Must read - How the Nets pulled it off

[panthermark]

“It was the most thorough training staff I’ve ever been a part of,” says Jared Dudley, who spent last season with the Nets, his sixth NBA team. Every muscle is tested regularly. Catapult, a GPS technology used to track player movements, helps with load management. “They had so many different ideas,” says DeMarre Carroll, a seven-team vet who played the past two seasons in Brooklyn. “Sometimes in the NBA you get caught up with the traditional stuff.”

I think this says a lot right here. Coming from a respected veteran like Dudley, who spent a lot of time in Phoenix, with the heralded Suns staff.

It's interesting, I posted in another thread that yesterday that during the broadcast from Vegas, Chauncey and Paul Pierce were talking about the importance of the medical and training staffs of teams and that many players will actually go to a team just because of the training personnel these days. That they are almost like another player on the roster. We all know that this is not something the Bulls exactly have an advantage with. Quite the contrary when respected players like Deng and Noah take parting shots at the Bulls staff on their way out. Just saying, it's not helping us. At all. Combined with the popularity among players of Gar Forman and our head coach, that's 3 strikes against the franchise.

Spot on...I meant to post about this in the ATL thread.
Leonard had specifically mentioned medical staff during his decision (Nick Nurse had also specifically mentioned the Raptors medical staff as a possible reason for him to stay) . A few days later, I think it came up with a different FA as well.

This franchise needs to get its **** together....we really do less with more.

[Michael Jackson]

“It was the most thorough training staff I’ve ever been a part of,” says Jared Dudley, who spent last season with the Nets, his sixth NBA team. Every muscle is tested regularly. Catapult, a GPS technology used to track player movements, helps with load management. “They had so many different ideas,” says DeMarre Carroll, a seven-team vet who played the past two seasons in Brooklyn. “Sometimes in the NBA you get caught up with the traditional stuff.”

I think this says a lot right here. Coming from a respected veteran like Dudley, who spent a lot of time in Phoenix, with the heralded Suns staff.

It's interesting, I posted in another thread that yesterday that during the broadcast from Vegas, Chauncey and Paul Pierce were talking about the importance of the medical and training staffs of teams and that many players will actually go to a team just because of the training personnel these days. That they are almost like another player on the roster. We all know that this is not something the Bulls exactly have an advantage with. Quite the contrary when respected players like Deng and Noah take parting shots at the Bulls staff on their way out. Just saying, it's not helping us. At all. Combined with the popularity among players of Gar Forman and our head coach, that's 3 strikes against the franchise.

Spot on...I meant to post about this in the ATL thread.
Leonard had specifically mentioned medical staff during his decision (Nick Nurse had also specifically mentioned the Raptors medical staff as a possible reason for him to stay) . A few days later, I think it came up with a different FA as well.

This franchise needs to get its **** together....we really do less with more.

David Griffin stoke the best part of Phoenix medical staff. Huge priority for him. I think it is key, way more important than who the owner is. Players rely on the medical staff they need the owner like once every few years. The Chicago Bulls need to up their staff, Paxson might still be fine now that Gar is in Siberia but they need a better staff. If they let Boylen pick his staff that is a step I. The right direction but there is a lot of work they need to do in that area.

[mschmidt64]

The players have too much control. Too much allowed collusion.

Hope it changes in the next CBA.

Is it ok for owners to collude and limit salaries/put caps on salaries or limit team changing for players because they always need to make millions in profit. The players are already treated like commodities.

I hope they loosen the rules more. It should be like a general marketplace for jobs. The owners have had too much power and basically lived of luck when they drafted a superstar and limited him to not changing teams. Let the owner and GMs work to attract the best talent and not rely on draft luck which they get usually by sucking as an organization.

Uh, a salary cap is not collusion, it is bargained for by ownership and the players association. So yes, it is perfectly ok for them to do that.

A “general marketplace for jobs”? What the heck are you even talking about? Do you mean the players should be at-will employees where they can come and go as they please? Surely you haven’t thought your position through even a little bit; other than you’ve decided you don’t like owners for some reason.

The league has a big problem when it’s biggest stars can collude, because that’s exactly what they are doing, they are planning to alter the competitive balance of the league by entering into non public agreements that undermine the spirit of open competition and transparent bidding/negotiation for player services in free agency.

If you dislike some of the inflexibility that players have traditionally had under the CBA, please explain, but saying the players are “commodities” is a sophomoric argument that is woefully out of touch with reality.

If the pendulum swings even moreso to just letting the LA teams, Miami and NY get all the players every year, the league would be unwatchable. But hey.... at least the players would have more control right? They could all have their all star teams set up in some sunny location and run roughshod over the rest of the league. Stick it to the man! It’s ownership’s fault no one wants to stay long term in Minnesota or Milwaukee!

