If Lauri is a future 5 on D, can WCJr be the 4?

[the ultimates]

Why not let WCJ who has the better standing reach and defensive instincts play center? If their development goes right they are playing most of their minutes together anyway so why have Lauri at center? That doesn't help him or the team be the best it can be.

[Bandit King]

Lauri too weak to be a center period.

[GimmeDat]

I think it's easy to envision it given his size at 7'0, but his actual wingspan/standing leap/defensive ability mean he's better at the 4. Still slide him up to the 5 at times, absolutely.

I think Lauri's closer to being a 5 than WCJ is to being a 4 though. WCJ will never play minutes at the 4 imo, or at least shouldn't.

[DASMACKDOWN]

At the end of the day, its position-less basketball.

Height it almost irrelevent to guaging who or what a player is. Skillset dictates it the most.

What is Lebron? What is Ben Simmons? What is PJ Tucker? It depends on who you ask.

Being 7 ft doesnt make you a center like being 6'9 doesnt make you a PF.

But to conform to what the OP is asking in a traditional sense, Lauri is a closer to a tall PF and Wendell is closer to shorter center.

[Indomitable]

The Warriors can play a 6'7 Green at center sometimes but we can't play a 7 foot Markkanen? Lol

Yeah the defensive player of the year can actually defend. It is not a height thing. It is an ability thing. Dennis Rodman could have played center. Even Pippen could have given you time.

[sco]

I saw this thread and it raised the same concern about Lauri playing C that I've been discussing for some time. Glad to see so much support for Lauri at PF exclusively!

Just remember THERE IS NO "C" IN LAURI MARKKANEN! I checked twice and there is no C.

[coldfish]

Offensively, Lauri is going to do the best for the team from the 5 spot. Those rim protecting centers would have to guard him at the 3p line and it would open up the middle for everyone else. Of course, the intent here is to get Wendell off the floor. If Wendell gets a 3 ball of his own, its a moot point.

Defensively, Lauri has Eddy Curry like help defense instincts. Its a problem at the 4 spot but at the 5 spot its murder for his team. He really has to work on this.

Summary:
- No one wants Lauri to play the 5 because of his defense, its his offense
- If Wendell learns to shoot the 3, this drastically reduces the benefit
- Regardless of where he plays, Lauri needs to be a better help defender

[ZOMG]

Offensively, Lauri is going to do the best for the team from the 5 spot. Those rim protecting centers would have to guard him at the 3p line and it would open up the middle for everyone else. Of course, the intent here is to get Wendell off the floor. If Wendell gets a 3 ball of his own, its a moot point.

Defensively, Lauri has Eddy Curry like help defense instincts. Its a problem at the 4 spot but at the 5 spot its murder for his team. He really has to work on this.

Summary:
- No one wants Lauri to play the 5 because of his defense, its his offense
- If Wendell learns to shoot the 3, this drastically reduces the benefit
- Regardless of where he plays, Lauri needs to be a better help defender

For a 7 footer, help defense means a LOT of meeting people at the rim while coming in ever so slightly late - as a reaction to a failed defensive assignment elsewhere. That'd be absolute murder for Lauri, with his very average length. He'd be picking up fouls left and right.

And if we project him to be a Top 2 scorer for this team (we do), he needs to stay on the floor. He's not an expendable body.

Also, "help defense" is not a straightforward concept anyway. Teams have very specific rules on when to help and where. And as everybody knows, most NBA teams can absolutely kill team defenses that go into scramble mode too easily. Sometimes it's not worth it to desperately try to prevent a layup.

Stay in front of your own man. This is something Bulls backcourts have had a LOT of trouble with over the last two seasons.

[coldfish]

Offensively, Lauri is going to do the best for the team from the 5 spot. Those rim protecting centers would have to guard him at the 3p line and it would open up the middle for everyone else. Of course, the intent here is to get Wendell off the floor. If Wendell gets a 3 ball of his own, its a moot point.

Defensively, Lauri has Eddy Curry like help defense instincts. Its a problem at the 4 spot but at the 5 spot its murder for his team. He really has to work on this.

Summary:
- No one wants Lauri to play the 5 because of his defense, its his offense
- If Wendell learns to shoot the 3, this drastically reduces the benefit
- Regardless of where he plays, Lauri needs to be a better help defender

For a 7 footer, help defense means a LOT of meeting people at the rim while coming in ever so slightly late - as a reaction to a failed defensive assignment elsewhere. That'd be absolute murder for Lauri, with his very average length. He'd be picking up fouls left and right.

