PG: 2 game wost streak

[Indomitable]

As an example, trading Niko for a late first or a 2nd round pick would be in my mind an unforgivable move. He is more than good enough to be a rotation player on a championship contender as a 6th/7th man off the bench.

Perhaps he is, but how do you play Niko on this team going forward? In his own mind, he's still a starter.

It's just so weird to even still have a player like him on a tanking team. People have said the same about RoLo, but he's a special case - a selfless workhorse whose motives are incomprehensible for us mere mortals.

I mean every player in the NBA believes they're a starter, don't see why we should hold this against Niko and not others. Valentine's out here comparing himself to Wade, everyone's confident, everyone believes in themselves.

Excelllent post

[Stratmaster]

We don't agree on the value of that "top 12 player". Knowing your opinion of Butler I understand why you would feel the way you do.

I don't agree they have to Hinkie it. In fact, the Hinkie approach has yet to ever work. All it does is add years to the misery.

Not saying you believe this (maybe you do?) but it would be baffling to me that anyone could think that if the Butler years were misery themselves, that we would somehow be able to soar past that level of success by being bad for only 1 season.

Rationally there is such little chance for that to work unless they hit the jackpot with the one single high pick we'll get this summer.

Otherwise, we'd be more likely to simply spend years duplicating the very team we just blew up.

I didn't think the Butler years were misery. I think the Butler years could have been very successful with a different approach from Jimmy Butler...but there again we will never see eye to eye on Butler so we won't likely agree on this point either.

[kingkirk]

Thanks for writing about MY favorite Bull.

Can't go wrong covering an emerging fan favorite.

His baseline play really does remind me of Ronnie Brewer, a comparison I heard Stacey stealing.

Though Nwaba is more athletic than the Ronnie we got, post ankle injury, and also more adept at finishing, where Brewer had problems.

But they are similar in ability to have efficient mid-volume scoring games based around 2 pointers, without needing the ball or plays ran for them. And of course the defense.

A more athletic Brewer really is an apt comparison. They both use the baseline as the same way.

He's been a great pickup by the FO. Maybe too good. The bench has gone from being a serious weaknesses to very competent overnight with Mirotic and Nwaba replacing Pondexter and Felicio. I'm not expecting the Bulls to start winning games at too much of a higher rater, but they'll stay in games much easier.

[Dresden]

We don't agree on the value of that "top 12 player". Knowing your opinion of Butler I understand why you would feel the way you do.

I don't agree they have to Hinkie it. In fact, the Hinkie approach has yet to ever work. All it does is add years to the misery.

Not saying you believe this (maybe you do?) but it would be baffling to me that anyone could think that if the Butler years were misery themselves, that we would somehow be able to soar past that level of success by being bad for only 1 season.

Rationally there is such little chance for that to work unless they hit the jackpot with the one single high pick we'll get this summer.

Otherwise, we'd be more likely to simply spend years duplicating the very team we just blew up.

Highly disagree. the team we blew up had little chance of getting any better, and a big chance of getting worse because of the age of two of their three best players (Rondo/Wade). We are not going to replicate that- we are starting over with young players who hopefully have a lot of potential. And then we will have these players as they develop into their prime.

[Rerisen]

Highly disagree. the team we blew up had little chance of getting any better, and a big chance of getting worse because of the age of two of their three best players (Rondo/Wade). We are not going to replicate that- we are starting over with young players who hopefully have a lot of potential. And then we will have these players as they develop into their prime.

Young players will get better, but young superstars are most often obvious in their talent and ability, and we don't have that yet.

Unless you get one then regardless of internal growth, a team is likely to have a ceiling that at most is the Budenholzer Hawks. And most don't even get that far without a franchise player.

The Bulls best bet to get that guy is with a high lottery pick, that's why it would be extremely dangerous to get too good too fast, try to win too soon, or to even have our young players start advancing at a rate that could wreck getting those picks.

If we only have next summer as a top 3 pick year, then that 1 pick could very will determine the entire rebuild.

3 or 4 years ago the Magic thought they had a great young core of improving young guys in Oladipo, Gordon, Vucevic, Fournier, Payton. Easily a match and more vs what we have in place, fast forward several years to today and they are still nowhere, a big mess. Getting a superstar talent or not makes all the difference. Until you have it, might as well just keep on tanking. Especially when you are already bad.

So if you aren't going to try to win with a playoff team around a top 12 player in Butler, it would be many times more illogical and stupid to start trying to win without even having a player as good as that.

The age of young players is drastically overrated as equating with limitless growth. The truth is that by the 3rd year most players are already done with their major growth, close to plateauing and will from then on just make minor tweaks. A guy like Jimmy Butler is an extreme anomaly, blossoming into a star so late, and a poor example to cite as a likely occurrence for other players, yet for some reason I see his career arc cited all the time as if its common or likely for guys like Dunn or LaVine.

