Around the NBA 18/19 thread 4

[JimmyJammer]

Time to play "Guess Who"


Player A:

23.8 ppg, 43.2% FG%, 36.2% 3P%, 49.3% eFG%, 4.1 RPG, 4.2 APG


Player B:

23.7 ppg, 46.7% FG%, 37.4% 3P%, 52% eFG%, 4.7 RPG, 4.5 APG

And the results:

Player A is recipient of some 3rd team All-NBA votes Donovan Mitchell

Player B is our very own Zach LaVine


Mitchell is often viewed as a cornerstone franchise player while Zach (while only being a year older) is often labeled as an empty stats guy who doesn't impact winning.

Maybe Zach's just been on bad teams? How do people think the Jazz would look if they had LaVine instead of Mitchell? All other players the same?

The difference is Player A wins and player B played for one the worst teams in the league last season. This is also why player B was not voted in for the all-star team as well. It does not sound too fair but this is how it has been. When you throw in + and - stats in, things get even a lot more complicated.

[Steve Brule]

Unrelated to everything going on here but I feel like you'd have to be **** high to give Kemba Walker a supermax

Or, you have to be a small market team with no history of acquiring big time talent and a big concern over fans not showing up to games.

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yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

[drosestruts]

Time to play "Guess Who"


Player A:

23.8 ppg, 43.2% FG%, 36.2% 3P%, 49.3% eFG%, 4.1 RPG, 4.2 APG


Player B:

23.7 ppg, 46.7% FG%, 37.4% 3P%, 52% eFG%, 4.7 RPG, 4.5 APG

And the results:

Player A is recipient of some 3rd team All-NBA votes Donovan Mitchell

Player B is our very own Zach LaVine


Mitchell is often viewed as a cornerstone franchise player while Zach (while only being a year older) is often labeled as an empty stats guy who doesn't impact winning.

Maybe Zach's just been on bad teams? How do people think the Jazz would look if they had LaVine instead of Mitchell? All other players the same?

The difference is Player A wins and player B played for one the worst teams in the league last season. This is also why player B was not voted in for the all-star team as well. It does not sound too fair but this is how it has been. When you throw in + and - stats in, things get even a lot more complicated.

But does Team A win because of player A or because of their all-defense center, better roster and better coach? That's why I think it's interesting to think about how Utah would look if the only thing you switched was Mitchell for LaVine?

LaVine's 5-man lineup with the most minutes last season was Archi-Zach-Holiday-Parker-Carter

Compare that to Mitchell who's most minutes lineup was Rubio-Mitchell-Ingles-Favors-Gobert

[Mech Engineer]

And the results:

Player A is recipient of some 3rd team All-NBA votes Donovan Mitchell

Player B is our very own Zach LaVine


Mitchell is often viewed as a cornerstone franchise player while Zach (while only being a year older) is often labeled as an empty stats guy who doesn't impact winning.

Maybe Zach's just been on bad teams? How do people think the Jazz would look if they had LaVine instead of Mitchell? All other players the same?

The difference is Player A wins and player B played for one the worst teams in the league last season. This is also why player B was not voted in for the all-star team as well. It does not sound too fair but this is how it has been. When you throw in + and - stats in, things get even a lot more complicated.

But does Team A win because of player A or because of their all-defense center, better roster and better coach? That's why I think it's interesting to think about how Utah would look if the only thing you switched was Mitchell for LaVine?

LaVine's 5-man lineup with the most minutes last season was Archi-Zach-Holiday-Parker-Carter

Compare that to Mitchell who's most minutes lineup was Rubio-Mitchell-Ingles-Favors-Gobert

Utah might have a more talented roster around Mitchell but you still cannot compare like this without context. 99% of the opposition haven't taken the Bulls as a team to game plan like a playoff opponent for the last few years. The Bulls haven't played a meaningful game for a few years.

