Zach Lavine thread 3.0

[Repeat 3-peat]

All the chickens have come to roost now where the doubters now even when mark comes back Zack will be the alpha scorer on this team.

Zach has becoming less efficient lately. I do worry about that I think Lauri should be made the number one option still. But won't be for this season at least.

Because teams are doing everything they can to stop him from scoring and he takes questionable shots in the clutch. Once we get our players back and teams can't stack the paint he will virtually unstoppable. I'm not sure Lauri will ever the #1 option because I don't ever see him able to create for himself like LaVine. Think 1a/1b. Lauri will literally have to be Dirk 2.0 and average 25 ppg himself because I don't see LaVine's scoring going down much even with less usage.

His efficiency his down a bit, but I'm more impressed with stat lines recently. Instead of 30/3/3 the stat sheet getting filled up. 25 ppg 5 rbs and 5 asts and 1.5 stls is what I want from him now.

Reported.

Spoiler:

[NDave79]

Personally, I feel like Zach is improving at an incredible rate.

4 basketball seasons ago (not counting the year he lost) he put up (current stats in parenthesis)

PTS - 9.4 (27.1)
TRB - 2.5 (5.2)
AST - 2.1 (4.0)

with a PER of 14.6 (19.4) at UCLA

I'm just using raw stats as I think it's reflective of how much the coach wants him on the court.

Statistically, he is one of the worst first round prospects I can find.

He wasn't really even a good college player when he got drafted. He came into the NBA as raw as they come and was pure upside. If the Wolves had any hopes of winning, they probably shouldn't even have been playing him much his first couple years. I bet if the Bulls had drafted him instead, Thibs would have had him parked on the bench his first couple years

Then, his first year and a half the Wolves experiment with him playing PG. Then Thib's uses him in more of an off ball role. Now, he is playing sort of like a Kobe role stylistically. Honestly, I think it's a credit to his talent that coaches have tried him in such different roles.

He has had 4 different coaches so far in his career meaning 4 different defensive and offensive systems.

I guess what I'm saying is that considering how raw Zach was coming into the league and how volatile the roles he has played and systems he has needed to learn (imagine if he had just spent the last 4 years with Pop learning the same offensive and defensive system every day since he had been drafted while learning one primary role (as opposed to something like Westbrook, then Ray Allen, then Kobe stylistically in a very general way), I'm super impressed with where he is at this point and excited what he can become.

[dice]

Zach has becoming less efficient lately. I do worry about that I think Lauri should be made the number one option still. But won't be for this season at least.

Because teams are doing everything they can to stop him from scoring and he takes questionable shots in the clutch. Once we get our players back and teams can't stack the paint he will virtually unstoppable. I'm not sure Lauri will ever the #1 option because I don't ever see him able to create for himself like LaVine. Think 1a/1b. Lauri will literally have to be Dirk 2.0 and average 25 ppg himself because I don't see LaVine's scoring going down much even with less usage.

His efficiency his down a bit, but I'm more impressed with stat lines recently. Instead of 30/3/3 the stat sheet getting filled up. 25 ppg 5 rbs and 5 asts and 1.5 stls is what I want from him now.

Reported.

Spoiler:

why in the world would you ASSUME that lauri will ever a) get more shots than lavine or b) be the first choice with the game on the line?

[sky4it]

Whatever you have to tell yourself to minimize getting raped in the Butler trade and setting your franchise back 5 years. You would trade Wiggins for LaVine in heartbeat. Add Lauri on top that and it must be sickening as a Minnesota fan. But hey you got two role players for Butler. Enjoy!!

I am just trying to help you guys really. Lavine is a streaky shooter. Hes great as a three point shooter coming off the bench. but if your expecting him to give you a lot of wins I think you will be disappointed. Dreadful defense, and he does make a lot of bad decisions.

Butler here was disappointing. yeah u guys got the better of the trade because of Lauri. Wiggins has been disappointing as well.

Me personally, I wouldnt trade wiggins for lavine. but your right, wiggins has been disappointing. Wiggi got a lot fewer touches with the ball when Butler was here, I am hoping we will see some better offense out of Wigg with butler gone. If Wigg doesnt turn it around because he got that big contract, its going to get bleak here.

To the other guy, yeah it was rare where he didnt make one 3 pointer, but overall here it was a roller coaster. A few great games followed by some stinkers, on offense.