[Wingy]

Lets provide a contrast. The Lakers are a complete mess and model of dysfunction, and due to their market they landed LeBron, AD and were a whisker away from Kawhi.

Again, great job by the Nets. But don’t overthink it.

Not saying you're wrong, not at all - but you are glossing over parts about what sounds like first rate medical staff/technology, analytics, and treatment of player families. While LA, and to a lesser extent NY will always have a leg up on Chicago - there's absolutely zero excuse for this franchise to not be among the best in those other areas. That's frustrating as a fan.

I just can't believe we do have that stuff now, else I'm sure we would see a puff piece every now, and then. The Bulls talk of culture is just that it seems: talk.

[keloms]

Lets provide a contrast. The Lakers are a complete mess and model of dysfunction, and due to their market they landed LeBron, AD and were a whisker away from Kawhi.

Again, great job by the Nets. But don’t overthink it.

Not saying you're wrong, not at all - but you are glossing over parts about what sounds like first rate medical staff/technology, analytics, and treatment of player families. While LA, and to a lesser extent NY will always have a leg up on Chicago - there's absolutely zero excuse for this franchise to not be among the best in those other areas. That's frustrating as a fan.

I just can't believe we do have that stuff now, else I'm sure we would see a puff piece every now, and then. The Bulls talk of culture is just that it seems: talk.

Read on Twitter

Must've been some stealthy research that sealed the deal.

Anyone remember when the new Advocate Center was going to be the major factor in landing new free agents too?

[Michael Jackson]

Lets provide a contrast. The Lakers are a complete mess and model of dysfunction, and due to their market they landed LeBron, AD and were a whisker away from Kawhi.

Again, great job by the Nets. But don’t overthink it.

Not saying you're wrong, not at all - but you are glossing over parts about what sounds like first rate medical staff/technology, analytics, and treatment of player families. While LA, and to a lesser extent NY will always have a leg up on Chicago - there's absolutely zero excuse for this franchise to not be among the best in those other areas. That's frustrating as a fan.

I just can't believe we do have that stuff now, else I'm sure we would see a puff piece every now, and then. The Bulls talk of culture is just that it seems: talk.

Read on Twitter

Must've been some stealthy research that sealed the deal.

Anyone remember when the new Advocate Center was going to be the major factor in landing new free agents too?

That move is still the right move. Everyone boohoos about the Knicks because the practice facility is so far away. They just need to back up that move with other moves like that, ie getting the best medical staff. Hire the rock star medical staff... that is an amenity that would draw a player in. The contracts are so huge now... that medical staff can cost you millions of dollars. That’s a better amenity than towel service me thinks. It’s the way the game is played now. The little things have to be there as much as the apparent big things.

They also need a better marketing team, these other teams assuredly are pitching the additional money that can be made market. Setting up the opportunities etc... it doesn’t seem like the Bulls are good at marketing a star this day and age. It’s the Bulls so it would be worth marketing. They don’t seem to have that up to speed. Jimmy Butler never got hollywooded here and he wants that. Oh so many holes to fill with this organization.

[logical_art]

Who cares. I'm tired of reading about how teams maneuvered to placate stars' egos. That's some TMZ ****, not actual team building.

[kyrv]

If the Nets aren’t in New York, they don’t sign Durant. Simple.

They had also never signed a top superstar in FA, so from what I have learned here, they shouldn't have wasted time clearing space.

LA and NY have now actually gotten big time players, their record was just pitiful for those markets/locations.

Now, seriously, how many titles are the great Nets going to win? Over/under .5 titles.I'm going under.

[MeloRoseNoah]

They just paid an albatross max to a guy who will be a role player in 2 year at best. There's nothing special about this move. This is purely the media being idiots and hyping up a team.

[kyrv]

Jenn Swanson was a too advanced for the NBA.

LOL.. yeah, Chicago Bulls FO (and medical and training staff- not to mention our analytics dept.)... only problem is they are just too advanced and so far ahead of their time. yeah, that's it.

Being pro-Thibs but also pro advanced medical/analytics is a pretty big divide. Thibs fought that stuff tooth and nail.

I'm not sure what Jenn did exactly and what she was supposed to do, so not going to fashion it to fit. Hopefully she gave Noah and Deng at least a few more minutes of NBA basketball but maybe not.

Remember when Thibs played a hobbling Deng 48 minutes with Butler on the bench? Good times.

Anyway I agree with you and others the medical/training dept, or the perception at least, seems to be important for quite a few players.