[dumbell78]

Nwaba is a keeper, tank or no tank. Solid rotational player.

[Dresden]

Highly disagree. the team we blew up had little chance of getting any better, and a big chance of getting worse because of the age of two of their three best players (Rondo/Wade). We are not going to replicate that- we are starting over with young players who hopefully have a lot of potential. And then we will have these players as they develop into their prime.

Young players will get better, but young superstars are most often obvious in their talent and ability, and we don't have that yet.

Unless you get one then regardless of internal growth, a team is likely to have a ceiling that at most is the Budenholzer Hawks. And most don't even get that far without a franchise player.

The Bulls best bet to get that guy is with a high lottery pick, that's why it would be extremely dangerous to get too good too fast, try to win too soon, or to even have our young players start advancing at a rate that could wreck getting those picks.

If we only have next summer as a top 3 pick year, then that 1 pick could very will determine the entire rebuild.

3 or 4 years ago the Magic thought they had a great young core of improving young guys in Oladipo, Gordon, Vucevic, Fournier, Payton. Easily a match and more vs what we have in place, fast forward several years to today and they are still nowhere, a big mess. Getting a superstar talent or not makes all the difference. Until you have it, might as well just keep on tanking. Especially when you are already bad.

So if you aren't going to try to win with a playoff team around a top 12 player in Butler, it would be many times more illogical and stupid to start trying to win without even having a player as good as that.

The age of young players is drastically overrated as equating with limitless growth. The truth is that by the 3rd year most players are already done with their major growth, close to plateauing and will from then on just make minor tweaks. A guy like Jimmy Butler is an extreme anomaly, blossoming into a star so late, and a poor example to cite as a likely occurrence for other players, yet for some reason I see his career arc cited all the time as if its common or likely for guys like Dunn or LaVine.

I guess we were arguing different points. My argument was that the Butler era Bulls had no chance of going anywhere, so blowing it up was a smart decision. I think you are saying that if we only have one high draft pick to show for that (the 2018 pick), the chances of the new team being any better than the Butler team are minimal. I see your point on that. Although you just never know how good some of our players will be yet. Dunn is in his second year. Lauri his first. And I think this upcoming draft is loaded with franchise players at the top. So I much prefer this route, even if nothing is guaranteed. At least there are possibilities, whereas we had none with the old team. And you never know- if we get a core of good young exciting talent, we may just be able to lure a true superstar here as a FA- a Giannis or AD or who knows who else. At least there is something too look forward to.

But I do concur that ideally, we'd get two top 5 picks. Or it's possible we get a perennial all-star player this year, and next draft, picking in the 7-14 range, we get lucky and get a star at that pick. Not great odds, I know, but it happens.

[waffle]

The trade was absolutely a win.
I loved Jimmy and defended him from the moment we signed him. Was sad to see him go but it made sense to move him when we did.

I asked this before. How many people would trade Jimmy straight up for Lauri today? YES, given their age and contract status'

Plus we got that Dunn guy. Plus we got the wildcard in Lavine who theoretically was the cream of the trade

Plus we played atrocious basketball for a month + while we tried to figure out what we had. Putting us in a REALLY good position to suck in a year when suckage seems like an awesome idea.

That trade worked on almost every level. This is almost a perfect storm tank job.

Could it still not work out? SURE, but there are 30 other teams trying to compete as well, we are just looking for a formula to be one of them, and this formula gives us a realistic path forward.

[DuckIII]

In my opinion, looking at a photo and extrapolating from that a guy's whole demeanor and attitude towards his teammates is downright bush league. Show me a 5 second clip of the scene, where everyone else is excited and Portis looks downcast, and I'll think it might mean something. But a snapshot? Pffft. And if you look closely, he does appear to be clapping. His eyes just happen to be looking downward at the instant the photo was taken.

There's a whole video of it in the last game thread, and its way, way worse than the snapshot. He looks downright disappointed that Markkanen made it.

Couple it with all the reports and everything else we know, and I no longer have any doubt that Portis is a cancerous bum and needs to go as soon as we find a sucker who will take him. Bobby 'bout Bobby.

[Dresden]

In my opinion, looking at a photo and extrapolating from that a guy's whole demeanor and attitude towards his teammates is downright bush league. Show me a 5 second clip of the scene, where everyone else is excited and Portis looks downcast, and I'll think it might mean something. But a snapshot? Pffft. And if you look closely, he does appear to be clapping. His eyes just happen to be looking downward at the instant the photo was taken.

There's a whole video of it in the last game thread, and its way, way worse than the snapshot. He looks downright disappointed that Markkanen made it.

Couple it with all the reports and everything else we know, and I no longer have any doubt that Portis is a cancerous bum and needs to go as soon as we find a sucker who will take him. Bobby 'bout Bobby.

Then how come his teammates apparently almost universally supported him through the fight with Niko? If he's such a cancer, you'd think they'd all be taking Niko's side....