And if we project him to be a Top 2 scorer for this team (we do), he needs to stay on the floor. He's not an expendable body.

Also, "help defense" is not a straightforward concept anyway. Teams have very specific rules on when to help and where. And as everybody knows, most NBA teams can absolutely kill team defenses that go into scramble mode too easily. Sometimes it's not worth it to desperately try to prevent a layup.

Stay in front of your own man. This is something Bulls backcourts have had a LOT of trouble with over the last two seasons.

For a very long time, the concept of high level defense is that the perimeter players funnel. Take away one or two things (say, drive middle and jump shot) and let the help take care of the rest. The idea of "stay in front of your man" is only partially true. You can't be a turnstyle but no one is regularly completely locking NBA players down.

All good NBA defense requires active and alert help defenders. Opting out of it is simply not an option.

Lauri is really bad at it. That "worst in the NBA" defensive rating doesn't surprise me at all. At times I saw Robin basically begging Lauri to help at times and Lauri had absolutely no clue about it. In Eddy Curry fashion, there would be times where he would be staring at his man as someone made a layup only a few feet behind him. There is a reason why he has a career block rate of 1.7%.

I'm not asking him to be Bill Russell. That said, Eddy Curry style help defense is never going to cut it and will be a permanent weakness for the entire team.

[Am2626]

The Warriors can play a 6'7 Green at center sometimes but we can't play a 7 foot Markkanen? Lol

It really doesn’t matter. They both will be on the floor together and they look like they complement each other well.

[sco]

Offensively, Lauri is going to do the best for the team from the 5 spot. Those rim protecting centers would have to guard him at the 3p line and it would open up the middle for everyone else. Of course, the intent here is to get Wendell off the floor. If Wendell gets a 3 ball of his own, its a moot point.

Defensively, Lauri has Eddy Curry like help defense instincts. Its a problem at the 4 spot but at the 5 spot its murder for his team. He really has to work on this.

Summary:
- No one wants Lauri to play the 5 because of his defense, its his offense
- If Wendell learns to shoot the 3, this drastically reduces the benefit
- Regardless of where he plays, Lauri needs to be a better help defender

For a 7 footer, help defense means a LOT of meeting people at the rim while coming in ever so slightly late - as a reaction to a failed defensive assignment elsewhere. That'd be absolute murder for Lauri, with his very average length. He'd be picking up fouls left and right.

And if we project him to be a Top 2 scorer for this team (we do), he needs to stay on the floor. He's not an expendable body.

Also, "help defense" is not a straightforward concept anyway. Teams have very specific rules on when to help and where. And as everybody knows, most NBA teams can absolutely kill team defenses that go into scramble mode too easily. Sometimes it's not worth it to desperately try to prevent a layup.

Stay in front of your own man. This is something Bulls backcourts have had a LOT of trouble with over the last two seasons.

For a very long time, the concept of high level defense is that the perimeter players funnel. Take away one or two things (say, drive middle and jump shot) and let the help take care of the rest. The idea of "stay in front of your man" is only partially true. You can't be a turnstyle but no one is regularly completely locking NBA players down.

All good NBA defense requires active and alert help defenders. Opting out of it is simply not an option.

Lauri is really bad at it. That "worst in the NBA" defensive rating doesn't surprise me at all. At times I saw Robin basically begging Lauri to help at times and Lauri had absolutely no clue about it. In Eddy Curry fashion, there would be times where he would be staring at his man as someone made a layup only a few feet behind him. There is a reason why he has a career block rate of 1.7%.

I'm not asking him to be Bill Russell. That said, Eddy Curry style help defense is never going to cut it and will be a permanent weakness for the entire team.

So you are saying Lauri is Jabari Parker on defense, but smart enough not to admit it?

[coldfish]

For a 7 footer, help defense means a LOT of meeting people at the rim while coming in ever so slightly late - as a reaction to a failed defensive assignment elsewhere. That'd be absolute murder for Lauri, with his very average length. He'd be picking up fouls left and right.

And if we project him to be a Top 2 scorer for this team (we do), he needs to stay on the floor. He's not an expendable body.

Also, "help defense" is not a straightforward concept anyway. Teams have very specific rules on when to help and where. And as everybody knows, most NBA teams can absolutely kill team defenses that go into scramble mode too easily. Sometimes it's not worth it to desperately try to prevent a layup.

Stay in front of your own man. This is something Bulls backcourts have had a LOT of trouble with over the last two seasons.

