Would you offer Dunn any kind of extension?

[logical_art]

The problem with Dunn is that he's not even that good on defense.

I used the Smart 3rd guard with a bit more offense comparison for Dunn in the past. That player is a useful rotation piece. He's not close to that level of defender.

[League Circles]

Just curious, does everyone know we've played better with Dunn than without him this year?

To what stat are you referring? On real plus/minus, he's -1.5, which isn't terrible -- there are a lot of bigname players in the league lower than that -- but it's lower than what Arci has. It's not that Dunn is useless, the problem with locking into him is that he can be easily replaced by a cheaper guy on a shorter-term contract.

I'm referring to how the Bulls play with him vs without him. RPM isn't that.

I agree any deal for Dunn long term is likely to be a waste, but at sub MLE money, IF we're already capped out anyway, the real downside is almost non existent IMO, with a large upside IMO.

[League Circles]

If he was going to develop any of those things it would have happened by now. He should have had a big jump this season and instead regressed despite having ample opportunity.

The positive case for Dunn entering this year was that he was an Oladipo -- a long athletic guard who was a high draft pick, just needed some time to blossom his skills/decisions. I dunno man. In Year 3 of his NBA career Vic was a 17 PER and 23 years old. That's not Dunn.

Fair, though Dunn wouldn't need to be nearly Oladipo level to justify a long term contract. I still think Boylen can get more out of him.

I'm heavily biased in favor of having players with size, FWIW.

[transplant]

Just curious, does everyone know we've played better with Dunn than without him this year?

Are you talking a net on/off stat? 82 games.com had this stat, but they appear to be out of business and I can't find anyone who keeps this stat.

So far this season, the Bulls are -7.9 points per game. I think that NBA.com's +/- stat is a simple boxscore +/- per game. So if a player played every minute of every game, he'd be -7-9. Obviously, none of the Bulls players have played every minute.

Dunn is -4.8, as is LaVine. LaVine has played the most minutes. Markkanen is -3.7. Lopez is -0.8 and Arcidiacono is -2.2. Carter is -6.6, but he played most of his minutes when the Bulls were at their worst. Sorry, but this is the best I can do.

[League Circles]

Are you talking a net on/off stat? 82 games.com had this stat, but they appear to be out of business and I can't find anyone who keeps this stat.

So far this season, the Bulls are -7.9 points per game. I think that NBA.com's +/- stat is a simple boxscore +/- per game. So if a player played every minute of every game, he'd be -7-9. Obviously, none of the Bulls players have played every minute.

Dunn is -4.8, as is LaVine. LaVine has played the most minutes. Markkanen is -3.7. Lopez is -0.8 and Arcidiacono is -2.2. Carter is -6.6, but he played most of his minutes when the Bulls were at their worst. Sorry, but this is the best I can do.

Basketball-reference.com has it. Have to go to player or team pages and find "on/off", gives you very detailed info. Dunn currently has a +0.8 net rating.

[Drellberg]

This is the definition of a case of riding out the status quo. He is not great but not expensive and has a full season ahead to raise his game, whether to re-up or go the FA route. The Bulls need to go pay $$$ to bring in a starting Pg, but Dunn is not done.

[League Circles]

Are you talking a net on/off stat? 82 games.com had this stat, but they appear to be out of business and I can't find anyone who keeps this stat.

So far this season, the Bulls are -7.9 points per game. I think that NBA.com's +/- stat is a simple boxscore +/- per game. So if a player played every minute of every game, he'd be -7-9. Obviously, none of the Bulls players have played every minute.

Dunn is -4.8, as is LaVine. LaVine has played the most minutes. Markkanen is -3.7. Lopez is -0.8 and Arcidiacono is -2.2. Carter is -6.6, but he played most of his minutes when the Bulls were at their worst. Sorry, but this is the best I can do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2019/on-off/

[NZB2323]

One of the worst things you can do as a General Manager is overpay a role player. I like Dunn, but the NBA is overflowing with good point guards. If he wants to stay here at a discount, I’m all for it, but I won’t feel bad about him taking more money somewhere else.

[transplant]

Are you talking a net on/off stat? 82 games.com had this stat, but they appear to be out of business and I can't find anyone who keeps this stat.