He isn't having stinkers this season. Even when he is shooting poorly like last night he got the line 11 times. Turnovers need to go down, but overall he is much improved. Dude is averaging 27/5/5 at 23 years old. We'll be fine with him. Don't need your warnings.

You are in a tiny minority that wouldn't trade Wiggins for LaVine. He makes almost twice as much money and is worse player with questionable work ethic.

Sorry abt that man, i wasnt trolling or trying to be disruptive. I mean i wish you guys well with him, I just used to get so frustrated watching him, maybe he is improving.

I probably am in the tiny majority, its just the crap with him the nagging turnovers but good luck

[kulaz3000]

I'm honestly not too concerned with Zach's turnovers, because it's a result of him being in a position to do a lot more than he normally would be asked to do. But the fact that he has been willing to accept the challenge and accept the challenge has be commendable.

I also find promise that a lot of the turnovers aren't due to the fact that he is a selfish player, in fact, I've noticed quite the opposite, he can be extremely unselfish at times to a fault but he simply makes sloppy decisions or attempts really difficult passes that should never be made. His turnovers seem to be more due to his lack of basketball IQ and just experience as the main focal point on the offense, and also attempting to create offense for the rest of the team.

I believe with more offensive weapons on the floor with him, a more capable point guard, where his role would be predominately to score, and on the odd occasions to play make for others, he would be able to produce at an optimal level and his turnovers would level off to average at around 2 a game, which would be respectful for a high scoring guard.

[AKfanatic]

Zach has shown a lot of improvement this season and a willingness to defend, that alone is a reason to be optimistic.

Another reason to be optimistic, he’s only 23...or, the age 2nd year Jimmy was....

[Just_Bullz]

He has yet to enter his prime and is producing at a level most 23 year olds can ever dream of.

We are lacking 4 players in Lauri, Dunn, Portis and Denzel. Give him some breathing space, put the naysayers in his shoes and probably all will crack under the pressure.

[Michael Jackson]

Hard to read how good he is. Every team is game planning for him now which is new to him and honestly he isn’t really a number 1. He is improved though and will be interesting how he looks at the ASB.

[Jcool0]

Hard to read how good he is. Every team is game planning for him now which is new to him and honestly he isn’t really a number 1. He is improved though and will be interesting how he looks at the ASB.

Looks like a #1 to me

Read on Twitter

[contestedlayups]

I'm honestly not too concerned with Zach's turnovers, because it's a result of him being in a position to do a lot more than he normally would be asked to do. But the fact that he has been willing to accept the challenge and accept the challenge has be commendable.

I also find promise that a lot of the turnovers aren't due to the fact that he is a selfish player, in fact, I've noticed quite the opposite, he can be extremely unselfish at times to a fault but he simply makes sloppy decisions or attempts really difficult passes that should never be made. His turnovers seem to be more due to his lack of basketball IQ and just experience as the main focal point on the offense, and also attempting to create offense for the rest of the team.

I believe with more offensive weapons on the floor with him, a more capable point guard, where his role would be predominately to score, and on the odd occasions to play make for others, he would be able to produce at an optimal level and his turnovers would level off to average at around 2 a game, which would be respectful for a high scoring guard.

Accept the challenge and ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE!?! oops!

Lavine has thrived in this role and he will continue to be the lead dog as the season progresses. The entire team knows who to go to right now to get a needed bucket. Once teams stop keying on him and need to key on Markkanen and Portis, driving lanes will be wide open. It will be a sight to behold, I really think, and he could see his FTA's go up even more than they are already at. December needs to get here without too many losses, and the Bulls will be in awesome shape to make a second half run in a pretty weak Eastern Conference. I mean, Cleveland blew out Charlotte tonight!

[NecessaryEvil]

I'm honestly not too concerned with Zach's turnovers, because it's a result of him being in a position to do a lot more than he normally would be asked to do. But the fact that he has been willing to accept the challenge and accept the challenge has be commendable.

I also find promise that a lot of the turnovers aren't due to the fact that he is a selfish player, in fact, I've noticed quite the opposite, he can be extremely unselfish at times to a fault but he simply makes sloppy decisions or attempts really difficult passes that should never be made. His turnovers seem to be more due to his lack of basketball IQ and just experience as the main focal point on the offense, and also attempting to create offense for the rest of the team.

I believe with more offensive weapons on the floor with him, a more capable point guard, where his role would be predominately to score, and on the odd occasions to play make for others, he would be able to produce at an optimal level and his turnovers would level off to average at around 2 a game, which would be respectful for a high scoring guard.

