Tank Tracker: Felicio and Nwaba to start! p67

[Red Larrivee]

This season sole purpose was to secure a top3 lottery pick. Stevie Wonder knew that! Yes we allow players to develop but the puppet coaching staff controls the DNPs and minute distribution. This is complete hogwash if we don't secure a top 3 lottery pick. Lavine should not be playing in back to back games, Lopez nor Holiday should not exceed 20 MPG. Where are our G-League Players? Arcin, Blakney? Play Zipser and Felicio more.

This season was meant to be the Bulls TANK! We are blowing our top lottery chances by winning these meaningless games!

We're just not as bad as the teams in front of us. It's not hard for Atlanta or Phoenix to be worse. That's just who they are.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[fleet]

I just want a top 7 pick, please!!! It should be doable with Brooklyn having no incentive to tank. But the Knicks are going to race to the bottom. They will be hard to "hold off."

Request denied.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

This season sole purpose was to secure a top3 lottery pick. Stevie Wonder knew that! Yes we allow players to develop but the puppet coaching staff controls the DNPs and minute distribution. This is complete hogwash if we don't secure a top 3 lottery pick. Lavine should not be playing in back to back games, Lopez nor Holiday should not exceed 20 MPG. Where are our G-League Players? Arcin, Blakney? Play Zipser and Felicio more.

This season was meant to be the Bulls TANK! We are blowing our top lottery chances by winning these meaningless games!

We're just not as bad as the teams in front of us. It's not hard for Atlanta or Phoenix to be worse. That's just who they are.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It's like some folks have completely forgotten that before the season started, very few had us winning 30 games, and the majority had us below 25.

And that was with Niko not missing 23 games, Portis not missing 8, and LaVine not coming back until mid-January.

What can you do when the team is just simply much better than anyone gave them credit for?

Teams generally don't start to "tank" with the roster they have until after the ASB. We'll see happens, but what if everyone is just as wrong about SloLo/Felicio and Chuck/Zipser? What's going to be mood if Felicio and Zipser start playing 30 minutes, and Pain and Vonleh get 20, and we still win more games than people think we should?

People should be absolutely thrilled with our roster, we have a lot more talent than the rest of the rebuilding teams, meaning we're a lot closer to relevance than ATL and DAL and BKN and SAC.

We can trade Dunn and Lauri and LaVine this summer and damn near guarantee ourselves top-5 picks over the next 3 years, I honestly think a few Bulls fan would prefer that.

[jump]

I'm hoping for top 8. The final order always shifts after March Madness and probably again after the combine. But I suspect the final order is going to go something like the following. I think Trae Young will sink and Wendell Carter will rise (after he out performs Bagley in the tournament). I also suspect that there is another sleeper out there we haven't considered, who will charge up the ladder before the draft.

But if we can secure the #8 spot, I would be happy with any of the following 8 (as long as it's not Young). That being said, I have this premonition that the Bulls are going to get the #3 through the luck of the lottery. But we won't pick Bagley.

Ayton
Doncic
Bagley
Carter
Porter
JJJ
Young
Bamba

[Taikuri]

Next game is on Thursday, Philly at Chicago. Looks like an easy loss. Probably not even needed to put the new tank rotation of players on yet. Maybe a light version of it? Home game does increase the odds of Chicago making an upset and winning that game though.

Same day:
Knicks at Orlando - both teams want to lose. Hopefully Orlando wins their home game.

[coldfish]

This season sole purpose was to secure a top3 lottery pick. Stevie Wonder knew that! Yes we allow players to develop but the puppet coaching staff controls the DNPs and minute distribution. This is complete hogwash if we don't secure a top 3 lottery pick. Lavine should not be playing in back to back games, Lopez nor Holiday should not exceed 20 MPG. Where are our G-League Players? Arcin, Blakney? Play Zipser and Felicio more.

This season was meant to be the Bulls TANK! We are blowing our top lottery chances by winning these meaningless games!

We're just not as bad as the teams in front of us. It's not hard for Atlanta or Phoenix to be worse. That's just who they are.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It's like some folks have completely forgotten that before the season started, very few had us winning 30 games, and the majority had us below 25.

And that was with Niko not missing 23 games, Portis not missing 8, and LaVine not coming back until mid-January.

What can you do when the team is just simply much better than anyone gave them credit for?

Teams generally don't start to "tank" with the roster they have until after the ASB. We'll see happens, but what if everyone is just as wrong about SloLo/Felicio and Chuck/Zipser? What's going to be mood if Felicio and Zipser start playing 30 minutes, and Pain and Vonleh get 20, and we still win more games than people think we should?

