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Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition

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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#441 » by Leslie Forman » Wed Aug 7, 2019 3:06 am

dougthonus wrote:Not sure why Tarlac is worth mentioning, since I made no comment on Krause as a GM overall. I think those two moves of Kukoc and Pippen took a better, bolder GM than anything Myers has done.

Sure, I guess, by some completely arbitrary "boldness" second round pick scale, where teams sometimes literally give them away.

Muggsy Bogues with the #12 pick, now that's bold.

dougthonus wrote:NEver said it was a garbage pick. I said it was a good pick, but that the credit to give to the GM for selecting him was limited because Green was mocked 10 slots higher and he passed on Green at 30 for Festus Ezeli.

So do the Spurs deserve minimal credit for Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard? Since they were both actually mocked much higher? Are those just some basic, AnyGM moves too? I mean, Tim Duncan was far and away the clear #1 too. So really, are they even any good at drafting? Looks like they just set the Autodraft on every year.

dougthonus wrote:Could be. I'm not sure what he could do there or not do there realistically. I literally think Myers has not really proven much good or bad, he's been along on a wild ride where doing the generally conservative things landed him a super team and also saw it fall apart. That's a pretty unusual set of events to unfold that way, but here we are.

He still might be a good GM or even a great GM, but he may also end up being pretty lousy, because he just hasn't been tested.

I'm sure you don't believe it, but I am absolutely certain that a bunch of the league's GMs would have found a way to screw it up.

Maybe he hasn't done anything "bold," whatever that means, but many GMs would have done something like hold onto Monta Ellis longer, hire a retread coach (or worse, stick with Mark Jackson), offer Harrison Barnes whatever he wanted to extend, draft an "upside" guy over Draymond Green, never trade for Iguodala, etc.

You don't make the Finals five years in a row out of the West by just being a passenger. Sure he might go and pull a Dumars and just start sucking balls. Any GM might.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#442 » by dice » Wed Aug 7, 2019 5:25 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Not sure why Tarlac is worth mentioning, since I made no comment on Krause as a GM overall. I think those two moves of Kukoc and Pippen took a better, bolder GM than anything Myers has done.

Sure, I guess, by some completely arbitrary "boldness" second round pick scale, where teams sometimes literally give them away.

Muggsy Bogues with the #12 pick, now that's bold.

dougthonus wrote:NEver said it was a garbage pick. I said it was a good pick, but that the credit to give to the GM for selecting him was limited because Green was mocked 10 slots higher and he passed on Green at 30 for Festus Ezeli.

So do the Spurs deserve minimal credit for Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard? Since they were both actually mocked much higher?

the pacers wanted george hill (a bargain pick 3 years earlier for the spurs), who had only a year left on his rookie deal, in exchange for kawhi. popovich has said that was a painful deal for him to make. it was also blatantly obvious, though. did the spurs initiate contact with the pacers or vice-versa? that would interesting info to have

the same year the spurs took cory joseph a pick ahead of jimmy butler. they could have had kawhi and jimmy on the wings

and of course they only get minimal credit for parker. had they known he would be a perennial starter (let alone an all star several times over) they would never have taken the chance that he slipped as far as he did

as connoisseurs of international players they could have traded up a bit near the end of the first round and taken kirilenko in 1999. they didn't. but then they took ginobili at the end of the SECOND round the same year. i'm certainly not going to blame them much for the former. should they be praised effusively for the latter? of course not

in 2000 they took a guy in the middle of the second round who never played in the nba. two picks later the bucks took michael redd. in 2005 they took ian mahinmi 2 spots ahead of david lee. in 2013 they could have traded up a single spot and gotten gobert. they've taken international players who never came over

the draft is largely a crapshoot. if i was an owner i'd be looking for blatant errors in judgement, team building prowess and ability to make shrewd trades more than drafting from my GM simply because those are less luck-reliant attributes
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#443 » by Leslie Forman » Wed Aug 7, 2019 3:25 pm

dice wrote:the draft is largely a crapshoot. if i was an owner i'd be looking for blatant errors in judgement, team building prowess and ability to make shrewd trades more than drafting from my GM simply because those are less luck-reliant attributes

I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I think Myers deserves more credit than Doug seems willing to give him. A "visionary" second round pick? Come on. That's not a thing. He has yet to make a huge blunder that just totally screws his team in some way. I'm sure he will eventually, everyone does. But there were so many ways that team could have been screwed up that we only don't see because it didn't happen.

