KC: Zach tired of losing and speaks out

[FreePaulZipser]

If Lavine was committed to the defensive side of the ball, maybe our record would look different.

[kyrv]

I'm glad that he is upset about losing and wants to play better as a team, but saying this is a recent problem is disingenuous.

They had 5 wins in 24 games with Hoiberg and they've had 5 wins in 22 games with Boylen. They are almost exactly as bad with Boylen as the head coach.

Right, but I didn't interpret his comments on being about either coach but just that losing in general is not fun.

I don't think her intended the comments as a commentary on coaches at all. But personally, I do. Hoiberg was weak. Boylen seems flat out incompetent.

The point is they have the same record since the return of Dunn, Lauri (and eventually Bobby) as they did before. That wasn't supposed to happen. That shouldn't happen. Something is very, very wrong and if I were a obscure I would be bewildered as well. Especially when I watch the seemingly inexplicable on-court pairings, rotation and minute distribution.

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Is it already time to draw on Boylen's forehead?

Early returns are bad, but seems like of all coaches he really needed a training camp to figure out what he wanted to do. Although, since he has been with the team, one could argue that he should fit seamlessly into the HC role and know the players well.

[Stratmaster]

Right, but I didn't interpret his comments on being about either coach but just that losing in general is not fun.

I don't think her intended the comments as a commentary on coaches at all. But personally, I do. Hoiberg was weak. Boylen seems flat out incompetent.

The point is they have the same record since the return of Dunn, Lauri (and eventually Bobby) as they did before. That wasn't supposed to happen. That shouldn't happen. Something is very, very wrong and if I were a obscure I would be bewildered as well. Especially when I watch the seemingly inexplicable on-court pairings, rotation and minute distribution.

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Is it already time to draw on Boylen's forehead?

Early returns are bad, but seems like of all coaches he really needed a training camp to figure out what he wanted to do. Although, since he has been with the team, one could argue that he should fit seamlessly into the HC role and know the players well.

I hope it is just him getting his sea legs. But man, he has been brutal so far.

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[ZOMG]

Zach has every right to be pissed off. He kept his part of the bargain by working his ass off the whole summer to get better, but apparently no one else did. In addition to that, he has a new coach now who is trying to slow down his progress. This is such a bull!

Better at what??

Zach seems to have spent the summer doing the same bicep curl program as Lauri. Other than added bulk, he's the exact same player as last year. His defense certainly hasn't improved.

What is he better at this season?
Fg% check
3pt% check
Ft% check
Ft attempt check
Reb/game check
Asst/game check

Unless you have a deep hatred for Zach, there is no way those should go unnoticed to you.

I literally don't care about ANY of his individual stats if they're not leading to improved team performance. And neither should you.

Zach is being paid like a franchise cornerstone. A guy who should lead by example, make people around him better and bring us closer to winning regularly. He's doing none of these things.

There are teams in the NBA that could probably use this "improved" Zach for various purposes, but the Bulls are not one of them. I'd trade him with no hesitation.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

[Repeat 3-peat]

If Lavine was committed to the defensive side of the ball, maybe our record would look different.

You're underestimating how bad this team is.

[ZOMG]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

You've got to be kidding. On this team, he's most definitely being paid like a franchise cornerstone.

Let's not move the goalposts.

Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this. There was absolutely no market for him, but the Bulls decided to gift him 80 million dollars with the expectation that he does the things I listed above.

Zach has no reason to complain.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

You've got to be kidding. On this team, he's most definitely being paid like a franchise cornerstone.

Let's not move the goalposts.

Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this. There was absolutely no market for him, but the Bulls decided to gift him 80 million dollars with the expectation that he does the things I listed above.

Zach has no reason to complain.

He is getting paid because his contract expired and the Bulls can't let any young player walk. Doesn't mean "building block". Young core piece they shouldn't lose? Yes.

"Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this"? lol he would get a max contract from someone had he become a FA this Summer. 23 PPG scorer, athletic freak, 23 years old, he would be receiving a big contract. There was no market for Zach because he came off a season recovering from an ACL injury while only playing 24 games, most of which were not good play, but that should have been expected. The Kings were the team that gave him the contract, the Bulls matched and smartly so.

He's not perfect and has work to do but Zach is the least of my worries with this team.

[pylb]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

You've got to be kidding. On this team, he's most definitely being paid like a franchise cornerstone.

Let's not move the goalposts.

Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this. There was absolutely no market for him, but the Bulls decided to gift him 80 million dollars with the expectation that he does the things I listed above.

Zach has no reason to complain.

He's getting 20M because the Kings offered him 20M and the Bulls decided to match. So there absolutely was a "market" for him.