So far this season, the Bulls are -7.9 points per game. I think that NBA.com's +/- stat is a simple boxscore +/- per game. So if a player played every minute of every game, he'd be -7-9. Obviously, none of the Bulls players have played every minute.

Dunn is -4.8, as is LaVine. LaVine has played the most minutes. Markkanen is -3.7. Lopez is -0.8 and Arcidiacono is -2.2. Carter is -6.6, but he played most of his minutes when the Bulls were at their worst. Sorry, but this is the best I can do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2019/on-off/

Here I was trying to help you and you end up helping me. Thanks.

[dougthonus]

Are you talking a net on/off stat? 82 games.com had this stat, but they appear to be out of business and I can't find anyone who keeps this stat.

So far this season, the Bulls are -7.9 points per game. I think that NBA.com's +/- stat is a simple boxscore +/- per game. So if a player played every minute of every game, he'd be -7-9. Obviously, none of the Bulls players have played every minute.

Dunn is -4.8, as is LaVine. LaVine has played the most minutes. Markkanen is -3.7. Lopez is -0.8 and Arcidiacono is -2.2. Carter is -6.6, but he played most of his minutes when the Bulls were at their worst. Sorry, but this is the best I can do.

Basketball-reference.com has it. Have to go to player or team pages and find "on/off", gives you very detailed info. Dunn currently has a +0.8 net rating.

If you believe in this number, then why would you not make Arcidiacono the same deal instead? He's a +7.9 and the team looks much better with him on the floor.

[WindyCityBorn]

One of the worst things you can do as a General Manager is overpay a role player. I like Dunn, but the NBA is overflowing with good point guards. If he wants to stay here at a discount, I’m all for it, but I won’t feel bad about him taking more money somewhere else.

He won't get overpaid here. The question is do we want him at all?

[RedBulls23]

No, not right now. Probably not ever. I don't really like the thought of extending bench caliber players to longterm deals.

[Ice Man]

Sorta off topic, but doesn't that +0.8 stat means that with Dunn on the court, a terrible team becomes slightly less terrible? Sure, I'm willing to believe that. It doesn't mean that he is good, though. Just not quite as bad as most of the other guys.

[ZOMG]

One of the worst things you can do as a General Manager is overpay a role player. I like Dunn, but the NBA is overflowing with good point guards. If he wants to stay here at a discount, I’m all for it, but I won’t feel bad about him taking more money somewhere else.

More money?

Haha.

Hahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

People talk like every FO is as clueless as GarPax. This league has had three years to evaluate Dunn's game, and I can assure you the scouting reports don't look pretty. The market for Kris couldn't be any more dead.

[contestedlayups]

No extension for Dunn at this point. It doesn't make sense to, especially because Lavine has proven that he can remain healthy and I would expect the offense to go through him or Lauri every possession next season. Dunn getting paid when he still has so many things to work on would be wasted money, similar to Felicio.

[contestedlayups]

No, not right now. Probably not ever. I don't really like the thought of extending bench caliber players to longterm deals.

I said basically the same thing in my post, Red. It would be a deal in the same vein as Felicio's deal.

[League Circles]

Sorta off topic, but doesn't that +0.8 stat means that with Dunn on the court, a terrible team becomes slightly less terrible? Sure, I'm willing to believe that. It doesn't mean that he is good, though. Just not quite as bad as most of the other guys.

Correct. Just to be clear, I wasn't implying anything more.

FWIW, in RPM, less than a point per hundred separates these players:
Dunn
Lavine
John Wall
Derrick Rose
SGA
Dinwiddie

Just curious if everyone wants to throw out RPM in this case or if it accurately indicates that Dunn is roughly in the neighborhood with these guys for impact on winning?

I personally don't think Dunn is as good, but I largely disregard RPM.

IMO, Dunn has excellent defensive, penetration, and rebounding skills and is a solid passer. Ok set shooter too. Needs work on fouling, finishing, discipline etc.

One thing that's nice is that at least he's learned he needs to be relatively low usage, which he is.

[NZB2323]

One of the worst things you can do as a General Manager is overpay a role player. I like Dunn, but the NBA is overflowing with good point guards. If he wants to stay here at a discount, I’m all for it, but I won’t feel bad about him taking more money somewhere else.

More money?

Haha.

Hahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

People talk like every FO is as clueless as GarPax. This league has had three years to evaluate Dunn's game, and I can assure you the scouting reports don't look pretty. The market for Kris couldn't be any more dead.