People should be absolutely thrilled with our roster, we have a lot more talent than the rest of the rebuilding teams, meaning we're a lot closer to relevance than ATL and DAL and BKN and SAC.

We can trade Dunn and Lauri and LaVine this summer and damn near guarantee ourselves top-5 picks over the next 3 years, I honestly think a few Bulls fan would prefer that.

As someone who absolutely hated the roster before the season, I have to concur. I thought this was a 15 win team. Early on, it actually was. However, things turned around and the team is simply not the awful pile of crap that it needs to be in order to get an ultra high pick.

It seems hypocritical to criticize the Bulls for winning the way they are playing. If they were playing their 5 best guys 40 minutes a night in an effort to win a few more games, then yeah, bash away. They aren't though. The talent is simply too good for a bottom pick.

With that said, people are freaking out a little too much about the position. Chicago is 2 wins ahead of the worst record in the league. Its unbelievably tight from 1 to 8. If not for that winning 10 of 12 streak, Chicago would be way ahead in the lottery ball competition.

[Rerisen]

It seems hypocritical to criticize the Bulls for winning the way they are playing. If they were playing their 5 best guys 40 minutes a night in an effort to win a few more games, then yeah, bash away. They aren't though. The talent is simply too good for a bottom pick.

Not sure if you've been watching all the games this year (?) but people have been criticizing because the Bulls are not winning with lineups including Dunn, Lavine and Lauri primarily, rather its largely a bunch of superflous players that won't be here when we are contending that has made the team way more competitive than it needs to, or should have been, this year.

Heck just without Mirotic the team is 6-26. Beyond him, the best players results wise have been RoLo, Holiday, Nwaba and Portis.

So its not even like there is a silver lining, where you could say, hey we won't get a great pick, but on the other hand our young talent is way ahead of where we thought. It's really not way ahead by the numbers. The teams wins are due to too much mediocre depth, that is unnecessary to have onboard right now.

[coldfish]

It seems hypocritical to criticize the Bulls for winning the way they are playing. If they were playing their 5 best guys 40 minutes a night in an effort to win a few more games, then yeah, bash away. They aren't though. The talent is simply too good for a bottom pick.

Not sure if you've been watching all the games this year (?) but people have been criticizing because the Bulls are not winning with lineups including Dunn, Lavine and Lauri primarily, rather its largely a bunch of superflous players that won't be here when we are contending that has made the team way more competitive than it needs to, or should have been, this year.

Heck just without Mirotic the team is 6-26. Beyond him, the best players results wise have been RoLo, Holiday, Nwaba and Portis.

So its not even like there is a silver lining, where you could say, hey we won't get a great pick, but on the other hand our young talent is way ahead of where we thought. It's really not way ahead by the numbers. The teams wins are due to too much mediocre depth, that is unnecessary to have onboard right now.

I have watched less than a quarter of the games.

I'm not sure where you are going here though. Basically everyone plays and as you note, the depth is good enough to keep them from losing. And yeah, like I said, that 10 of 13 streak really changed up the numbers.

Again, as I said though, the Bulls are actually pretty close to having a high lottery pick. People are freaking out way too much about this.

[transplant]

The Bulls went from 3-20 to 13-22. Obviously, this is the defining aspect of the Bulls attempted tank. It may have cost them the "tank championship," but it helped get them acquire an additional first rounder.

I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I have trouble being bummed about this.

[Kurt Heimlich]

The Bulls went from 3-20 to 13-22. Obviously, this is the defining aspect of the Bulls attempted tank. It may have cost them the "tank championship," but it helped get them acquire an additional first rounder.

I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I have trouble being bummed about this.

Would you trade the 1st pick for the 8th and 17th pick? Or the 4th for the 8th and 17th?

That's why I think a lot of folks are bummed about the situation. The only value resigning Niko now had to us is that NOP pick (disregarding the bad salary we also took on). But in retrospect resigning and playing him probably cost us a handful of games in the tank standings for no good reason (other than that NOP pick of course).

I don't really fault GarPax for how things played out. But it does kinda suck that Niko, a guy no longer a part of the future of this team, cost us several games in the tank standings which may very likely end up directly resulting in significant difference in pick position. But if we can make up those "lost" Niko games and round back into the top 7 (idealy top 5) then that extra NOP is certainly icing on the cake.