Accept the challenge and ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE!?! oops!

Lavine has thrived in this role and he will continue to be the lead dog as the season progresses. The entire team knows who to go to right now to get a needed bucket. Once teams stop keying on him and need to key on Markkanen and Portis, driving lanes will be wide open. It will be a sight to behold, I really think, and he could see his FTA's go up even more than they are already at. December needs to get here without too many losses, and the Bulls will be in awesome shape to make a second half run in a pretty weak Eastern Conference. I mean, Cleveland blew out Charlotte tonight!

second half run for what?

[johnnyvann840]

Lumping this season’s data into LaVine’s total career, which is so contextually different, makes this entire discussion very...weird.

Are we really going to sit here and say the Bulls are better with LaVine off the floor?

Are we really going to say that the Bulls’ offense rating when LaVine sits would carry over to all the minutes he plays if you simply benched him?

As I said I like advanced stats and use them often but in the case they’re being widely misused, either against his previous four seasons or making decisions on his worth this season.

Forgive me Johnny, but I can’t help but to question the root source of this position you’re taking. You’ve been very vocal about how bad LaVine has been in the past, so I’m not entirely surprised you’ve taken this angle now.

When the injured guys return and the Bulls are playing well and he’s still a -10, then these numbers will mean something. Until then, I don’t give a **** if the Bulls are a negative with him off the floor, and I sure as **** do not buy anything that suggests LaVine off the floor and replaced with Blakeney or Hutchison at SG for the 40 minutes a night he plays makes this team better.

It doesn’t.

You posted this in the thread that was locked, so I'll just respond here.

ONCE AGAIN, what I'm saying is that so far this season, Lavine has very similar impact numbers to the previous four years of his career Four seasons. Not one. Not two... FOUR. Whether you, or anyone else feels that it's not relevant doesn't matter. The facts are the facts.

All I'm saying it's that it's alarming that his on/off is this horrible considering the Bulls have so many players out and the replacement level guys that are subbing in for him are not that good. It makes it even worse, IMO. He started this season off on FIRE. His FG%, his TS%, his PER, everything has dropped like a rock.

In Zach's first 6 games, his FG% was over .500 (.510), he shot .380 from 3 pt., his TS% was something like .700. Fantastic.

His last 6 games guess what he's done? He's shooting .376 from the field. He's shooting .256 from 3 pt. His TS% is .498. His 41 pt outburst, high efficiency, high volume, 14 FTA game is INCLUDED in these numbers for the last 6 games and they are still combined to be what they are above. Not good at all.

So, he's had a run here in November so far where he has dropped like a rock. It's not a game, or two games, it's SIX GAMES.

YES, it matters. All of his stats for the season have gravitated to be right near his career numbers, with higher volume so his PPG are up significantly.

His impact is eerily similar to what he's done for the 6600+ previous minutes of his career. Sure it's only 510 minutes and he is being focused on heavily by the opposing defense. All that attention should be good for the rest of the team. Leave any NBA player WIDE OPEN and he should be able to make a layup of a wide open J. IF he gets the ball.

I'm not saying that he can't turn things back around. He can. I'm not saying that we need to trade him this week. I AM saying that if this continues for the next couple of months that we need to explore options. Trade options. Sell high options. I'm pretty sure he is going to maintain a very high PPG. His raw counting stats should all remain high, especially if he continues to get to the line at a high rate.

Here's what concerns me the most. Everybody keeps saying how when Dunn and Lauri come back, everything is just going to be great. The problem is that Zach and Dunn have a history together and they have not been good together. In fact, their chemistry on the basketball floor has been like oil and water. Add Lauri to the mix and it was even worse. Maybe things will be different this season. Maybe it won't. We need to be prepared for either situation because if Dunn and Zach and Lauri don't play well together when those guys get back then we definitely have a problem.

I don't know what is going to happen and neither does anybody else here. What I do know is that Lavine has been pretty bad over the last six games which is over 240 minutes of NBA basketball. He wasn't even getting to the line that much for 5 of the last 7 games. Last night he did get to the line a lot, but he was overall horrible in that game.

Bottom line, for whatever reason, the fact are that the Bulls overall this season have been better without Zach on the floor. IN FACT, they have a positive point differential with him on the bench. Whether it's because of garbage time, or whether it's because of the opposition not fielding good bench units against us... whether it's because of Zach's teammates, I don't know. It's just the way the numbers are right now. He is a net negative -10.2. I hope this changes for the better. IT HAS TO. If it doesn't, the Bulls have a big problem. An $80M problem that needs to be dealt with.