Lavine is talented but is also an unknown in how he will do on a 5th seed, 50 win team. He also has been in the league for 4(5) years leaving out his injury year. He has to get this team to a 38 to 40 win team as a top 2 option first and then take the next step. Without similar context, we are guessing on some random stats.

[Ccwatercraft]

The difference is Player A wins and player B played for one the worst teams in the league last season. This is also why player B was not voted in for the all-star team as well. It does not sound too fair but this is how it has been. When you throw in + and - stats in, things get even a lot more complicated.

But does Team A win because of player A or because of their all-defense center, better roster and better coach? That's why I think it's interesting to think about how Utah would look if the only thing you switched was Mitchell for LaVine?

LaVine's 5-man lineup with the most minutes last season was Archi-Zach-Holiday-Parker-Carter

Compare that to Mitchell who's most minutes lineup was Rubio-Mitchell-Ingles-Favors-Gobert

Utah might have a more talented roster around Mitchell but you still cannot compare like this without context. 99% of the opposition haven't taken the Bulls as a team to game plan like a playoff opponent for the last few years. The Bulls haven't played a meaningful game for a few years.

Lavine is talented but is also an unknown in how he will do on a 5th seed, 50 win team. He also has been in the league for 4(5) years leaving out his injury year. He has to get this team to a 38 to 40 win team as a top 2 option first and then take the next step. Without similar context, we are guessing on some random stats.

i'm not convinced that Zach has been given the opportunity and supporting cast to get to a 40 win team, pull zach and replace him with mitchell on our roster last two seasons, and we still suck, at least thats my opinion.

[Mech Engineer]

But does Team A win because of player A or because of their all-defense center, better roster and better coach? That's why I think it's interesting to think about how Utah would look if the only thing you switched was Mitchell for LaVine?

LaVine's 5-man lineup with the most minutes last season was Archi-Zach-Holiday-Parker-Carter

Compare that to Mitchell who's most minutes lineup was Rubio-Mitchell-Ingles-Favors-Gobert

Utah might have a more talented roster around Mitchell but you still cannot compare like this without context. 99% of the opposition haven't taken the Bulls as a team to game plan like a playoff opponent for the last few years. The Bulls haven't played a meaningful game for a few years.

Lavine is talented but is also an unknown in how he will do on a 5th seed, 50 win team. He also has been in the league for 4(5) years leaving out his injury year. He has to get this team to a 38 to 40 win team as a top 2 option first and then take the next step. Without similar context, we are guessing on some random stats.

i'm not convinced that Zach has been given the opportunity and supporting cast to get to a 40 win team, pull zach and replace him with mitchell on our roster last two seasons, and we still suck, at least thats my opinion.

I agree he has not been given a good cast around him. But, he will get some vets this summer and also Porter. He still did have some vets like Robin, Porter, Holiday etc.. The bottom line is Lavine's stats until now especially the last few years are just NBA stats like Ron Mercer's stats in the early 2000s....worthless.

[Ice Man]

Mitchell isn't better than Zach. But in fairness, Mitchell was never a bad NBA player whereas Zach was, until recently. So it is natural than Mitchell has a better reputation. That will change next season.

[bigworld2017]

Lavine's contract will be viewed as a complete steal for The Bulls based on the production I expect to see next season. Especially if he has a back court running mate other than Dunn. Brogdon would be perfect if we can get him. Lavine is a workout junkie. He's always looking to improve himself physically and as a player. When he's on he can make it look ridiculously easy to score in the NBA. He makes it look effortless. He's still getting better. He hasn't peaked yet. And we might not be able to afford him after this contract runs out.

[Red Larrivee]

Unrelated to everything going on here but I feel like you'd have to be **** high to give Kemba Walker a supermax

Or, you have to be a small market team with no history of acquiring big time talent and a big concern over fans not showing up to games.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

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[Steve Brule]

Or, you have to be a small market team with no history of acquiring big time talent and a big concern over fans not showing up to games.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I really hope Steph ends his career in Charlotte. That city adores the Curry's. And they're great basketball fans. They deserve it.

