Image ImageImage Image

Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri

Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, dougthonus, Tommy Udo 6 , DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, Payt10, RedBulls23, coldfish, fleet, AshyLarrysDiaper, kulaz3000, Michael Jackson

User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 68,918
And1: 33,607
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#21 » by DuckIII » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:25 pm

logical_art wrote:You're right. Never have negative opinions on a prospect because you might be wrong. Brilliant!

On the other hand, do have positive opinions on a prospect because even if you're wrong you can be lauded as a good optimistic fan.


That’s not the point. He’s saying one way or another it makes more sense to wait and see what happens.

That said, if we’d have traded up for Porter I would have completely lost my ****. And my posts the night of drafting Taj were written in blood.

Nonetheless, OP is right.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
logical_art
RealGM
Posts: 11,095
And1: 3,671
Joined: May 14, 2001

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#22 » by logical_art » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:29 pm

Right. The OP is saying lets not spend any time pre draft or post draft evaluating it and instead wait 3 years until the jury is out. Come on, that's not realistic at all.

But I don't see these kinds of posts in responses to positive reactions, so the point doesn't seem to be truth but rather optimism. If the initial reaction is bad, lets just wait and see. If its good, well then yay lets all be fans!
User avatar
kulaz3000
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 41,829
And1: 23,820
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#23 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:39 pm

logical_art wrote:Right. The OP is saying lets not spend any time pre draft or post draft evaluating it and instead wait 3 years until the jury is out. Come on, that's not realistic at all.


That's not what I said at all. And it's odd that you would throw a random 3 years out of nowhere.

I suggest you re-read what I said, and attempt to understand my intention for this thread was, again.

You're more than welcome to disagree, but lets not argue against things I simply didn't say.
Why so serious?
FecesOfDeath
Head Coach
Posts: 6,090
And1: 1,675
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
       

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#24 » by FecesOfDeath » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:55 pm

They had Rose (torn ACL and UCL). They just acquired Lavine (torn ACL). And many here still wanted them to draft DSJ (torn ACL)?!

Lauri was a better pick then and is still a better pick now.
thxfrthmmrs
Sophomore
Posts: 206
And1: 70
Joined: Jul 07, 2011
     

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#25 » by thxfrthmmrs » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:55 pm

DxC17 wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:Honestly I still wouldn't want him. I don't even think Carter is a bad prospect but I don't want him either.

I hate the makeup/composition of this team that having those guys basically forces you to have. I'm over the idea of spending a lot on big men unless they're some generational talent.


Still wouldn't want Lauri?

Stop it. There isn't a single GM in the NBA that wouldn't give up the farm for Lauri.

Do you have any idea how often 7"0 pure shooters come through this league. There's like 2 in history.



Leslie Forman wrote:
DxC17 wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:Honestly I still wouldn't want him. I don't even think Carter is a bad prospect but I don't want him either.

I hate the makeup/composition of this team that having those guys basically forces you to have. I'm over the idea of spending a lot on big men unless they're some generational talent.


Still wouldn't want Lauri?

Stop it. There isn't a single GM in the NBA that wouldn't give up the farm for Lauri.

Do you have any idea how often 7"0 pure shooters come through this league. There's like 2 in history.

Which is why I would have looked into trading him, especially if I knew Carter was going to end up here. His value is probably at or near his peak right now IMO.

"7" pure shooter" doesn't mean anything.

When you are trying to construct a title winning team under a salary cap/luxury tax, you have to be super picky about who you're spending 20-35% of the cap on. Bigs who are anything less than a two-way stud or all-time great are not worth it.


Completely agree with this. I have mentioned over and over again that I like Lauri, but I think he's more likely to be a good player than to be a star or superstar (I have given many reasons why in the Would you trade Lauri for anyone thread). I wish people would stop using the 7 footer argument. At the end of the day Lauri a shooter, being 7 foot is relevant if it doesn't help you shoot better, rebound or block shots.

I also think we picked WCJ because he was the safest pick available. My plan A would have been to get Doncic by using our space (Dunn, Portis, #7, #22, TPE and cap space). If price is too steep (which it wasn't really), I would have traded back (acquire more assets) instead of making the safest pick. Bulls ended up doing what they always do which is making the safe pick. The reasoning against making the safe pick is simple. Our 2 best players now are two bigs, in a small ball positionless player era. I am pretty confident that one or two of Sexton, SGA, Zhaire smith, and Walker IV will turn out to be better pros than WCJ. We're in year 2 of rebuild, we should be making risky picks instead of safe ones. If those players bomb, we're likely to be back in the top 5 next year, along with the future asset you acquired by trading down. If they do pan out, you will likely to have an all star caliber perimeter player you desperately need.