And it's why both of the current Reinsdorf regimes in Chicago are so poor. Because they have made those blunders over and over.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#444 » by MrSparkle » Wed Aug 7, 2019 6:21 pm

I don't see what realm you can underrate Myers' GM record. Such a consistently good deep bench, and the big name splash like Cousins had the least to do with it. Year-to-year they addressed back up guard and big man needs with desperate resources (the minimum, MLE or late FRP or 2nds). Same thing Buford/Pop consistently did in SAS. Same thing Riley had traditionally done in MIA's contending years.

During the Bulls "competitive" runs, (06/07, 10-12, 14-16) I always remembered some glaring need that simply was never addressed. To be fair the 12-14 team was still competitive, albeit with no backup C whatsoever (which led to Noah playing 40 mpg which ... probably led to his quick decline). But never mind all this -- I could not understand how with 5 years of MLEs, late FRPs and 2nds, the Bulls best backup PG was an over-the-hill Kirk Hinrich who was basically a zero-percent scoring threat in the 4th Q barre a miracle wide-open undefended jump shot... Forcing Thibs to play an over-the-hill, tunnel-vision Aaron Brooks way more than he should've. I thought that was just the most blatant demonstration of irresponsible GMing, especially knowing what you have on your hands with a 2x re-injured Derrick Rose, and an offense that almost exclusively revolved around his iso scoring ability.

That and just understaffing the wing positions after Deng's departure. They let their entire wing rotation go (Korver, Brewer, Bogans) - I realize they all had their 1-way flaws but going from that depth chart (with Deng as well) to just Jimmy, it was a big mistake. Especially how they got a pretty nice bench player in Marco and let him go too. Dunleavy was a nice pickup as a 4th guy, but he became the primary SF. Obviously McD was a monumental failure but even had he been a shooter, where were the hybrid/wing defenders? None on that team besides an ailing Kirk. Terrible GMing in my book. I feel like a good GM would realize "OK Snell is not gonna be the player we wanted. Let's address this." Instead it became the "blame Thibs for not developing our rookies" game.

And I realize they were saving for big FA splashes (the ole 06/2010/2014 plans), but at a certain point, you need to make sense of your log-jams and put a little less faith in your late FRPs.

I'm sorry, I just didn't get it. I won't stop harping. All things considered (the terrible Rose ACL injury), Bulls actually had some great opportunities between 2012 to 2015, and they blew them all. Even the min waivers. The only one they got was DJ Augustin (great rental btw). How about all the other old-timers who could still contribute? Vince Carter, Joe Johnson. Why was Miami getting them?

And let's face it, going into 15/16 with the SAME EXACT team except Portis and Hoiberg was a total crock of a joke. Most frustrating "non-move" I can think of. Good GMs just don't do that crap, even if their backs are against the wall. They'll atleast try to sign some no-name Euro vet for $1m who shoot and defend.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#445 » by sco » Thu Aug 8, 2019 1:41 am

:clap:
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#446 » by Dresden » Thu Aug 8, 2019 2:41 am

Found this quote from Durant, discussing his injury in the Finals, and whether the Warriors were to blame. I recall there was a lot of discussion about this at the time, and there were a lot of critics saying the Warriors pushed him into playing, or their medical staff misdiagnosed his injury, or were just incompetent.

“Hell, no. How can you blame [the Warriors]? Hell, no,” Durant told Yahoo Sports. “I heard the Warriors pressured me into getting back. Nobody never said a word to me during rehab as I was coming back. It was only me and [director of sports medicine and performance] Rick [Celebrini] working out every day. Right when the series started, I targeted Game 5. Hell, nah. It just happened. It’s basketball. S--- happens. Nobody was responsible for it. It was just the game. We just need to move on from that s--- because I’m going to be back playing.”
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#447 » by step » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:07 am

Dresden wrote:Found this quote from Durant, discussing his injury in the Finals, and whether the Warriors were to blame. I recall there was a lot of discussion about this at the time, and there were a lot of critics saying the Warriors pushed him into playing, or their medical staff misdiagnosed his injury, or were just incompetent.

“Hell, no. How can you blame [the Warriors]? Hell, no,” Durant told Yahoo Sports. “I heard the Warriors pressured me into getting back. Nobody never said a word to me during rehab as I was coming back. It was only me and [director of sports medicine and performance] Rick [Celebrini] working out every day. Right when the series started, I targeted Game 5. Hell, nah. It just happened. It’s basketball. S--- happens. Nobody was responsible for it. It was just the game. We just need to move on from that s--- because I’m going to be back playing.”