[JimmyJammer]

Or, you have to be a small market team with no history of acquiring big time talent and a big concern over fans not showing up to games.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Best Hornet ever? HOF Alonzo Mourning once played for that franchise, you know. Larry Johnson once played there, too. Kemba is probably the best scorer in the history of the franchise, but we are in a different Era of basketball now, making it hard to even know.

[Mech Engineer]

Lavine's contract will be viewed as a complete steal for The Bulls based on the production I expect to see next season. Especially if he has a back court running mate other than Dunn. Brogdon would be perfect if we can get him. Lavine is a workout junkie. He's always looking to improve himself physically and as a player. When he's on he can make it look ridiculously easy to score in the NBA. He makes it look effortless. He's still getting better. He hasn't peaked yet. And we might not be able to afford him after this contract runs out.

Lavine looked promising(not like a rookie draft pick) as a winning NBA player with some flashes for a small period of time. But, let's not go overboard and say he is a steal. First, the most important thing for an NBA player is to be on the court. That's the #1 skill. He has been hurt/injured and so has been Lauri. Hopefully, some of it was the Bulls FO deliberately doing this to lose games.

But, until he is scoring on a winning team(a playoff bound team), he has not taken the 1st or 2nd step. Then, he has to contribute at the same rate on a playoff team which wins games. Then, there is a level where he needs to contribute on a deep playoff team etc..

There is a long, long way to go...

I really get amazed at people getting fooled by things like workout junkie. Most NBA players workout and those who don't stand out. Lavine's BBIQ hasn't increased leaps and bounds yet. He struggles with decision making which is as critical as health. He is a secondary ball handler at best not the primary initiator. If the Bulls cannot afford him after his contract runs out, they are in a great position. That means, they have other high level talents/players who are better than Lavine and they can let go of him. It is like proclaiming a draft pick as the next superstar. Even Zion who looks ridiculous is far from a guarantee that he will be an elite level player on a contending team.

[Red Larrivee]

yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Best Hornet ever? HOF Alonzo Mourning once played for that franchise, you know. Larry Johnson once played there, too. Kemba is probably the best scorer in the history of the franchise, but we are in a different Era of basketball now, making it hard to even know.

Zo played 3 seasons and demanded a trade. LJ was good, but Kemba has been great longer than any player in team history. He's loved big time here.

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[RedBulls23]

yes this too. I forgot about this. Ugh, what a depressing state of affairs that must be. Just impending mediocrity, when the alternative is an unmitigated dumpster fire. Poor Queen City.

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Best Hornet ever? HOF Alonzo Mourning once played for that franchise, you know. Larry Johnson once played there, too. Kemba is probably the best scorer in the history of the franchise, but we are in a different Era of basketball now, making it hard to even know.

Mourning played for the Pelicans who use to be the Hornets.

The current Hornets use to be the Bobcats.

[ChicagoStrong]

Yeah, it's awful. You really don't win either way.

I really wouldn't be shocked if Jordan offers him the deal. Kemba is the best Hornet ever and I think he'd rather take a chance that he can somehow retool instead of watching a long rebuild in an empty (and newly renovated) arena. Plus, Mitch's strength isn't doing complete rebuilds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Best Hornet ever? HOF Alonzo Mourning once played for that franchise, you know. Larry Johnson once played there, too. Kemba is probably the best scorer in the history of the franchise, but we are in a different Era of basketball now, making it hard to even know.

Mourning played for the Pelicans who use to be the Hornets.

The current Hornets use to be the Bobcats.

The Pelicans are technically a new franchise that started in 2002. They gave the Bobcats all of the team’s history. It’s a Browns-Ravens situation

[kodo]

Lavine's contract will be viewed as a complete steal for The Bulls based on the production I expect to see next season. Especially if he has a back court running mate other than Dunn. Brogdon would be perfect if we can get him. Lavine is a workout junkie. He's always looking to improve himself physically and as a player. When he's on he can make it look ridiculously easy to score in the NBA. He makes it look effortless. He's still getting better. He hasn't peaked yet. And we might not be able to afford him after this contract runs out.