I don't think WCJ is a bad pick, he will be a fine player in isolation, but he shouldn't be the type of player we're targeting. I would have been much happier had we gotten the prospect of Smith and a completely unprotected 2021 first round pick instead of WCJ.
User avatar
RSP83
Head Coach
Posts: 6,763
And1: 3,918
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
 

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#26 » by RSP83 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:35 pm

I wasn't a fan of Lauri, watched some of his college games, was really meh about him. Didn't see anything special other than he's tall and can shoot, although I was surprised that he's a pretty strong finisher at the rim, the traits that end up translates in the NBA for him.

DSJ was my guy, so of course I wasn't very happy about the pick. But my opinion change 180 degree after I watched him play in the Eurobasket, I became a fan almost instantly. That Eurobasket really paints a good picture of what kind of ceiling he has, and I think it's about as high if not higher than his peers in that draft class. So yeah I was wrong about Lauri, but I'm typically not the type that immediately condemn a pick that I don't like, it just that DSJ was also a legit lottery talent which I happened to like more than Lauri at that point. If I have to re-do the 2017 NBA draft and I get to pick no. 1 overall, I would pick Lauri. Yes, over Tatum and Mitchell, even my guy DSJ.

I'm actually pretty cool with the Carter pick, I thought we get BPA at that spot. Can't be mad with not going home with Doncic or JJJ, when we didn't have the chance. Although I would do the bold move of trading up to get 4 and take on Parsons contract for JJJ.

I think the guy that would've made very unhappy if we draft him is Trae Young, he's my least favorite top 10 prospect in this year's draft. WCJ is far from my worst nightmare. My draft plan this year was 1. Doncic, 2. JJJ, 3. anybody among the top 10 not named Trae Young. I'm glad we went with WCJ instead of Mikal Bridges. I would've been ok with Porter, but looking back I'm glad we didn't pick him looking at how far he fell. I'm 50-50 on Knox. My irrational homer pick at 7 is Miles Bridges, I love his talent, but I know a lot of people will bash the pick if we use it on him.
waffle
RealGM
Posts: 11,136
And1: 1,661
Joined: Jun 07, 2002
Location: Don't question the finger and do respect the black box. That is all.....

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#27 » by waffle » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:50 pm

how do you get to that thread?
sco
RealGM
Posts: 23,636
And1: 7,649
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#28 » by sco » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:53 pm

I remember thinking that Lauri was just a 7 foot McDermott. Thing is, that if McDermott was actually 7 feet, he'd be darn special too. I was reminded that size matters in the NBA - that's why a 6'10 player going against 7'1 guys just doesn't excite me.
:clap:
User avatar
GrowingHorns
Rookie
Posts: 1,136
And1: 612
Joined: Sep 05, 2017

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#29 » by GrowingHorns » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:00 pm

I read that Lauri-thread somewhere in the middle of the season, it was hilarious. I'm trusting WCJ is gonna be a good player. i don't know much about him, but they picked him, he looks and sounds stable and focused. One thing I'd hope he do is to grow really strong and bushy sideburns and mustache to go alongside with Lauri hopefully growing longer hair again. Please, make it happen, give me 70's Disco Bulls!
kodo
RealGM
Posts: 18,609
And1: 13,263
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Location: Northshore Burbs

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#30 » by kodo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:16 pm

I liked Lauri more than most...

So, he's the next Bargnani ?

I'm not a fan of what we got for Jimmy, but Markannen is no Bargnani, who was just a bad 7' center who could rarely knock down a wide open jump shot.

Bargnani's shooting was overly discussed, over his career he never averaged more than one 3 per game. He mainly played like a normal, mediocre center, mostly scoring in the paint.

Markannen is most definitely a talented, legit shooter who is more than comfortable on perimeter and not only shoots, but attacks the close out, can pull up, and hit floaters.


...but I'm not a fan of this pick for the exact reasons I liked the Markkanen pick.

Markkanen was a legit, high volume talented shooter. He was 7' but scouts all called him the best shooter in the entire draft. He wasn't just a standstill, wide open set shot shooter he had the entire game of a perimeter player. Attacking closeouts, floaters, pull-ups, etc..

Wendell is a classic, old school, true back to the basket Center with none of that...at least in what he showed at Duke.

If this is a comparison to Markkanen as a prospect...Carter is the opposite of Markkanen.

My hope is that Coach K neutered all his true talent and forced him to be a garbage man at Duke and he has a ton to offer he never got to show in college. This happens often enough, and Wendell said he has a lot more to show than he had at Duke.