[TheFinishSniper]

The Bulls went from 3-20 to 13-22. Obviously, this is the defining aspect of the Bulls attempted tank. It may have cost them the "tank championship," but it helped get them acquire an additional first rounder.

I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I have trouble being bummed about this.

Would you trade the 1st pick for the 8th and 17th pick? Or the 4th for the 8th and 17th?

That's why I think a lot of folks are bummed about the situation. The only value resigning Niko now had to us is that NOP pick (disregarding the bad salary we also took on). But in retrospect resigning and playing him probably cost us a handful of games in the tank standings for no good reason (other than that NOP pick of course).

I don't really fault GarPax for how things played out. But it does kinda suck that Niko, a guy no longer a part of the future of this team, cost us several games in the tank standings which may very likely end up directly resulting in significant difference in pick position. But if we can make up those "lost" Niko games and round back into the top 7 (idealy top 5) then that extra NOP is certainly icing on the cake.

you need to look on other side also. Bulls have two lottery 1st, meaning two chances to get it right instead just one. That's the odds you getting. If Bulls do proper scouting they could pick two good players instead just one even though that one pick may have higher ceiling. But again it's just one chance to get it right. In theory you want multiple chances to nail it.

Given how recent drafting has gone over the years wouldnt be suprised if guy picked with Pelicans pick end up being a better player than a guy with our own. Perfect example of this are Lakers where they possibly got better player at #27 than at #2 in same draft.

[Kurt Heimlich]

The Bulls went from 3-20 to 13-22. Obviously, this is the defining aspect of the Bulls attempted tank. It may have cost them the "tank championship," but it helped get them acquire an additional first rounder.

I understand wanting to have your cake and eat it too, but I have trouble being bummed about this.

Would you trade the 1st pick for the 8th and 17th pick? Or the 4th for the 8th and 17th?

That's why I think a lot of folks are bummed about the situation. The only value resigning Niko now had to us is that NOP pick (disregarding the bad salary we also took on). But in retrospect resigning and playing him probably cost us a handful of games in the tank standings for no good reason (other than that NOP pick of course).

I don't really fault GarPax for how things played out. But it does kinda suck that Niko, a guy no longer a part of the future of this team, cost us several games in the tank standings which may very likely end up directly resulting in significant difference in pick position. But if we can make up those "lost" Niko games and round back into the top 7 (idealy top 5) then that extra NOP is certainly icing on the cake.

you need to look on other side also. Bulls have two lottery 1st, meaning two chances to get it right instead just one. That's the odds you getting. If Bulls do proper scouting they could pick two good players instead just one even though that one pick may have higher ceiling. But again it's just one chance to get it right. In theory you want multiple chances to nail it.

Given how recent drafting has gone over the years wouldnt be suprised if guy picked with Pelicans pick end up being a better player than a guy with our own. Perfect example of this are Lakers where they possibly got better player at #27 than at #2 in same draft.

Eh saying 2 lotto picks isn't telling the whole story, were at 8 and 17 right now. But I appreciate your point. And we were recently on the wrong side of a 2 for 1 draft pick deal gone horribly wrong with dougie for Garry Harris and jusef nurkic deal in 2014.

Ultimately it is imperative that we lose as much as possible over these last 26 games. Explicitly by benching guys like rolo and holiday in favor of felicio zipser and payne.

Rolo and holiday are great for being positive examples to the young guys, especially with their hard working practice habits as reported. But winning directly because of their performances serves only as a detriment to this teams future.

[Rerisen]

I have watched less than a quarter of the games.

I'm not sure where you are going here though. Basically everyone plays and as you note, the depth is good enough to keep them from losing. And yeah, like I said, that 10 of 13 streak really changed up the numbers.

Again, as I said though, the Bulls are actually pretty close to having a high lottery pick. People are freaking out way too much about this.

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard, even after the point they saw guys like Robin and Holiday were helping too much.

If the rotation was simply the 3 guys returned for Jimmy plus maybe Portis, then surrounded by guys like Felicio and Arcidiacono, we'd have no trouble getting a Top 3.

The only reason I can see they would want to keep the others around is if the org has naive notions about being competitive again next year already, which would be a foolish way to do a rebuild. That is unless they want to be right back where they were Jimmy, but just with a cheaper payroll.

[kodo]

Same day:
Knicks at Orlando - both teams want to lose. Hopefully Orlando wins their home game.

Prefer NY to win.

We're not going to catch Orlando.
But NY is right behind us, they have a real chance of taking our spot.