People on this board can flame me all they want. They can come up with every reason. Just take a look at the last six games and tell me that we can accept that play from Lavine long term.. whether he is being the focal point of defenses or not. Whether his teammates suck so bad that it is affecting Lavine's numbers o much that he is a sub .390 shooter from the field and a sub .260 shooter from 3 pt. and he carries a TS% of .498. He needs to start finding these teammates if he's being constantly double or triple teamed. That is what stars do. That is what the best players do when they are focused on defensively. They find WIDE OPEN teammates. Because ANY NBA player can make a wide open layup or a wide open mid range J and there are plenty who can hit WIDE OPEN 3 pt. shots. They just need to get the ball when they are open. That is Zach's job. He also needs to stop turning the ball over, especially in crunch time, late in games and when he drives to the basket. The Bulls as a team turn the ball over 4 times less per 100 without Zach. That is a lot of possessions and add up to a lot of points.

I wanted to eat crow about Lavine. I was ready to. Then just as I was about to take a bite, Zach came by and yanked the bird from my jaws. I want to eat that crow for the Bulls sake I do. He has been ass for the month of November other than his 41 pt game... because even with that monster game in the numbers for the last six games, his numbers are still horrible. Beyond horrible. That has to change. People can come up with every excuse in the World for it, but I don't care, it still has to change. I don't want excuses, I want to win games. I want results.

[johnnyvann840]

Hard to read how good he is. Every team is game planning for him now which is new to him and honestly he isn’t really a number 1. He is improved though and will be interesting how he looks at the ASB.

Looks like a #1 to me

Read on Twitter

I can guarantee you Jordan never shot .376/.256 with a .498 TS% for the last six games of those streaks. I can guarantee you he wasn't net negative -10.2 on the season after those streaks. I can guarantee you his teams weren't turning the ball over 4 times less per 100 without him on the floor. If anything is meaningless it's that comparison right there.

[Jcool0]

Hard to read how good he is. Every team is game planning for him now which is new to him and honestly he isn’t really a number 1. He is improved though and will be interesting how he looks at the ASB.

Looks like a #1 to me

Read on Twitter

I can guarantee you Jordan never shot .376/.256 with a .498 TS% for the last six games of those streaks. I can guarantee you he wasn't net negative -10.2 on the season after those streaks. I can guarantee you his teams weren't turning the ball over 4 times less per 100 without him on the floor. If anything is meaningless it's that comparison right there.

I can guarantee you i was not making any comparison to Michael Jordan. And if you need the #1 option to be Michael Jordan you are never going to be satisfied.

[johnnyvann840]

Looks like a #1 to me

Read on Twitter

I can guarantee you Jordan never shot .376/.256 with a .498 TS% for the last six games of those streaks. I can guarantee you he wasn't net negative -10.2 on the season after those streaks. I can guarantee you his teams weren't turning the ball over 4 times less per 100 without him on the floor. If anything is meaningless it's that comparison right there.

I can guarantee you i was not making any comparison to Michael Jordan. And if you need the #1 option to be Michael Jordan you are never going to be satisfied.

Just saying... and I know nobody wants to hear this and everyone thinks I'm just slamming Lavine for no reason, but I'm not. I'm just pointing out how much things have gone downhill after a terrific 8 game start to the season for him...

So far, it's just not a November to remember.... October was phenomenal though other than impact. But, for the six games of November his PER has dropped over 10 points, his FG% has dropped .140+ % pts.. his TS% has dropped about 1.00% points. Remarkably, he's been much better from a RPM, on/off and +/- standpoint in November, so maybe there is hope.... Oddly his +/- for November is quite a bit better than it was in October. He is almost net neutral for November despite the extreme drop in efficiency.



And I'm only posted this because all I've heard today is how on/off and +/- are meaningless for this season. And I agree for the most part, but it's not just that. It's everything except his raw counting stats which have been volume driven. But these kind of shooting %'s need to improve as does his decision making, TOV% of the team with him and his own TO's. All that needs to change for the better. Not just his on/off and +/- and scoreboard related impact numbers. Everything.

[waffle]

I think Zach could be a very productive 2nd option. I think having Dunn around will help with the turnovers (less need for him to be a playmaker) and playing with Lauri will help as he should be more room to drive, which frankly I think is his greatest strength. He is REALLY elusive when given room to operate.

He has some elite level talents that I think can be utilized effectively. I think having the rest of the A Team around may produce that very result.