Lavine looked promising(not like a rookie draft pick) as a winning NBA player with some flashes for a small period of time. But, let's not go overboard and say he is a steal. First, the most important thing for an NBA player is to be on the court. That's the #1 skill. He has been hurt/injured and so has been Lauri. Hopefully, some of it was the Bulls FO deliberately doing this to lose games.

But, until he is scoring on a winning team(a playoff bound team), he has not taken the 1st or 2nd step. Then, he has to contribute at the same rate on a playoff team which wins games. Then, there is a level where he needs to contribute on a deep playoff team etc..

There is a long, long way to go...
...
.

Not sure how to define steal but his contract is very high value.

I grabbed all non-rookie contracts in the neighborhood of Lavine's production (21-24 ppg, 4+ apg 4+ rpg) and averaged their contracts. Westbrook qualified but I threw him out because much of his value is his 10 rpg / 10 apg which nobody else has anything close to. The list ended up being Lavine, Holiday, Derozan, Kyrie, Blake.

The average value of their contracts was $26.4M. Lavine at $19.5M is only 73% of that average. Kyrie was also close at only $20M.

Lavine's contract value will also only likely grow even if Lavine never improves, because he's young and Lavine never gets any raises.

In 2022 Lavine will be 26 and making $19.5M.
In 2022 Jrue will be 31 and making $27M.
In 2021 Derozan will be 31 and making $28M.

Everyone on that list except Derozan has had injury issues, so it mostly equals out. Kyrie, Holiday, Blake are high injury risks and still got those contracts.

[Benedict Miller]

I wonder if the Bucks are blaming this loss on Drake too. Eric Bledsoe is playing terrible basketball 15% from 3, with Mirotic who's shooting 19%

[Mech Engineer]

I wonder if the Bucks are blaming this loss on Drake too. Eric Bledsoe is playing terrible basketball 15% from 3, with Mirotic who's shooting 19%

They are losing out because they are inexperienced and some of them are choking. They could have used Pau to get some easy buckets. Nobody else has been this deep into the playoffs. Meanwhile, in Toronto, they have failed so much that they don't need to panic.

[dice]

Remember when Butler was better than Paul George? That didn't last long.

it arguably lasted from PGs injury through last season (4 years)

I would have taken George over Butler last season too.

last year OKC substituted an ordinary oladipo for PG and won one more game. one

last year minny added jimmy and taj and won SIXTEEN more games. and it would have been more like 20 had jimmy not gotten injured

jimmy did everything for the wolves last year

[dice]

Lavine's contract will be viewed as a complete steal for The Bulls based on the production I expect to see next season. Especially if he has a back court running mate other than Dunn. Brogdon would be perfect if we can get him. Lavine is a workout junkie. He's always looking to improve himself physically and as a player. When he's on he can make it look ridiculously easy to score in the NBA. He makes it look effortless. He's still getting better. He hasn't peaked yet. And we might not be able to afford him after this contract runs out.

Lavine looked promising(not like a rookie draft pick) as a winning NBA player with some flashes for a small period of time. But, let's not go overboard and say he is a steal. First, the most important thing for an NBA player is to be on the court. That's the #1 skill. He has been hurt/injured and so has been Lauri. Hopefully, some of it was the Bulls FO deliberately doing this to lose games.

But, until he is scoring on a winning team(a playoff bound team), he has not taken the 1st or 2nd step. Then, he has to contribute at the same rate on a playoff team which wins games. Then, there is a level where he needs to contribute on a deep playoff team etc..

There is a long, long way to go...
...
.

Not sure how to define steal but his contract is very high value.

I define it as contribution to winning vs salary. as everybody should. and lavine only became an AVERAGE nba player by that measure in 2019. average players don't make $20 mil. average STARTERS don't make 20 mil. last year it was lavine stealing money