[johnnyvann840]

Jenn Swanson was a too advanced for the NBA.

LOL.. yeah, Chicago Bulls FO (and medical and training staff- not to mention our analytics dept.)... only problem is they are just too advanced and so far ahead of their time. yeah, that's it.

Being pro-Thibs but also pro advanced medical/analytics is a pretty big divide. Thibs fought that stuff tooth and nail.

I'm not sure what Jenn did exactly and what she was supposed to do, so not going to fashion it to fit. Hopefully she gave Noah and Deng at least a few more minutes of NBA basketball but maybe not.

Remember when Thibs played a hobbling Deng 48 minutes with Butler on the bench? Good times.

Anyway I agree with you and others the medical/training dept, or the perception at least, seems to be important for quite a few players.

Actually Thibs was big on analytics. It's a myth that he fought that stuff tooth and nail. He actually had his own version of advanced stats that he developed and used. Like his own personal version of PER. What Thibs fought was load management science and minutes restrictions. That was a problem. That much I admit. Although I agree with Thibs that some teams go overboard with that stuff and I think it actually hurts players when they have to play big minutes in the playoffs if they never have during the season.

Deng actually had his healthiest and most productive seasons of his career under Thibs, also. Whatever Thibs did with Jimmy Butler, and his development, it seemed to work really well. Butler loved Thibs and remained close to him even after he was fired. Even went to play for him in Minny. He also said that he wouldn't be the player he is without Thibs. Maybe the method of making a player earn minutes when they are younger is a good one. Development happens in practice not just games.

[johnnyvann840]

Also, when Deng left the Bulls he took shots at the training and medical staff and the FO, not Thibodeau. Same with Noah.

[johnnyvann840]

If the Nets aren’t in New York, they don’t sign Durant. Simple.

They had also never signed a top superstar in FA, so from what I have learned here, they shouldn't have wasted time clearing space.

LA and NY have now actually gotten big time players, their record was just pitiful for those markets/locations.

Now, seriously, how many titles are the great Nets going to win? Over/under .5 titles.I'm going under.

Maybe the Nets don't win a title. Maybe Durant never comes back to be the player he was after his achilles. But, if he does come back healthy, they have a good shot at at least making the ECF's. Let's just put it this way. The Nets started from a worse spot and are better than the Bulls. They lapped us in their rebuild. And they just signed two major FA's. They also have other nice young pieces like Caris Levert (who they traded for on draft day) and Jarrett Allen (who they got with a late first) and Spencer Dinwiddie, who they signed on the cheap (a guy the Bulls let walk for the likes of Jerian Grant and MCW). They have been managed really well over the last few years and they have built a team without high picks or a warm weather or "no state taxes" or without a rich history like the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls and Celtics.

Let's give some credit where credit is due. They built something good even BEFORE this summer.

[dougthonus]

I think that's simplifying things a bit. There's just an excitement about the Nets. For whatever reason, they are perceived as an incredibly smart organization that just does things right. The Bulls have fielded some really good teams but that respect for this organization has been absent for a long time.

It is my opinion that if the Bulls win 42 games this year then the same will be true, because most of this view of respect and other such things is driven by short term media focus. The Bulls would then be a team on the rise, and look out for what they do next, just like they were the last few times they were in this part of the cycle.

[Ice Man]

The Nets were smart because they had to be. Any idiot can lose games; no GM who tanks is worth a damn, because he can be replaced by my golden retriever. That doesn't mean that the GM is bad, necessarily, but if the team is tanking then it's temporarily taking a path that a furry drooler can do just as well.

The Nets didn't have that option. They had a 20-win team with exactly one tradeable asset (Brook Lopez), no first round draft pick that year, no first round draft pick for the next year. Tanking was out. They had to THINK.

And they did. Good for them. I hope they do very, very well (except for the games they play against us).

[panthermark]

I think that's simplifying things a bit. There's just an excitement about the Nets. For whatever reason, they are perceived as an incredibly smart organization that just does things right. The Bulls have fielded some really good teams but that respect for this organization has been absent for a long time.

It is my opinion that if the Bulls win 42 games this year then the same will be true, because most of this view of respect and other such things is driven by short term media focus. The Bulls would then be a team on the rise, and look out for what they do next, just like they were the last few times they were in this part of the cycle.

My guess is that what you typed is exactly what our FO thinks. They are not concerned with the ancillary amenities, they think that if they can just get to .500, everything will be OK. That seems incredibly myopic to me in this day and age.

This was prior to free agency:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/la-sp-clippers-culture-change-20190427-story.html

The Clippers have set themselves up for an influx of talent, whether it is through free agency or through trades. They’ve repaired their reputation around the league, with rival executives routinely praising the organization for a rebuilt infrastructure.