The blame game/discussion was silly at the time. What player wants to sit out of the NBA Finals? None.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#448 » by step » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:22 am

a three-team trade between the Heat, Wizards, and Mavericks involving John Wall and Bradley Beal could be a possibility as the season draws near

I partly want to witness the disaster that would be.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#449 » by samwana » Thu Aug 8, 2019 2:13 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:Rodman was the ultimate 3 and D player... he wasn’t but honestly he could have been he was not an inept scorer especially in college




Rodman had the best reactions when he hit threes.
I remember that game, effing awesome, Rodman was amazing and for opponents amazingly annoying.. He could get under anybody's skin.

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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#450 » by RedBulls23 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:21 pm

Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#451 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:58 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#452 » by PaKii94 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 7:46 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:



Has to be lol. Didn't the owner make him promise he'll work hard and improve? :lol:
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#453 » by RedBulls23 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 9:15 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:

It does.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#454 » by TheStig » Fri Aug 9, 2019 9:26 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:

It does.

Maybe the wizard will bring him a heart.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#455 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 11:16 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:



Has to be lol. Didn't the owner make him promise he'll work hard and improve? :lol:


Yep, even called him out in the media before reaching the deal.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#456 » by kyrv » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:56 am

kulaz3000 wrote:
erlim wrote:This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

Read on Twitter


Players like Pippen and Rodman couldn't make it in this league? What a bunch of nonsense. What do they think about Jordan then?

Rodman would defend players like Jordan, Magic, Bird who are considered some of the greatest players of all time, regardless of generation. Hell, Rodman could defend Shaq and would do an admirable job. To then say that he would just be a guard, because of his height? He was one of the most athletic, durable, strongest, and most intelligent players there was.

Pippen, I'm sorry, but again what? He could defend almost every position, because he was a great athlete, who had a similar body and length to Leonard. Those physical attributes you can't teach, whether you were born in the 70's or now, to add to that, you have him also being a really good athlete, an intelligent player who could play well on both ends of the floor.

By saying those two would be nothing but guards, I'm assuming because of their size and weight, make it seem like there weren't big players back in the days which is ludicris. You could make the arguement that there weren't as many athletic players, but both Pippen and Rodman would be able to defend big and small players, of all various sizes.

If anything, those two think way too highly of themselves, and shows their lack of knowledge.


Yes that statement is just outright absurd. Ironically, Scottie and Rodman were great also in part due to their high intelligence.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#457 » by kyrv » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:58 am

PaKii94 wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I legitimately LOLed


I feel like this has something to do with Andrew Wiggins :lol:



Has to be lol. Didn't the owner make him promise he'll work hard and improve? :lol:


But did he pinkie swear?
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#458 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:16 am

erlim wrote:This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

Read on Twitter


What do I think? I think Arenas is a freaking moron. He always was. Does anybody actually listen to his podcast. I had no idea he even had one. The guy was always an idiot. A dumb ass and a dumb player.

He hates everybody from the 90's? Scottie and Dennis would just be little guards today? What would that make you Gilbert at '6'3", 185. And I love Lou Williams as a player, always have, but he needs to hang out with better company. What is Lou if Scottie would be a little guard? LOL. These kids are too much and have no idea what they are even talking about. I mean Lou Will is 6'1", 170 lbs soaking wet. WTF are they talking about? What kind of drugs are they on?

What kind of player would Arenas be today? He had just 4 seasons in his entire career with a TS% above .540. He had one season out of 11 where he shot over .370 from 3. Career .421 FG%. He is a career .351 3 pt shooter who took bad shots and played a one dimensional game. He would just be a low efficiency chucker. His teams were pretty much horrible with him as the go to guy. He made it out of the 1st round of the playoffs just once in his career as lead dog.

Be surprised if Arenas' IQ is over 100. Also, as soon as MJ and Scottie decided to start taking and making 3 pt shots, they became quite adept at it, so don't tell me how the game today and the teams today with everybody standing out on the 3 pt line would be better than the great teams from back then. Sure players are smaller now and most have better bodies, but they also have better training tools and diets. They also have better PED's that have less harmful effects. So, to compare era's is stupid to begin with when looking at speed and bodies of players. It's all relative. The players back then would also benefit from advanced training methods and would also be practicing the long ball more.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#459 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:20 am

kyrv wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
erlim wrote:This is interesting, and I think that Arenas has a point. On his podcast last month Arenas and Lou Williams argues that Pippen and Rodman couldn’t really make it in the NBA today. And calls them arrogant for even believing they could keep up with today’s players.