Every summer GMs overpay role players.

[kodo]

Sorta off topic, but doesn't that +0.8 stat means that with Dunn on the court, a terrible team becomes slightly less terrible? Sure, I'm willing to believe that. It doesn't mean that he is good, though. Just not quite as bad as most of the other guys.

Correct. Just to be clear, I wasn't implying anything more.

FWIW, in RPM, less than a point per hundred separates these players:
Dunn
Lavine
John Wall
Derrick Rose
SGA
Dinwiddie

Just curious if everyone wants to throw out RPM in this case or if it accurately indicates that Dunn is roughly in the neighborhood with these guys for impact on winning?

I personally don't think Dunn is as good, but I largely disregard RPM.

I don't throw out RPM but I question the human conclusions most of the time, which is usually some form of is "Player X better than Player Y." Any plus minus stat, even adjusted like RPM, is a 5 man lineup stat and contextual. Going back to the SEA/OKC teams, Nick Collision was a top 10 RPM player in the entire league ahead of HOFers like Duncan. Covington is generally higher than superstars. Last season our Otto Porter had a higher RPM than Lebron.

Last year RPM also said Joe Ingles & KD had the same impact on the floor. Even as a fan of Joe Ingles, this is hard to reconcile with common sense. And it's also hard to believe Jayson Tatum got massively worse in his 2nd year in the League, he went from the top of the SFs at +2.92 last year to dropping down to barely above average at +0.6. I don't buy that Tatum became a much worse basketball player at the age of 20.

RPM seems to answer the question "does this player's mentality/skillset/style fit with his lineups/team" and not necessarily the quality. Nick Collison never demanded the ball, never took shots away from KD/Russell/Harden, set screens for them, and rebounded so he could give those 3 the ball again. He had a job, and that job of taking himself out of the game and letting the game flow through his superstars gave him a high RPM. It doesn't mean he was a star player. It also doesn't mean if you threw that version of Nick Collision on a team devoid of stars, he'd have a sky high RPM. On another team,they will need scoring to win and Nick couldn't provide that.

RPM seems to be a performance review. You can get a stellar performance review as a mail clerk and a mediocre performance review as a CTO, it doesn't mean the mail clerk is more valuable than the CTO.

Arci has a higher RPM +0.74 than Lavine or Markkanen, who are both negative. It's true our team operates smoother with Arci out there, but I'm sure not signing Arci to a max while salary dumping Lavine & Lauri.

[sco]

I had high hopes for Dunn, but not so much anymore. The problem is similar to the Zach dilemma from last year. I have seen him play well (last season, pre-injury), but there are "reasons" he is worse this season:

1) He never found a rhythm/chemistry with the team (esp. Zach) to start the season, i.e. transitioning from 2nd scoring option to 4th or 5th is a big mindset change. Last season, because we had nobody, teams would pay attention to him, and it made play making easier, this year he couldn't use the same approach to get guys open...not to mention, he wasn't sure where guys were or who could shoot. Zach, having primary PG responsibilities while Dunn was out, had a hard time (adjusting to being off ball), which was compounded matters.

2) Switching coaches/schemes mid-season is hardest on PG's, especially when Kingpin started with the walking offense.

3) I thought he developed a good chemistry with WCJ, and was on an upswing until he went down.

That said, I saw enough signs to just move on:

1) Even at his best, Dunn doesn't seem focused on getting another player a better shot by forcing defenses to react to his position. It's a skill that many PG's lack, but the good ones have this. In a sense it's why I like Zach a bit more in the Harden role because when you know teams are reacting to what you do, it's easier to find your teammates.

2) I hope we are going to find another player to replace Dunn as a starter, and I don't think Dunn will react well to coming off the bench.

3) I think Archi or other guys around the league could be had for less than $5M per year and be just as good as our back-up PG, if not better.

4) I never get the sense that Dunn is a guy who works hard at improving his skills or watching tape, and relies too much on his physical ability.

5) For all of his physical ability, he still sucks at finishing at the rim.

So, I guess I'm saying "no extension", and even more, try to trade him as part of a package. Maybe Dunn plus our 2nd moves us up for a guy who slips into the 20's that we like or a good vet or just rids us of Felicio's contract.