If Lauri is a future 5 on D, can WCJr be the 4?

[cjbulls]

Markkanen will not only get wore out, but he will get fouled up matching up against the Lopez, Adams, and Cousins of the world. And that’s before getting to the Embiids, KAT’s and Ayton’s out there.

And of course that’s before the complete lack of rim protection as a help defender.

[nomorezorro]

i have literally never once thought markkanen has displayed any skills suggesting he makes sense as a full-time center.

[GrowingHorns]

Lauri should be concentrating on tons of game-simulating strength drills, agility drills and so on... He never should bulk up really more than he is now. Just get enough hardness to bully smaller guys in the post to score and out-play the strongest ones with technique - and in the defense to give some help for starting centers in rim protecting, but not as the primary guy.

I actually think Wendell will be more suitable two-position player, if he finds his outside shot and will stretch the floor better than yet. After his surgery he thinks he'll play better - and i think he will, after some of the pain and strain the sports hernia has been putting on him will ease off. Will probably even improve his jumper, I think. He also told side to side movement was affected the most because of his symptoms, so in a few years we're going to witness one of the best defensive bigs in the league, who might give trouble to some players outside of 4/5 positions.

Lauri can IMO definitely become top 3 scoring PF most of his prime years, and we should try to concentrate on making him the most lethal weapon from there. And then some spot minutes on other positions if the match-ups are right.

[sco]

Posted below on another thread...thought it relevant here:

IMO, the C position has morphed into rim protection and rim running. The PF position has become predominantly a perimeter position, OR as the playmaker. The skillsets are very different IMO, and I think Lauri's are much better suited to PF than C. My biggest worry about him playing C (other than Lauri can't protect the rim) is that he'll bulk-up and lose the requisite speed and shooting touch to become an elite PF.

I don't think this point makes any sense. If so, why are top protecting running Cs like Mitchell Robinson, Gafford and Fernando available in the second round round. A decade or so ago, raw athletic rim protection guys like Tyson Chandler were drafted #2.

They are available because the offense has shifted away from the post and that there are lots of guys who can play that role...but that is what the C position has become.

[logical_art]

I'm not saying to play with 2 centers at all. That's you saying that. I'm saying WCJs defensive versatility makes up for lauri being the slowest defender of our starting 5.

I'm saying a classical 5 man in the sense of having to be the "rim protector" is an obsolete definition. Positional versatility is more than just a catch phrase.

You said this:

But labeling them as a 4 or a 5 is as pointless as most antiquated positional definitions we all grew up with. The game is offense initiator, 3 wings (or more accurately 2 wings and baseline 3 man) and a post/pick man on offense.

I'm saying there is a distinction between the two positions. The proof is that teams do not play with two centers because it doesn't work, even with the best two centers in the game. Again, that means that the distinction between 4 & 5 is real and meaningful.

But do they play with two "4"s? Or maybe two "3s" and one "4"? You seem focused on the whole two centers thing. Like I said with the Warriors they played with zero 5's for their best lineup. There is significantly less importance on filling those antiquated roles in the game today (and thus the significantly reduced demand for traditional "5's" in the game today).

And ultimately I'm just talking specifically about Lauri and WCJ here. And thus why I said labeling one as the 4 and the other as the 5 is pretty meaningless. Which is a good thing, they both can do lots of different things which is super important.

My point is they are not antiquated. There's a clear distinction between Cs and PFs. The fact that GS has been really really good without a true C doesn't mean position labels are antiquated or that there's no difference between the 4 & 5. The fact that two 5s doesn't work is evidence that the difference is real. If there was no difference between 4 & 5, you would expect that talent equal, 2 5s, 2 4s and a 4 & 5 would be equally effective. That's not the case.

[logical_art]

Markkanen will not only get wore out, but he will get fouled up matching up against the Lopez, Adams, and Cousins of the world. And that’s before getting to the Embiids, KAT’s and Ayton’s out there.

And of course that’s before the complete lack of rim protection as a help defender.

You don't need rim protection to be a good defensive team, and you don't need your center to be the rim protector for rim protection.

[logical_art]

“Per [Kevin Pelton’s] analysis of lineup data from NBA Advanced Stats, Markkanen played just 205 minutes in the middle last season, with the Bulls giving up 116.1 points per 100 possessions in that span -- a mark that would have ranked worst in the league.”

Thats a tiny sample size and we have no idea who his teammates were. Also, what's the source?