I will say I think he'll be effective right away...some of theses guys like Bamba/Porter or long term gambles.
cool007
RealGM
Posts: 17,806
And1: 3,104
Joined: Feb 03, 2005

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#31 » by cool007 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:26 pm

This is why you have to give these guys a chance on the court. Some are great in the NCAA but not so good in the NBA (Okafor, morrison etc) while others don't look great in the NCAA but are great in the NBA (Mitchell, Markkanen, etc).

If you ask me, I think Carter and Hutchinson will be really good in the NBA. Both have good size for their spot and play at both ends of the floor and don't have any liabilities. Yes they can improve on many areas but noway they are busts.
HoopsterJones
RealGM
Posts: 16,140
And1: 13,363
Joined: Feb 22, 2014

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#32 » by HoopsterJones » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:31 pm

I’m not calling Carter a bust yet. I’m guilty of wanting a higher ceiling type player like Bamba or Doncic. The Bulls could have made a bold move if they wanted to risk it. The FO bold move was to trade up to get Dougie and we all know how that turned out.
2023-2024 Bulls Prediction:

Regular Season: 40-42
0 All Stars:
bad knees
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,836
And1: 2,805
Joined: Jul 09, 2009

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#33 » by bad knees » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:34 pm

I remember describing Lauri, LaVine and Dunn as "a PF that can't defend, a SG who won't defend, and a PG who can't score." I was wrong on Lauri. The jury is still out on Dunn, although he did show flashes last year that I did not anticipate. Unfortunately, I think I was right on LaVine. Even worse, being the "centerpiece" of the trade apparently meant to him that he should shoot whenever possible. So I may have been a little light on my negative evaluation of him. Well, let's see what another year will show.
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 64,633
And1: 32,397
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
 

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#34 » by fleet » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:29 pm

Role player with defensive challenges was my take, but I didnt know much about him. He clearly has a 3 dimensional upside that was not very apparent at the time to me, or to even some people in the biz. But have fun with it
Brad Biggs wrote:Fields was in the bottom third of the league in too many key statistical metrics for the Bears to commit to the idea of trading down from the first pick for a bundle of future assets and then building around him.
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 64,633
And1: 32,397
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
 

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#35 » by fleet » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:34 pm

DuckIII wrote:
logical_art wrote:You're right. Never have negative opinions on a prospect because you might be wrong. Brilliant!

On the other hand, do have positive opinions on a prospect because even if you're wrong you can be lauded as a good optimistic fan.


That’s not the point. He’s saying one way or another it makes more sense to wait and see what happens.

That said, if we’d have traded up for Porter I would have completely lost my ****. And my posts the night of drafting Taj were written in blood

Nonetheless, OP is right.

I don't believe OP is right. OP is over simplifying the (minority) hate on Carter. If simple evaluation of WCJ as a prospect was the only issue at play, then yeah. But there are clearly contextual issues coloring this evaluation that are ignored in OP. Most people tend to like WCJ as I do. Which is incidental to context of this year's draft evaluation.
Brad Biggs wrote:Fields was in the bottom third of the league in too many key statistical metrics for the Bears to commit to the idea of trading down from the first pick for a bundle of future assets and then building around him.
User avatar
Trm3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,379
And1: 772
Joined: Jul 15, 2010
Location: The Desert..
       

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#36 » by Trm3 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 pm

I knew of Wendall Carter being a Carolina fan but don't know of Hutchison but the NBA TV crew loved our picks and really liked what we're building..so, I'm gonna go with them.

Then again, they pretty much said every team was going to the Finals after every pick was made.
thewraith
Junior
Posts: 363
And1: 109
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
         

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#37 » by thewraith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:43 pm

nomorezorro wrote:lauri was definitely a more exciting prospect to me than carter is, but i think the general point is instructive. it's silly to write off a 19 year old who most people have probably watched play for fewer than 100 minutes

the thing i'm using to reassure myself is that the three teams drafting ahead of us reportedly all gave consideration to drafting carter at one point, so it's not like we were saddled with a dude nobody was interested in. scouts definitely seem more excited about the guy than the general public does.
I disagree that the general point is instructive. If Lauri is a bust up until now do we get this thread? How about the times the "complaining" posters were right? Do we get this thread? We both know the answer so that's why I can't put too much stock into it either way. People vent about things they don't like and sometimes they are wrong. This isn't the first time and won't be the last that's why I don't get the gotcha stuff unless its a particular poster/person acting like they never said what they said. That's the only time I personally have a problem with someone venting. I didn't want Carter I wanted Young but now that Carter is here I'm waiting to see what he will do.
patagonia
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,804
And1: 2,032
Joined: Feb 17, 2010

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#38 » by patagonia » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:12 am

Some real terrible hot takes in that thread. meanwhile ...

patagonia » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:25 pm

This guy can shoot. 43% in college on high volume. A 7 footer with a quick release - he won't be getting stuffed liked mcbuckets.


patagonia » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:26 pm

TheStig wrote:
Great! We got the PF version of Doug McD!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Doug got a lot of his points posting up smaller guys in an crap conference. This guy is a legit shooter


patagonia » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:11 pm

HoopsterJones wrote:
We got a 7 foot Doug McDermott.


