bits. The rookie year Payne was pretty good, as was the Murray State Payne. That player didn't just disappear. They just got a bit lost. Rather than write off the player, write off the year.

MarkDeeks · Post #58 » by **MarkDeeks** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:58 pm

This isn't the most impassioned defence of Payne who it is hard to imagine ever being an NBA starter. But the whole "cut Payne" thing was such a silly overembellishment based largely on one frigging quote.

sco · Post #59 » by **sco** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:11 pm

On Grant, I keep seeing Kirk in him. It's good and bad. I like the kid. He plays hard on both ends. He has a nice 3pt shot. His weakness is that he lacks vision and the ability to set his teammates up for open shots. I am rooting for him to improve this year, but I am already ready for the Dunn era to start.

On Payne (not sure why we're on Payne). He needs (years) in the G-League to develop a game. Keeping or dumping him comes down to the opportunity cost vs. who else we could grab.

Post #60 » by **GimmeDat** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:13 pm

MarkDeeks wrote:The Payne thing has become so massively overblown by a fanbase baying for blood, looking for reasons to be critical of ownership and management, buoyed that one article by that one guy with that one quote from that one source that was so emphatic, and exactly what people who want to be critical want to hear. Payne was crap last year for both the Bulls and the Thunder, and was then also crap in summer league. It was a total nothing year. Injuries and subsequent loss of confidence will do that to a guy. But there's more to go on here than just the selectively chosen bad bits. The rookie year Payne was pretty good, as was the Murray State Payne. That player didn't just disappear. They just got a bit lost. Rather than write off the player, write off the year.

I hate to admit it now, but I was kind of open to the trade at the time, for the sole reason that I thought Payne was a decent prospect. He seemed like a pretty complete prospect (good shooter, facilitator, quick, undersized but not tiny) coming in pre-draft, and he had a pretty solid rookie season - statistically, it's far better than anything he's produced since. I spoke to OKC fans on here when the trade happened and even recently, and they all liked him.

However, I don't blame people for their opinions just because he was so abysmal all of last season. Maybe it was due to the injuries and coming back from that, but the way he looked in tiny glimpse we saw in Summer League, it made me lose what little confidence I had for him to come back and be a serviceable piece for us. Whatever caused his drop in play may be permanent, and for a guy that's injured yet again, is now 23, and doesn't have a ceiling high enough to really justify playing over guys like Grant or Dunn, I can't help but think he has to be pretty high on the list of guys to cut if you had to.

He just looks like he lost his quickness so settled for his (sub-par) 3 ball most of the time (his per/36 3 ball attempts surpassed Valentine and Mirotic last season, and they love chucking them up), never really made plays for others or looked like he had a good feel for the game as a PG (perhaps losing the ability to beat his defender and create lanes hurt this).

Maybe the old Payne was on track to become a decent NBA player, but if his play post-trade is anything to go by, he's lost all that made him an effective PG.