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2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery

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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#21 » by Red Larrivee » Sat May 18, 2019 4:10 pm

cjbulls wrote:You continue to ignore that Paul George put up those numbers on Fresno State in the WAC on a team that finished below .500 both years in conference and out of conference, dead last one of those year. George wasn't picked based on his numbers and his numbers didn't justify even a second round draft slot. And yes, that is a very middling efficiency for a top 10 pick from a mid-major. Reddish is playing in the ACC against Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Florida State and North Carolina.

And you are ignoring his situation, another reason why pointing to college numbers is dangerous. You could certainly argue the strengths and weaknesses of going to Duke with the other top two HS recruits and NBA draft pick projections. But I can only think of two situations where 3 elite players randomly all came together for the first time: LeBron to Miami and LeBron to Cleveland. Both times, one of the three players (Bosh and Love) took a substantial hit to their numbers. They were not the same player and both discussed at length how difficult that transition was both athletically and personally.

Now imagine instead of being 25 year old man with past NBA All-Star success and max contracts, they were 18 year old kids out on their own for the first time. How do you think those players, or anyone, would handle it?

I have Reddish in the 8-10 range, so I wouldn't end up even taking him if I was in charge of the Bulls. But there is enough reasonable doubt and NBA traits that I wouldn't pretend his college numbers mean he can't be a very good NBA player.


Again, George did not post middling efficiency in college. A 58% TS is not middling in college basketball or the NBA.

Reddish playing in the ACC is not the reason he had an awful season. I understand Reddish's situation. He became a catch/shoot player with Zion, Barrett and Jones handling the ball more. He had a three-point rate in excess of 60% and 80% of those shots were assisted on. But, Reddish was not an effective role player, nor was he a really good individual player outside of that. He was a poor offensive player last season with a few bright spots in pick-and-roll, and off the dribble shooting.

His college numbers don't mean he can't be a good NBA player; it means he's unlikely to be one. It means he's even more unlikely to become a star, which is why he's not really a high upside pick. If Reddish's profile triggers thoughts of all-stardom, then you could probably do this for the vast majority of prospects in this class.

You're disregarding Reddish's college production and game tape significantly and hoping that his high school reputation is still valid. There are very, very few examples of that being true for players in the history of the draft. Drafting Reddish is pinning hopes on multple low probabilities.

It just isn't wise for a team that needs to hit on draft picks.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#22 » by PlayerUp » Sat May 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#23 » by coldfish » Sat May 18, 2019 4:26 pm

PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


+1

There is a lot of bashing of him due to him not playing in college. Its mostly true but he did play a little. Vandy's record:
With Garland 4-0
Without Garland 5-22

I think he showed enough to not be considered a Cam Reddish style bust.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#24 » by dougthonus » Sat May 18, 2019 4:32 pm

coldfish wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


+1

There is a lot of bashing of him due to him not playing in college. Its mostly true but he did play a little. Vandy's record:
With Garland 4-0
Without Garland 5-22

I think he showed enough to not be considered a Cam Reddish style bust.


People discussing this have said give up next year's pick, minimally protected. Do you think Garland is good enough to use #7 this year and say #10 next year on? I'm coming around to him not being a Cam Reddish style bust, but I'm not sure he's a guy you give up two lotto picks for.

Is the gap between Garland and Coby White worth a future 1st? Your confidence in one vs the other that high?
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#25 » by cjbulls » Sat May 18, 2019 4:36 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
cjbulls wrote:You continue to ignore that Paul George put up those numbers on Fresno State in the WAC on a team that finished below .500 both years in conference and out of conference, dead last one of those year. George wasn't picked based on his numbers and his numbers didn't justify even a second round draft slot. And yes, that is a very middling efficiency for a top 10 pick from a mid-major. Reddish is playing in the ACC against Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, Florida State and North Carolina.