[DuckIII]

Ok, I agree, it's not a good look. I'm not going to crucify the guy for it though, or say that I can read into that that he is a selfish player who doesn't like when his teammates do well. You don't know what was going through his mind right at that moment. And I posted a similar clip after a Nwaba basket that shows Portis jumping off the bench to congratulate him.

I'm sure he's happy for teammates who don't threaten his playing time. But once the fight happened, Cowley's report came out that painted Bobby (and a few of his teammates) in an extremely immature and selfish light. Moreover, the day before the article came out, Kendall Gill was on TV talking about how Bobby felt the "power forward position was his." Add on the super-lame "apology" he offered after the fight, his selfish play on the court, and now him being visibly bummed when the young stud who took "his position" is having success, and its clear as day what Portis is about.

Trade him ASAP. Young rebuilding teams don't need his bull **** polluting the environment.

[DuckIII]

Then how come his teammates apparently almost universally supported him through the fight with Niko? If he's such a cancer, you'd think they'd all be taking Niko's side....

That was covered in the Cowley article. There's a faction of young players on the team that are entitlement minded and are sticking together, dating back to last season. Its been an ongoing issue. Moreover, Bobby can be a me-first selfish tool and Niko can also be an unlikable jerk. One doesn't negate the other.

[Dresden]

The Cowley article. Nuff said.

[ZOMG]

Then how come his teammates apparently almost universally supported him through the fight with Niko?

There is literally zero proof of this. What HAS been established is that there’s a small clique of players who seem to have sided with Bobby.

(Wow. Just writing about this crap leaves a bad taste in my mouth. We really need it to go away, fast. Preferably by getting rid of Bobby and Niko.)

[sco]

Yeah, I'm fine trading either or both of Niko or Bobby for picks - preferably late 1st rounders, but early 2nd's would be fine. I'm also fine keeping one of them next year as a back-up. Of the 2, I'd prefer to keep Bobby because he is younger and has a higher chance of becoming useful when we next want to compete. Also, I am intrigued to see if he can learn to play C (so far it's a "no"...defensively).

[theanimal23]

The Cowley article. Nuff said.

Which article? Link?

[Proven_Winner]

At this point does dunn have any competition for MIPTY? Dude is showing all he needed was time and now he’s starting to look more like the guy everyone expected him to be.

The other candidates are: Oladipo, Tobias Harris, Aaron Gordon, Brandon Ingram and Denver's Murray. That's a tough competition.

Great point forgot about those guys. One thing Dunn has in his favor over these guys is that most people gave up on him because of his “historically” bad rook is year. So him transforming from nobody to nba starter could get him the trophy if he keeps this up.

[Dresden]

Then how come his teammates apparently almost universally supported him through the fight with Niko?

There is literally zero proof of this. What HAS been established is that there’s a small clique of players who seem to have sided with Bobby.

(Wow. Just writing about this crap leaves a bad taste in my mouth. We really need it to go away, fast. Preferably by getting rid of Bobby and Niko.)

Zero proof except that it was reported in a major newspaper that Portis had the support of his teammates.

[Dominator83]

No that it's idiotic to write off players after a rookie season, have some f***ing patience and let players develop.

Hell, after his 1st year here, people on this board were using Jimmy Butler as a toss in on hypothetical trades

What a load of crap. Most people were worried about Drose knee. No one was trying to trade Jimmy as a damn throw in. I hate revisionist history.

Everyone wanted to move Luol because we wanted a guy who could handle the ball. People wanted to dump Ronnie for Jimmy could get his minutes.

Resisen was talking up his efficient and questioning jimmy creating ability.

Revisionist history? Jimmy at the time was a 2 PPG scrub. NOBODY thought he would ever develop into more than a role player at best. During that summer yes he was tossed in alot of hypothetical trades around here, but again because nobody though he was very good.

If anything, your the one playing revisionist history. You must be a real genius to have known back in 2012 that Jimmy Butler was going to be a stud. If we knew that, he either would've been mentioned in Howard trades as being the centerpiece straight up with fillers, or been deemed untouchable.

[Indomitable]

In my opinion, looking at a photo and extrapolating from that a guy's whole demeanor and attitude towards his teammates is downright bush league. Show me a 5 second clip of the scene, where everyone else is excited and Portis looks downcast, and I'll think it might mean something. But a snapshot? Pffft. And if you look closely, he does appear to be clapping. His eyes just happen to be looking downward at the instant the photo was taken.

There's a whole video of it in the last game thread, and its way, way worse than the snapshot. He looks downright disappointed that Markkanen made it.

Couple it with all the reports and everything else we know, and I no longer have any doubt that Portis is a cancerous bum and needs to go as soon as we find a sucker who will take him. Bobby 'bout Bobby.

Welcome to the club.

Bobby been an ass even in his first year. His first game he got some burn . He hit a couple of shots and starts to scream at the coach for not playing him.