[bearadonisdna]

Honestly, beyond just stats, its subjective but i think zach’s leadership qualities are underrated.
If his efficiency drops off trying to fight for wins, then im not overally concerned.

Its almost like its commendable for a captain to go down with his ship, at the end of a playoff run you dont want your superstar to have a lot of clips left in a chamber in a loss.

As a whole, it would be nice for zach to get his efg% over .500 its currently at .498.
He is scoring 27 ppg with a high free throw rate.
As far as developing a number 1 option, he may be the best ‘scoring prospect’ since Jordan.

[johnnyvann840]

I think Zach could be a very productive 2nd option. I think having Dunn around will help with the turnovers (less need for him to be a playmaker) and playing with Lauri will help as he should be more room to drive, which frankly I think is his greatest strength. He is REALLY elusive when given room to operate.

He has some elite level talents that I think can be utilized effectively. I think having the rest of the A Team around may produce that very result.

I agree. When he drives, he is almost unstoppable. He either scores, or gets to the line.... or turns it over. If he can stop losing the ball on his way to the basket, it would make a huge difference. Remember when Rose used to do that a lot and then he started cradling the ball like a running back. I remember Derrick talking about how he worked on that during one offseason prior to his MVP campaign. Said it was hard to get used to getting the ball back out of that grip and into scoring position. When you are doubled and tripled, you need to really focus on keeping the ball away from prying hands.

I think it will definitely help if we have more scorers on the floor and Zach can play more off the ball and get the ball when in motion to the basket instead of having to do it all himself from the perimeter.

[Jcool0]

Just saying... and I know nobody wants to hear this and everyone thinks I'm just slamming Lavine for no reason, but I'm not. I'm just pointing out how much things have gone downhill after a terrific 8 game start to the season for him...

So far, it's just not a November to remember.... October was phenomenal though other than impact. But, for the six games of November his PER has dropped over 10 points, his FG% has dropped .140+ % pts.. his TS% has dropped about 1.00% points. Remarkably, he's been much better from a RPM, on/off and +/- standpoint in November, so maybe there is hope.... Oddly his +/- for November is quite a bit better than it was in October. He is almost net neutral for November despite the extreme drop in efficiency.



And I'm only posted this because all I've heard today is how on/off and +/- are meaningless for this season. And I agree for the most part, but it's not just that. It's everything except his raw counting stats which have been volume driven. But these kind of shooting %'s need to improve as does his decision making, TOV% of the team with him and his own TO's. All that needs to change for the better. Not just his on/off and +/- and scoreboard related impact numbers. Everything.

No you are posting this so you can say "i told you so". Every board has that guy who has to be the negative and always take the opposite of the majority. He could be playing as well as the first few games and you would be harping on his defensive numbers and whatever else would help prove he is overrated.

[johnnyvann840]

Honestly, beyond just stats, its subjective but i think zach’s leadership qualities are underrated.
If his efficiency drops off trying to fight for wins, then im not overally concerned.

You have to be concerned about his efficiency. It's a major key to winning basketball games.

Its almost like its commendable for a captain to go down with his ship, at the end of a playoff run you dont want your superstar to have a lot of clips left in a chamber in a loss.

It is except that really has nothing to do with LAvine's drop in efficiency or his leadership qualities. Big part of being a winner is learning to find your open teammates if you are doubled and tripled. Even Jordan had to learn that the hard way. Once he did, he became a much better player. The GOAT.

As a whole, it would be nice for zach to get his efg% over .500 its currently at .498.
He is scoring 27 ppg with a high free throw rate.

TS% is more important especially for a player who is getting to the FT line at such a high rate. When you are taking and making that many FT's, TS% is the important number. If that number is not way above average, it means his shooting %'s are way down.

As far as developing a number 1 option, he may be the best ‘scoring prospect’ since Jordan.

In the league? Or, for the Bulls?

In the league? ... NO. not a chance. For the Bulls? No. That would have been a young D Rose. Zach, right now, would make a terrific 6th man. He doesn't have the IQ or playmaking/passing ability to be a #1. #1 scoring options MUST be able to find open teammates with regularity, or they are just high volume scorers on losing teams. If your TO rate is as high as Zach's you have to be a high assist/playmaker or your team will never be good. Period. Zach has a long way to go to be that as of now. He is getting a lot of defensive attention which should make it easier for the team as a whole to get easy looks. We aren't. That is partly... maybe even mostly on Zach right now.