[WindyCityBorn]

I don't ever want Lauri to be our center. Why would Wendell not be in that role?

[WindyCityBorn]

“Per [Kevin Pelton’s] analysis of lineup data from NBA Advanced Stats, Markkanen played just 205 minutes in the middle last season, with the Bulls giving up 116.1 points per 100 possessions in that span -- a mark that would have ranked worst in the league.”

Thats a tiny sample size and we have no idea who his teammates were. Also, what's the source?

Markkanen is not a good defensive player so I'm not sure why it's hard to believe. I do believe he will be adequate defensively at PF long term. He needs a GREAT defender like Carter next to him though.

[Mech Engineer]

Lauri is currently projecting at best to be a starter on a team which has all-stars at the wing/guard positions. He needs to hit his ceiling offensively on that first and then things like playmaking/ability to create a little bit when he has the ball against good matchups. His defense comes later.

And, being a Center also means pick and roll defense which is crucial for a Center and not just standing like a tree which Pau Gasol used to do.

I don't think he can learn a new position and especially defense at a new position at this time. It is too much for a young guy. Just focus on offense and become the best offensive player he can and just learn to guard PFs who already create a lot of mismatches especially the vet PFs with their constant movement/ 3 pt shooting ability etc..

[cjbulls]

“Per [Kevin Pelton’s] analysis of lineup data from NBA Advanced Stats, Markkanen played just 205 minutes in the middle last season, with the Bulls giving up 116.1 points per 100 possessions in that span -- a mark that would have ranked worst in the league.”

Thats a tiny sample size and we have no idea who his teammates were. Also, what's the source?

Do you think I’m making this up when I use quotation marks and list the source in brackets?

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/27102156/nba-free-agency-rating-latest-moves

[cjbulls]

I don't ever want Lauri to be our center. Why would Wendell not be in that role?

All the people who think Lauri should play center don’t like WCJ and think he should be traded.

[cjbulls]

Markkanen will not only get wore out, but he will get fouled up matching up against the Lopez, Adams, and Cousins of the world. And that’s before getting to the Embiids, KAT’s and Ayton’s out there.

And of course that’s before the complete lack of rim protection as a help defender.

You don't need rim protection to be a good defensive team, and you don't need your center to be the rim protector for rim protection.

You can’t have bad rim protection and be a good defensive team.

If they drafted a Brandon Clarke type, then I’d agree with you in a sense. But if you bring in a shot blocker/rim protector at PF, then odds are the opposing teams center will just cover that guy instead of Lauri turning Lauri into the de facto PF again.

[DuckIII]

i have literally never once thought markkanen has displayed any skills suggesting he makes sense as a full-time center.

Yeah, my answer to this is to reject the premise. I happen to think WCJ and Lauri make a virtually ideal 4/5 pairing in today’s modern NBA. On paper anyway.

[Larryproof]

The Warriors can play a 6'7 Green at center sometimes but we can't play a 7 foot Markkanen? Lol

[nomorezorro]

the warriors can play an elite defensive player at center sometimes but we can't play a weak interior defender? lol

[nomorezorro]

lauri probably can play center in spot minutes situationally where we can exploit a mismatch without getting burned on the other end, but our defense would be a mess if he was asked to fill that role on a regular basis

[kulaz3000]

The Warriors can play a 6'7 Green at center sometimes but we can't play a 7 foot Markkanen? Lol

This is like saying, anyone over 6'4 should rebound just as well as Charles Barkley did, because Barkley was a monster rebounder at that height, so everyone taller has no excuse.

Green is an All-league defensive player. In addition, the Warriors teams were significantly more talented, thus were capable of playing great defense due to their personnel.

[Larryproof]

People should just say the Bulls don't have the right team around Markkanen to play center vs he can't play the position because of this and that, if he was on the Warriors what position would he play?

[nomorezorro]

draymond might be notionally the PF for height reasons but he'd be asked to perform a lot of the duties you'd expect of a center on defense because of markkanen's shortcomings on that end

and even draymond, who is much better suited to play center than markkanen, has played a lot of minutes next to traditional centers. going up against legit centers is a drain on your body + the nba really isn't at a point where you can't play two "big men" next to each other, no matter how badly people want to jump to that endpoint of a less positionally rigid league.

i don't understand the clamor to make our center a finesse offensive player who is much closer to holding his own on the perimeter than on the interior defensively. i get the allure of exploiting more plodding centers but honestly, it'd be easier for lauri to learn to score on smaller players than it would be to get him to anchor a defense