The Clippers’ investments in its basketball operations department, as well as in its scouting and analytics departments, have earned the team as much respect as the on-court attitude. Ownership is no longer a crippling disadvantage. Doc Rivers is coming off two of his best coaching seasons.

The Clippers didn’t need to push the Warriors to six games for the league to learn that. They’ve known it.

“When I came here, I basically said we’re not winning until the culture changes around here. And unfortunately, in my opinion, we wasted a lot of good talent trying to get the culture right,” Rivers said after losing Friday. “Now we have the culture right. And, to me, this team can absorb any talent. All the other things are in place for us to be great now.”

Here is another one from last year where they mention medical staff, and owner that cares, bringing in Jerry West...
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2804969-a-joke-no-more-the-clippers-aim-to-be-something-that-other-la-team-is-not

[panthermark]

The Bulls rep since the title days:

[chefo]

Hoiberg was the FO's idea of player-friendly that will have All-NBA talent flock to play for him. Yeah, that didn't work out well.

I don't think that the Bulls have had a 'master plan' since... forever. I've noted that before, but they simply react in slow-mo most the time, and would not try anything out of the prevailing orthodoxy, even when they stumble upon something decent (i.e. our 4 bigs wrecking the league, getting us 60 & 30 while being paid a combined $35M or so for 2 more years). They saw the ascent of the Dubs and decided that Thibs was obsolete and undermined him at every chance that last season. Unless he won a title, he was a goner and knew it too. Furthermore, they had the talent to beat the Cavs, but just fell apart once Gasol went down. Thibs should have been allowed another shot at LeBron.

The point being is, they just swing at random opportunities and see if anything sticks, even at low odds ones, but that's the extent of their strategy. I have not seen any deeper thought than that. They've run the Bulls to be wildly profitable, which is why I've always noted that until the $ stops coming in, it doesn't matter how inept they look to the educated fanbase, they'll have their jobs.

The Nets, on the other hand, have a Russian deca-billionaire as an owner who, if he's like other Russian oligarchs, probably only cares about winning, so if he makes $25M or loses $25M in any given year is like a rounding error on his financial statements. Bulls ownership does not come from that kind of money. JR's sports teams are his net worth by all accounts. For him it probably matters if they make $60M of operating profit/year, or $40M, or $0 because his equity is tied in them, and he 's not selling so there is no liquidity expectation. Given that the Bulls have made well over a billion over the last 20+ years, and he reportedly owns 40% of the team, he probably has quite a bit of money in non-Bulls/Sox investments by now, but nothing like the Cuban's of the NBA, or the Net's owner. Or maybe, he's so secretive and is worth billions independently, but the Bulls are not run as though that's the case.

I remember years ago (during the peak of the Dwight Howard era in Orlando), I briefly spoke with the guy running the Magic at the time. If I remember correctly, he said that they're budgeting to break even if they reach the second round of the playoffs, or perhaps it was the ECF--in either case, deep playoff runs. Of course, the Magic are owned by the DeVos family who are billionaires outside of sports.

Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I can remember, the Bulls have never been run like that. They've always had the dual mandate of being good, but also make a boatload of $.

[dougthonus]

My guess is that what you typed is exactly what our FO thinks. They are not concerned with the ancillary amenities, they think that if they can just get to .500, everything will be OK. That seems incredibly myopic to me in this day and age.

They weren't concerned to the point that they built a $25m new practice facility next to the UC to reduce commute times? They have a full time private chef to make food for the players any time they want. They have special party rooms for them to use and private areas.

What is your basis for saying you know in any way whatsoever how the Bulls amenities stack up against other teams? When I hear people talk about this, I can say "maybe you're right, but how do you know?". I know objectively the Bulls put a hell of a lot of money into building out a state of the art practice facility in the most ideal location possible and offer some pretty amazing amenities.

Maybe every other team does even more, but I have no reason to think that.

I'd also note that culture is one of those things that is perhaps not entirely a trailing indicator, but at least a huge amount of culture is trailing. Good times create less pressure and more advantages for everyone regardless of whether it is in sports or business.

[League Circles]

Hoiberg was the FO's idea of player-friendly that will have All-NBA talent flock to play for him. Yeah, that didn't work out well.

Who on earth told you the Bulls thought that? Who on earth told you ANY player flocks to play for any coach?

The Nets, on the other hand, have a Russian deca-billionaire as an owner who, if he's like other Russian oligarchs, probably only cares about winning

If he cares so little about money and is focused on winning, why did he sell 49% of his team to Tsai?