For a very long time, the concept of high level defense is that the perimeter players funnel. Take away one or two things (say, drive middle and jump shot) and let the help take care of the rest. The idea of "stay in front of your man" is only partially true. You can't be a turnstyle but no one is regularly completely locking NBA players down.

All good NBA defense requires active and alert help defenders. Opting out of it is simply not an option.

Lauri is really bad at it. That "worst in the NBA" defensive rating doesn't surprise me at all. At times I saw Robin basically begging Lauri to help at times and Lauri had absolutely no clue about it. In Eddy Curry fashion, there would be times where he would be staring at his man as someone made a layup only a few feet behind him. There is a reason why he has a career block rate of 1.7%.

I'm not asking him to be Bill Russell. That said, Eddy Curry style help defense is never going to cut it and will be a permanent weakness for the entire team.

So you are saying Lauri is Jabari Parker on defense, but smart enough not to admit it?

Lauri isn't bad on ball. Jabari was a complete train wreck in every way on defense.

[PaKii94]

For a very long time, the concept of high level defense is that the perimeter players funnel. Take away one or two things (say, drive middle and jump shot) and let the help take care of the rest. The idea of "stay in front of your man" is only partially true. You can't be a turnstyle but no one is regularly completely locking NBA players down.

All good NBA defense requires active and alert help defenders. Opting out of it is simply not an option.

Lauri is really bad at it. That "worst in the NBA" defensive rating doesn't surprise me at all. At times I saw Robin basically begging Lauri to help at times and Lauri had absolutely no clue about it. In Eddy Curry fashion, there would be times where he would be staring at his man as someone made a layup only a few feet behind him. There is a reason why he has a career block rate of 1.7%.

I'm not asking him to be Bill Russell. That said, Eddy Curry style help defense is never going to cut it and will be a permanent weakness for the entire team.

So you are saying Lauri is Jabari Parker on defense, but smart enough not to admit it?

Lauri isn't bad on ball. Jabari was a complete train wreck in every way on defense.

I guess I might have had Lauri colored glasses on and my defensive scouting isn't the best but do you have any examples showing Lauri's bad help defense? I didn't think he was elite in that regards but not that bad (i.e. average). I didn't like portis/parker's defense and I feel like that contributed towards Lauri's bad help defense too. Those two were always out of place. He definitely isn't a good rim protector though. He can get by on smaller/shorter players with his length but that falls short against legit tall/big Cs.

Outside of the paint, I do think lauri's on ball defense is underrated though. I don't remember too many blow bys on the perimeter

[musiqsoulchild]

The game has changed enough that there are very few wings left who can exploit the weak side on players like Lauri.

Thats the only positive. Otherwise, in the trust sense of basketball, Lauri is a piss poor defender.

[ZOMG]

Offensively, Lauri is going to do the best for the team from the 5 spot. Those rim protecting centers would have to guard him at the 3p line and it would open up the middle for everyone else. Of course, the intent here is to get Wendell off the floor. If Wendell gets a 3 ball of his own, its a moot point.

Defensively, Lauri has Eddy Curry like help defense instincts. Its a problem at the 4 spot but at the 5 spot its murder for his team. He really has to work on this.

Summary:
- No one wants Lauri to play the 5 because of his defense, its his offense
- If Wendell learns to shoot the 3, this drastically reduces the benefit
- Regardless of where he plays, Lauri needs to be a better help defender

For a 7 footer, help defense means a LOT of meeting people at the rim while coming in ever so slightly late - as a reaction to a failed defensive assignment elsewhere. That'd be absolute murder for Lauri, with his very average length. He'd be picking up fouls left and right.

And if we project him to be a Top 2 scorer for this team (we do), he needs to stay on the floor. He's not an expendable body.

Also, "help defense" is not a straightforward concept anyway. Teams have very specific rules on when to help and where. And as everybody knows, most NBA teams can absolutely kill team defenses that go into scramble mode too easily. Sometimes it's not worth it to desperately try to prevent a layup.

Stay in front of your own man. This is something Bulls backcourts have had a LOT of trouble with over the last two seasons.

For a very long time, the concept of high level defense is that the perimeter players funnel. Take away one or two things (say, drive middle and jump shot) and let the help take care of the rest. The idea of "stay in front of your man" is only partially true. You can't be a turnstyle but no one is regularly completely locking NBA players down.

All good NBA defense requires active and alert help defenders. Opting out of it is simply not an option.