[ShadyMoney]

Lmaoooooo

[Ferulci]

Lmaoooooo

Looks like we got the next Kobe Bryant then, right ?
When is the championship parade planned ?

[Chicagoat]

If Zach cured world hunger, the people on this board would find a way to bring him down. I mean Zach isn't a perfect player I acknowledge that. But having a player speak out with all of our losses increasing in a season where we should have improved from last season is nice to hear.

[DorO]

Zach is going to be perennial ASG and we got him on very cheap deal. We were lucky with him and he really is the least of worries, imo only sure core player in team.

[JimmyJammer]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

You've got to be kidding. On this team, he's most definitely being paid like a franchise cornerstone.

Let's not move the goalposts.

Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this. There was absolutely no market for him, but the Bulls decided to gift him 80 million dollars with the expectation that he does the things I listed above.

Zach has no reason to complain.

You are really out of touch with reality, man. There was no market for him? His current contract actually came from another team, which the Bulls had to match. Don't you remember that, or have you conveniently chosen to ignore the facts?

[OnePointSeven]

Nice find. It's been a tough season so far, but overall I think most are being too negative about our young players.

Look, most young players are inconsistent and it takes time to win in this league. It took time even for superstars like Lebron and KD to win, but there was no debate about their talent.

Zach is probably the least of our worries at the moment. He's young, productive and signed to a (right) value contract for 3 more seasons.

Go BPA in the next draft, sign a decent bench and you'll see much better results next year. (I would add a better coach but it looks like wishful thinking right now.)

[Ice Man]

The PERs for these guys, at that age, are -

Vince 23.3
Kobe 23.3
Wade 23.1
Zach 17.4
Klay 14.3

Klay's PER is lower because at age 23 he wasn't shooting in volume. He added volume the next year, so his PER rose to 20.8. But I think he's a distraction. He's a different sort of player than the other 4 guys, because he doesn't dribble or drive, and because he's known as much for defense as he is for offense.

So the real question is, if Zach looks comparable to Vince, Kobe, and Wade on the stats that you cite, which he does, then why is he so much lower on PER? I haven't done that analysis, but whatever that answer is, it will show why people are skeptical of the comparisons. There is something big that Zach is missing that PER is capturing. By which I don't mean being clutch. PER doesn't get at intangibles, nor much at defense. There's something in Zach's offense that is failing the comparison.

[Threekola]

Zach is almost making $20mil per season. That's not being paid as a franchise cornerstone. That's 2nd/3rd option money. Which is a role I think he can be.

You've got to be kidding. On this team, he's most definitely being paid like a franchise cornerstone.

Let's not move the goalposts.

Nobody in this league is gonna pay LaVine more than this. There was absolutely no market for him, but the Bulls decided to gift him 80 million dollars with the expectation that he does the things I listed above.

Zach has no reason to complain.

Wait, what? Sacramento set the market for him by signing him to that number, we just matched the offer.

[meekrab]

The PERs for these guys, at that age, are -

Vince 23.3
Kobe 23.3
Wade 23.1
Zach 17.4
Klay 14.3

Klay's PER is lower because at age 23 he wasn't shooting in volume. He added volume the next year, so his PER rose to 20.8. But I think he's a distraction. He's a different sort of player than the other 4 guys, because he doesn't dribble or drive, and because he's known as much for defense as he is for offense.

So the real question is, if Zach looks comparable to Vince, Kobe, and Wade on the stats that you cite, which he does, then why is he so much lower on PER? I haven't done that analysis, but whatever that answer is, it will show why people are skeptical of the comparisons. There is something big that Zach is missing that PER is capturing. By which I don't mean being clutch. PER doesn't get at intangibles, nor much at defense. There's something in Zach's offense that is failing the comparison.

Turnovers, and the entire league is a lot more efficient today leading to similar raw numbers yielding a lower PER since it's normalized across the league each season.

[dice]

Nice find. It's been a tough season so far, but overall I think most are being too negative about our young players.

Look, most young players are inconsistent and it takes time to win in this league. It took time even for superstars like Lebron and KD to win, but there was no debate about their talent.

Zach is probably the least of our worries at the moment. He's young, productive and signed to a (right) value contract for 3 more seasons.

Go BPA in the next draft, sign a decent bench and you'll see much better results next year. (I would add a better coach but it looks like wishful thinking right now.)

he's still a below average player in terms of impact. since when do below average players deserve 20 mil per season?

[dice]

Zach is going to be perennial ASG and we got him on very cheap deal. We were lucky with him and he really is the least of worries, imo only sure core player in team.