It makes you think. Maybe Pip and Rodman are just a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

What do you guys think. If Pip or Rodman in their primes were playing now, do you think they could be anywhere but the G-League?

I think there is some credence that needs to be lent to more modern players making this statement and not dismissing it. There is a little part of me that is beginning to believe that if you transported our ‘95-‘96 team to 2019, they couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-gilbert-arenas-calls-out-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-for-saying-they-could-stop-anybody-in-todays-game/

Read on Twitter


Players like Pippen and Rodman couldn't make it in this league? What a bunch of nonsense. What do they think about Jordan then?

Rodman would defend players like Jordan, Magic, Bird who are considered some of the greatest players of all time, regardless of generation. Hell, Rodman could defend Shaq and would do an admirable job. To then say that he would just be a guard, because of his height? He was one of the most athletic, durable, strongest, and most intelligent players there was.

Pippen, I'm sorry, but again what? He could defend almost every position, because he was a great athlete, who had a similar body and length to Leonard. Those physical attributes you can't teach, whether you were born in the 70's or now, to add to that, you have him also being a really good athlete, an intelligent player who could play well on both ends of the floor.

By saying those two would be nothing but guards, I'm assuming because of their size and weight, make it seem like there weren't big players back in the days which is ludicris. You could make the arguement that there weren't as many athletic players, but both Pippen and Rodman would be able to defend big and small players, of all various sizes.

If anything, those two think way too highly of themselves, and shows their lack of knowledge.


Yes that statement is just outright absurd. Ironically, Scottie and Rodman were great also in part due to their high intelligence.


High IQ players have always won. One of the problems with today's game is that players don't it to think as much. The game has become simpler with it being so perimeter oriented. A good part of the floor that used to be valuable isn't even used anymore. So, players have gotten smaller and more agile. The height/weight ratios have changed a lot. When everybody is just coming down the floor and launching 3's all night, there is a lot less to think about. It's a shame really. It feels like half the game is missing.

Those two were ahead of their time if anything. Scottie a little guard? Well, he pretty much was a big guard playing as a point forward. He was big and long then for a guard and he would be big and long now for a guard. How many guards are have Scottie's size today? How many could handle and make plays like Scottie? How many can guard the perimeter. Truth is that players have actually gotten smaller over time, not bigger. They may all look like body builders but mostly due to PED's being better and safer than they were then.
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Re: Around The NBA: Off-Season Edition 

Post#460 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:29 am

There are actually less players taller than 6'9" now than there were back then. The difference is that the bigger players weigh less and are more agile. Scottie was ahead of his time as a point forward.

Key Conclusions

While the average height in the NBA has been revolving around 6'7'' for the last 30 years, the league has witnessed some big changes in the way how height is distributed and utilized in the game.
Since 2011, after almost four decades, height/weight ratio is trending upwards - players are getting more agile and quicker to fit with the modern beyond-the-perimeter game.
There is a trending decrease in height difference between the positions - centers and point guards have never been closer in terms of height.
Numerical supremacy of players taller than 6'9'' is finished after 3 decades - this is the era of 6'3''-to-6'9''-ers.

NBA big-men have experienced the biggest changes in the recent years, especially in shooting distribution.
From 2011/12 to 2017/18, NBA power forwards increased their per game 3PA by 327%.
Over the same period, 7-footers increased the share of 3-point shots in total FGA from 4,6% up to 21.3%.
Aside from the offensive rebounding, every statistical aspect covered in the research is heading towards the equal distribution among different height ranges.
In 2017/18 season, SFs and PFs averaged the same amount of assists for the first time in 5 decades.
Although declining in number, players taller than 6'9'' are contributing with the most Win Shares in the league, and have significantly separated themselves from the rest over the past several seasons.
Rookie data more explicitly confirm the trends in height distribution.
Rookie big men have become significantly lighter in the past few years - designed to fit into the perimeter-oriented game.
International players in the NBA are taller (on average) than USA natives, from point guards to centers.
Foreign big-men had a big part in the evolution of the modern game.



Although the average height has been stagnating for the last 3 decades, there have been some interesting changes in various height distributions and, naturally, game style.

Just looking at height averages by position, we can see that the difference between Cs and PGs last season has been the lowest in the past 42 years, and has been additionally reduced by 10% in the last 3 seasons.
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