[bulls4ever]

i was no against the streak with niko. i think he was for real and f wanst the trade request and fact he will demand tons of money before we are ready he could have been part of the core.
he landed a mid 1st pick. not bad

but without him, it has to be a tank mission. we have to get a top 5 pick. top 3 would be ideal.

i freak out because we play TONS of games against bottom 5-7 and we beat them all so far. that means, lots of potential wins if we are not tanking properly.

we could easily move to the #8-11 spot by winning those games.

[bulls4ever]

Same day:
Knicks at Orlando - both teams want to lose. Hopefully Orlando wins their home game.

Prefer NY to win.

We're not going to catch Orlando.
But NY is right behind us, they have a real chance of taking our spot.

i prefer Orlando to win. Maybe that open the eyes of our FO that we have to tank no matter what as we are very close to the #1 but could slide to #11 if we dont tank

[League Circles]

I have watched less than a quarter of the games.

I'm not sure where you are going here though. Basically everyone plays and as you note, the depth is good enough to keep them from losing. And yeah, like I said, that 10 of 13 streak really changed up the numbers.

Again, as I said though, the Bulls are actually pretty close to having a high lottery pick. People are freaking out way too much about this.

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard, even after the point they saw guys like Robin and Holiday were helping too much.

If the rotation was simply the 3 guys returned for Jimmy plus maybe Portis, then surrounded by guys like Felicio and Arcidiacono, we'd have no trouble getting a Top 3.

The only reason I can see they would want to keep the others around is if the org has naive notions about being competitive again next year already, which would be a foolish way to do a rebuild. That is unless they want to be right back where they were Jimmy, but just with a cheaper payroll.

No trouble getting a top 3 pick or top 3 odds? It's very hard to get a top 3 pick. Only 1 or 2 teams project to get one.

Niko's win shares were 2.1 with us, and while Lopez and Holiday were right about the same, their WS/48 are both terrible, 10th and 11th on the roster.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

I have watched less than a quarter of the games.

I'm not sure where you are going here though. Basically everyone plays and as you note, the depth is good enough to keep them from losing. And yeah, like I said, that 10 of 13 streak really changed up the numbers.

Again, as I said though, the Bulls are actually pretty close to having a high lottery pick. People are freaking out way too much about this.

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard, even after the point they saw guys like Robin and Holiday were helping too much.

If the rotation was simply the 3 guys returned for Jimmy plus maybe Portis, then surrounded by guys like Felicio and Arcidiacono, we'd have no trouble getting a Top 3.

The only reason I can see they would want to keep the others around is if the org has naive notions about being competitive again next year already, which would be a foolish way to do a rebuild. That is unless they want to be right back where they were Jimmy, but just with a cheaper payroll.

No trouble getting a top 3 pick or top 3 odds? It's very hard to get a top 3 pick. Only 1 or 2 teams project to get one.

Niko's win shares were 2.1 with us, and while Lopez and Holiday were right about the same, their WS/48 are both terrible, 10th and 11th on the roster.

People were just so blatantly wrong about this team, apparently they still can't deal with it.

How many times in the past month have we read this exact statement or something amazingly similar:

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard

Not to pick on Rerisen, he just happened to be quoted in your post, but the majority of this board thought we were set up to be top-3.

I guess I have to keep saying it - before the season, over 50% of the folks here who voted in the "how many wins" thread had us at 25 wins or less.

And that was with a healthy Niko

And a healthy Dunn

And a non-suspended Portis

And a LaVine who didn't wait until mid-January to make his return.

I've yet to get any explanation from anyone who had us at 25 wins or less, it's reached the point where the only assumption I can make is that those folks are still just grossly wrong about the level of talent on this team.

Just like they were last season when we were "Jimmy and a bunch of garbage", and just like they were this season, when we were a 25-win team AT BEST.

And like you have said many times LC, SloLo and Chuck are 10th and 11th in WS/48, how the hell are they helping us win? And this wisdom is coming from a lot of people who put a hell of a lot of stock into advanced stats. Even pointing out on many, many occasions how highly SloLo and Chuck rank in WS as some sort of proof that they are causing our wins... when it's basic common sense that WS/48 is infinitely more accurate.

You wouldn't say "Lopez and Holiday are killing the tank, they are each scoring 10 points per game. Let's put in Felicio and Zipser, they only score 5 points per game"... and leave out the fact that Lopez and Holiday are playing 30 minutes to get their 10 points while Felicio and Zipser are playing 10 minutes to get their 5 points?*

You wouldn't think so, but that's exactly what people are doing with their Total WS argument.