And you are ignoring his situation, another reason why pointing to college numbers is dangerous. You could certainly argue the strengths and weaknesses of going to Duke with the other top two HS recruits and NBA draft pick projections. But I can only think of two situations where 3 elite players randomly all came together for the first time: LeBron to Miami and LeBron to Cleveland. Both times, one of the three players (Bosh and Love) took a substantial hit to their numbers. They were not the same player and both discussed at length how difficult that transition was both athletically and personally.

Now imagine instead of being 25 year old man with past NBA All-Star success and max contracts, they were 18 year old kids out on their own for the first time. How do you think those players, or anyone, would handle it?

I have Reddish in the 8-10 range, so I wouldn't end up even taking him if I was in charge of the Bulls. But there is enough reasonable doubt and NBA traits that I wouldn't pretend his college numbers mean he can't be a very good NBA player.


Again, George did not post middling efficiency in college. A 58% TS is not middling in college basketball or the NBA.

Reddish playing in the ACC is not the reason he had an awful season. I understand Reddish's situation. He became a catch/shoot player with Zion, Barrett and Jones handling the ball more. He had a three-point rate in excess of 60% and 80% of those shots were assisted on. But, Reddish was not an effective role player, nor was he a really good individual player outside of that. He was a poor offensive player last season with a few bright spots in pick-and-roll, and off the dribble shooting.

His college numbers don't mean he can't be a good NBA player; it means he's unlikely to be one. It means he's even more unlikely to become a star, which is why he's not really a high upside pick. If Reddish's profile triggers thoughts of all-stardom, then you could probably do this for the vast majority of prospects in this class.

You're disregarding Reddish's college production and game tape significantly and hoping that his high school reputation is still valid. There are very, very few examples of that being true for players in the history of the draft. Drafting Reddish is pinning hopes on multple low probabilities.

It just isn't wise for a team that needs to hit on draft picks.


George’s efficiency was middling. Here are the three leading scorers for Fresno State THIS year

Braxton Huggins 18.5 (TS 57.1%)
Deshon Taylor 17.9 (TS 59.7%)
Nate Grimes 11.8 (TS 61.5%)

Last year at Fresno:

Paul George 16.8 (TS 57.2%)

I don’t remember hearing their names in the draft conversation? And George’s Fresno team was much worse. George was drafted because he had NBA traits (skill, length and athleticism).

I don’t care about HS reputation despite your insistence. I am saying college numbers have too many problems to use as an arbiter of draft ceiling. NBA traits can trump college numbers. He has all the tools to be a very good player. It’s worth understanding the reasons behind Reddish’s terrible season to determine if that will change at the next level.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#26 » by Red Larrivee » Sat May 18, 2019 4:37 pm

PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


This is the best outcome for me as well, but I wouldn't trade an additional first. Most I'd do is Memphis' second rounders this year and in 2020.

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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#27 » by Red Larrivee » Sat May 18, 2019 4:40 pm

cjbulls wrote:Here are he three leading scorers for Fresno State THIS year

Braxton Huggins 18.5 (TS 57.1%)
Deshon Taylor 17.9 (TS 59.7%)
Nate Grimes 11.8 (TS 61.5%)

Last year at Fresno:

Paul George 16.8 (TS 57.2%)

I don’t remember hearing their names in the draft conversation? And George’s Fresno team was much worse. So no, George’s True Shooting wasn't good.

I don’t care about HS reputation despite your insistence. Paul George was not a top HS prospect as you pointed out. I am saying college numbers have too many problems to use comparatively. And, more importantly, NBA traits can trump college numbers. He has all the tools to be a very good player. It’s worth understanding the reasons behind Reddish’s **** season to determine if that will change at the next level.


Last year played
Paul George’s TS% 57.2%


Obviously how you get production matters. It's why Tyler Hansbrough was not an elite prospect.

George's production was driven by many NBA traits. Reddish's production was so awful that it's difficult to argue his NBA traits were still a positive. The conferences they played in are not a big factor in this. The ACC did not make Reddish play like trash.