Markkanen can shoot. Doug bullied smaller guys in the post and that was never going to work in the NBA.
SensiBull
Starter
Posts: 2,385
And1: 326
Joined: Jul 14, 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, Australia

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#39 » by SensiBull » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:34 am

kulaz3000 wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
DxC17 wrote:
Still wouldn't want Lauri?

Stop it. There isn't a single GM in the NBA that wouldn't give up the farm for Lauri.

Do you have any idea how often 7"0 pure shooters come through this league. There's like 2 in history.

Which is why I would have looked into trading him, especially if I knew Carter was going to end up here. His value is probably at or near his peak right now IMO.

"7" pure shooter" doesn't mean anything.

When you are trying to construct a title winning team under a salary cap/luxury tax, you have to be super picky about who you're spending 20-35% of the cap on. Bigs who are anything less than a two-way stud or all-time great are not worth it.


So you wouldn't have wanted Ayton, Bagley, Bamba or JJJ?


I would only have wanted Bamba or JJJ, not Bagley or Ayton.

Markkanen is not a 5 or a rim protector, and, until he grows into his frame, JJJ isn't exactly a 5 either.

I can't see either one, neither Markkanen nor JJJ, banging in the paint with the likes of Kevin Love, Andre Drummond, Myles Turner, Domantas Sabonis, Jonas Valanciunas, Enes Kanter, Joel Embiid, Marcin Gortat, Kelly Olynyk, Hassan Whiteside or Nikola Vucevic 4 games per season each, not to mention games against Boogie Cousins, Steven Adams, DeAndre Jordan and others out west.

I can remember already physically imposing players like Kevin Love, Blake Griffin and Anthony Davis, being happy to return to playing Power Forward because playing Center had them so banged up until they got someone with the physicality for the demands of the position to free them up.

All Wendell Carter needs to do is be an upgrade from Robin Lopez and Cristiano Felicio to have been worth the pick. He might be a little on the narrow side at the moment, but, he actually trimmed down from his normal playing weight to help his draft stock.

Carter, Jr. was shooting from the outside at 6'10", 260 lbs. of chub, not muscle. His fitness will be the main issue. We don't want another Eddy Curry on our hands, but he strikes me as much smarter and more professional than that.

I like the pick.

Bamba and JJJ have the defence, but not the shooting. Bagley and Ayton would have to improve their defence and outside shooting to catch up with Carter, Jr.

Carter has all of that as well as the frame to carry the girth needed to play the 5 against some of the aforementioned players.

"Well then why didn't anyone have WCJ ahead of those 4 on their mock drafts?"

A. Some did. Within the past week, I started seeing WCJ as high as 4 to Memphis from people who, despite getting that wrong, got a lot of other stuff around it right.

https://www.thestepien.com/2018-draft-rankings/

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/my-2018-mock-draft-100

B. The Bulls are in a different circumstance than some of the teams ahead of them. When interviewed after the press conference, the way Forman and Paxson framed it was that the Jimmy Butler trade was the first step of the rebuild, which yielded 3 starters, and that they feel that this year's draft was a continuation of that process.

They never called Hutchison or Carter out as starters. They emphasised that everyone still has to earn their way off the bench.

However, as compared to a team that is practically starting from scratch, like Memphis (who are in denial about the age and health of their core), or Orlando (who has no guard play to speak of and a log-jam of duds in the frontcourt), those teams need to make a big splash with a single, big-named player. Fit is not a concern.

The unavailability of a trade to move up forced the Bulls not to over-think it.

The player who fit the best is the one who landed in their laps. I'm not going to run that whole "they got the player they wanted all along" line. I think if they could have gotten a bigger name, or a sexier name, they would have.

I just think the universe conspired to force them to make what was actually the most fitting choice, even if it doesn't give the fan base a hard-on quite yet.
http://www.un.org/en/peace/

"While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them ..., and they will not escape." - 1 Thess 5:2-3
WestsideResider
Head Coach
Posts: 6,780
And1: 3,092
Joined: Jun 13, 2009
Location: Pulling the strings
 

Re: Let's go back in time when we drafted Lauri 

Post#40 » by WestsideResider » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:14 am

I"d like this pick and trade more if we didn't have Hoiberg at the helm

For the record, I still feel this way
I'm not here to argue.

Return to Chicago Bulls