Now folks who couldn't help but tell us over and over and over how much Niko and Dunn and LaVine and Lauri and Portis sucked - only to wind up being incredibly wrong - are going to keep saying that Felicio and Zipser suck so much that they'll cause us to go on a 20-game losing streak**... and we're supposed to take them seriously?

==================================

*- not actual stats, numbers used to make a point
**- nobody actually said we'll go on a 20-game losing streak if Cris and Zippy start getting big minutes, again just making a point

[kyrv]

I have watched less than a quarter of the games.

I'm not sure where you are going here though. Basically everyone plays and as you note, the depth is good enough to keep them from losing. And yeah, like I said, that 10 of 13 streak really changed up the numbers.

Again, as I said though, the Bulls are actually pretty close to having a high lottery pick. People are freaking out way too much about this.

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard, even after the point they saw guys like Robin and Holiday were helping too much.

If the rotation was simply the 3 guys returned for Jimmy plus maybe Portis, then surrounded by guys like Felicio and Arcidiacono, we'd have no trouble getting a Top 3.

The only reason I can see they would want to keep the others around is if the org has naive notions about being competitive again next year already, which would be a foolish way to do a rebuild. That is unless they want to be right back where they were Jimmy, but just with a cheaper payroll.

I agree with Fish, I thought this roster was trash and bottom of the league. They aren't though.

But as transplant noted, the hot stretch is what did it, they have been very bad besides that. And that stretch netted another first, as again transplant noticed.

Team is MILES better off now than what I had envisioned.

[kyrv]

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard, even after the point they saw guys like Robin and Holiday were helping too much.

If the rotation was simply the 3 guys returned for Jimmy plus maybe Portis, then surrounded by guys like Felicio and Arcidiacono, we'd have no trouble getting a Top 3.

The only reason I can see they would want to keep the others around is if the org has naive notions about being competitive again next year already, which would be a foolish way to do a rebuild. That is unless they want to be right back where they were Jimmy, but just with a cheaper payroll.

No trouble getting a top 3 pick or top 3 odds? It's very hard to get a top 3 pick. Only 1 or 2 teams project to get one.

Niko's win shares were 2.1 with us, and while Lopez and Holiday were right about the same, their WS/48 are both terrible, 10th and 11th on the roster.

People were just so blatantly wrong about this team, apparently they still can't deal with it.

How many times in the past month have we read this exact statement or something amazingly similar:

It's just hard to see why the team wasn't setup to get a Top 3 which wouldn't be very hard

Not to pick on Rerisen, he just happened to be quoted in your post, but the majority of this board thought we were set up to be top-3.

I guess I have to keep saying it - before the season, over 50% of the folks here who voted in the "how many wins" thread had us at 25 wins or less.

And that was with a healthy Niko

And a healthy Dunn

And a non-suspended Portis

And a LaVine who didn't wait until mid-January to make his return.

I've yet to get any explanation from anyone who had us at 25 wins or less, it's reached the point where the only assumption I can make is that those folks are still just grossly wrong about the level of talent on this team.

Just like they were last season when we were "Jimmy and a bunch of garbage", and just like they were this season, when we were a 25-win team AT BEST.

And like you have said many times LC, SloLo and Chuck are 10th and 11th in WS/48, how the hell are they helping us win? And this wisdom is coming from a lot of people who put a hell of a lot of stock into advanced stats. Even pointing out on many, many occasions how highly SloLo and Chuck rank in WS as some sort of proof that they are causing our wins... when it's basic common sense that WS/48 is infinitely more accurate.

You wouldn't say "Lopez and Holiday are killing the tank, they are each scoring 10 points per game. Let's put in Felicio and Zipser, they only score 5 points per game"... and leave out the fact that Lopez and Holiday are playing 30 minutes to get their 10 points while Felicio and Zipser are playing 10 minutes to get their 5 points?*

You wouldn't think so, but that's exactly what people are doing with their Total WS argument.

Now folks who couldn't help but tell us over and over and over how much Niko and Dunn and LaVine and Lauri and Portis sucked - only to wind up being incredibly wrong - are going to keep saying that Felicio and Zipser suck so much that they'll cause us to go on a 20-game losing streak**... and we're supposed to take them seriously?

==================================

*- not actual stats, numbers used to make a point
**- nobody actually said we'll go on a 20-game losing streak if Cris and Zippy start getting big minutes, again just making a point

You, sir, are not incorrect. It is kind of funny. Bulls should pick at an okay slot. Maybe we'll get lucky. What do you say Adam?