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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#28 » by dougthonus » Sat May 18, 2019 4:41 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


This is the best outcome for me as well, but I wouldn't trade an additional first. Most I'd do is Memphis' second rounders this year and in 2020.

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Seems pretty unlikely that's enough to get it done, but I'd be in on that trade too.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#29 » by RedBulls23 » Sat May 18, 2019 4:48 pm

I feel like the Bulls would have to give up a lottery protected pick to move up to get Garland.

I'm still not sure about giving up an asset like that.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#30 » by Dresden » Sat May 18, 2019 4:51 pm

I don't see a big enough difference between White and Garland to want to trade up for him. A second round pick, sure. But not much more than that. I don't know that Garland is even the better prospect. I like White's size, his speed, what he showed as a pg at UNC.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#31 » by gobullschi » Sat May 18, 2019 4:55 pm

JimmyJammer wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Thoughts on Nickiel Alexander-Walker?

6’6’ point guard with a lot of the skills that we are looking for. The big knock on him was that he is not an explosive athlete but is that really needed for a point guard? He is so smooth and doesn’t appear to have any issues getting past his defender. He is the cousin of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

If Darius Garland doesn’t get past PHX the Bulls could trade down and add a first in 2020 (much deeper draft)



In this short clip he shows that he can do it all. But, why isn't he being talked about, though?


He is more crafty/smooth than explosive and because of that he doesn't have the same ceiling as some of the guys that will be available in the 7-15 range. He has a solid frame but needs to add a lot more strength in his lower body. He isn't a player that can create his own shot at will. His outside shot is legit though which means he is a relatively safe prospect. I would say his ceiling is a hybrid of Brogdon/McCollum.

If the NBA ends up changing the one-and-done rule, the 2020 draft will be one of the deepest drafts in recent years. We should be exploring all options to add draft capital, whether that is trading down or taking on a bad contract. (as long as they expire with Porter & Felicio)
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#32 » by gobullschi » Sat May 18, 2019 5:01 pm

Dresden wrote:I don't see a big enough difference between White and Garland to want to trade up for him. A second round pick, sure. But not much more than that. I don't know that Garland is even the better prospect. I like White's size, his speed, what he showed as a pg at UNC.


I haven't sold myself on the idea of Coby White being a Bull. His game is so erratic and he dribbles himself into bad situations too often. He seems risky to me and I have a hard type evaluating him as an option at 7. Since Pax basically told the world we are going to draft a point guard, how big of a difference is there between Coby White and Nickeil Alexander-Walker?
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#33 » by DuckIII » Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


This is the best outcome for me as well, but I wouldn't trade an additional first. Most I'd do is Memphis' second rounders this year and in 2020.

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I’m all about trading up for Garland. But as I keep saying, our additional trade assets are either too valuable or too poor.

I’d give up a fully lottery protected first, plus the 7. That might be about the only thing we have for an extra asset in that middle value range. No way someone drops from 5 to 7 for second round scraps.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#34 » by Grodoboldo » Sat May 18, 2019 5:38 pm

gobullschi wrote:
JimmyJammer wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Thoughts on Nickiel Alexander-Walker?

6’6’ point guard with a lot of the skills that we are looking for. The big knock on him was that he is not an explosive athlete but is that really needed for a point guard? He is so smooth and doesn’t appear to have any issues getting past his defender. He is the cousin of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

If Darius Garland doesn’t get past PHX the Bulls could trade down and add a first in 2020 (much deeper draft)



In this short clip he shows that he can do it all. But, why isn't he being talked about, though?


He is more crafty/smooth than explosive and because of that he doesn't have the same ceiling as some of the guys that will be available in the 7-15 range. He has a solid frame but needs to add a lot more strength in his lower body. He isn't a player that can create his own shot at will. His outside shot is legit though which means he is a relatively safe prospect. I would say his ceiling is a hybrid of Brogdon/McCollum.

If the NBA ends up changing the one-and-done rule, the 2020 draft will be one of the deepest drafts in recent years. We should be exploring all options to add draft capital, whether that is trading down or taking on a bad contract. (as long as they expire with Porter & Felicio)


If we managed to trade down with Boston, my targets would be NAW and Horton-Tucker.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#35 » by micromonkey » Sat May 18, 2019 5:42 pm

Is anyone confident after Zion that anyone is worth 2 firsts?

Meaning this one player is better than 2 cracks at talent evaluation in different drafts?

I think numbers wise this is rarely the case. For every one success there is probably 2 + failures.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#36 » by coldfish » Sat May 18, 2019 5:45 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


+1

There is a lot of bashing of him due to him not playing in college. Its mostly true but he did play a little. Vandy's record:
With Garland 4-0
Without Garland 5-22

I think he showed enough to not be considered a Cam Reddish style bust.


People discussing this have said give up next year's pick, minimally protected. Do you think Garland is good enough to use #7 this year and say #10 next year on? I'm coming around to him not being a Cam Reddish style bust, but I'm not sure he's a guy you give up two lotto picks for.

Is the gap between Garland and Coby White worth a future 1st? Your confidence in one vs the other that high?


No, I wouldn't give up next year's pick. 2nd rounders and Dunn or Valentine type stuff. I'm not THAT high on Garland.

I don't think Coby White has a real high value. He really didn't look like a good NBA prospect. At least not worthy of a #7 pick. I would just punt on the PG position if Morant and Garland are gone and take BPA. Sign Collison as a UFA or something.

I'm still pretty convinced that one of Hunter, Culver or Garland will be there at 7. Someone is going to take a flyer on Reddish and/or Bol IMHO. If the Bulls couldn't trade up for something rather minimal, I would just take Culver and go home.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#37 » by Costa78 » Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 pm

As a UNC fan, i watched a lot of Coby White this year. I feel like if we stay at 7, he is the pick no matter what. He fits the profile of the type of PG that GarPax want.
1. Speed with the ball. Really likes to push the pace. Good finisher around the rim.
2. Size
3. Shooting range and not afraid of the big shot at the end of games.
4. Developing as a PG. still growing in this regard, was mostly a scoring guard in HS.
5. Big program pedigree.

I may be in the minority here, but give me him over Garland who is more of an unknown before going down with an injury. Plus it sounds like PHX May take him before us.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#38 » by Chi town » Sat May 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


This is the best outcome for me as well, but I wouldn't trade an additional first. Most I'd do is Memphis' second rounders this year and in 2020.

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Or Dunn. No way I’m throwing a 1st in.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#39 » by Chi town » Sat May 18, 2019 5:59 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Trade up for Garland.

Basically where I'm at right now.


This is the best outcome for me as well, but I wouldn't trade an additional first. Most I'd do is Memphis' second rounders this year and in 2020.

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I’m all about trading up for Garland. But as I keep saying, our additional trade assets are either too valuable or too poor.

I’d give up a fully lottery protected first, plus the 7. That might be about the only thing we have for an extra asset in that middle value range. No way someone drops from 5 to 7 for second round scraps.


Why not? This draft sucks.

Pax moved down from 2-4 to get Victor Khryapa.

Moving from 5-7 is nothing. Especially if your guy is still there which IMO CLE will want Culver or Hunter.

I’m not sure PHX keeps their pick. I could see them trading it for a vet like Holiday.
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Re: 2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery 

Post#40 » by TheHrvReport » Sat May 18, 2019 6:06 pm

I definitely would NOT give up a future 1st to move up 2 spots and get Garland, there is no indication he is that type of talent. I would stand pat and draft whoever is left from Garland/White/Culver/Hunter and draft BPA. For me, that player is Culver but I wouldn't be upset if we end up with any of these guys.

White would be an upgrade over Dunn but I don't expect him to be anything more than a 16 ppg/6apg player with solid shooting and defense in his prime. I don't see the Jamal Murray comparisons at all.

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