Lauri is really bad at it. That "worst in the NBA" defensive rating doesn't surprise me at all. At times I saw Robin basically begging Lauri to help at times and Lauri had absolutely no clue about it. In Eddy Curry fashion, there would be times where he would be staring at his man as someone made a layup only a few feet behind him. There is a reason why he has a career block rate of 1.7%.

I'm not asking him to be Bill Russell. That said, Eddy Curry style help defense is never going to cut it and will be a permanent weakness for the entire team.

Lauri's bad career block rate has everything to do with his small wingspan and standing reach. You often see him going for big blocks, but he ends up looking like he's swatting invisible flies. His timing isn't good either. Simply not a rim protector in any way.

Lauri is very smart. His individual skills need honing, but from the start he's been one of those guys who have an innate understanding of how players move on the basketball court.

Like most young NBA players, he might sometimes have awareness issues in team defense, but I suspect that's not the main reason he's not an active helper. He knows that as a young big, the refs see him as a foul magnet and he'll never get the benefit of the doubt when challenging drivers.

Whatever the case, the coaches haven't seemed to mind. As far as I can remember, Lauri's never been yanked for his inadequate helping D. Forgive me if I don't consider RoLo - a guy who simply refused to play modern pick and roll defense - an authority in this.

[ZOMG]

The game has changed enough that there are very few wings left who can exploit the weak side on players like Lauri.

Thats the only positive. Otherwise, in the trust sense of basketball, Lauri is a piss poor defender.

That is such a weird statement.

Considering his size and age, Lauri is a great on-ball defender on the perimeter. Certainly better than someone like Kris Dunn, the king of fake aggression and victim of thousands of blow-bys.

[chefo]

Just an observation--NBA teams are not stupid. Going back to his rookie year, Lauri has done very well guarding the ball--both against smalls and wings.

What everybody started doing was have whomever the Bulls C was guarding set the pick for two reasons--one, it took our best defensive player (Rolo, WCJ) out to 22 feet where Rolo was clumsy and WCJ inexperienced, but more importantly, it meant that the main help was coming from either Lauri, Bobby or Jabari and the Bulls' PFs were some of the worst help defenders I've seen ever play ball. For different reasons mind you--Bobby because he was slow and lacked quickness, Jabari because of very poor technique and not caring one bit, and Lauri, because he, for whatever stupid reason, really pays attention to the motion on the weak side and was always a step or five slow to rotate as a consequence. BTW, that paying too much attention to the weak side was also true for Bobby (not for Jabari--he rarely paid attention to anything on D), which almost made me think it's part of the design of the D.

However, I'd actually say that Lauri is a good defensive player on-ball, especially 15 ft and out. People have for some reason trouble shooting over him (probably because he gets a hand up quickly) and most have a problem driving by him. Which to me means that Lauri is the perfect 3 on D. Forget him being a 5, he needs to guard big wings on D, or the worst wing, and roam. When you tell him to go block shots with his elbows, he seems to be pretty good at it. Obviously, that's not what they've been teaching him. Since Otto and Thad are pretty big dudes, I'd have them handle the 4 spot, if teams try a repeat of last year.

As for offense, there's no need to pigeon-hole anything. A competent coach and a dedicated team can have Lauri abuse pretty much anybody trying to guard him, just by being smart about ball movement and what sets are run for him. That should not be a limiting factor in whom he guards on D.

[PaKii94]

The game has changed enough that there are very few wings left who can exploit the weak side on players like Lauri.

Thats the only positive. Otherwise, in the trust sense of basketball, Lauri is a piss poor defender.

That is such a weird statement.

Considering his size and age, Lauri is a great on-ball defender on the perimeter. Certainly better than someone like Kris Dunn, the king of fake aggression and victim of thousands of blow-bys.

yeah I was looking into his defensive numbers and from 15 ft out he was a positive defender (holding the defender to negative percentages from their norm, i think like -3 to -5%?) for the season. The worst was less than 6 ft from the rim. He gave up +10FG%

[ZOMG]

Just an observation--NBA teams are not stupid. Going back to his rookie year, Lauri has done very well guarding the ball--both against smalls and wings.

What everybody started doing was have whomever the Bulls C was guarding set the pick for two reasons--one, it took our best defensive player (Rolo, WCJ) out to 22 feet where Rolo was clumsy and WCJ inexperienced, but more importantly, it meant that the main help was coming from either Lauri, Bobby or Jabari and the Bulls' PFs were some of the worst help defenders I've seen ever play ball. For different reasons mind you--Bobby because he was slow and lacked quickness, Jabari because of very poor technique and not caring one bit, and Lauri, because he, for whatever stupid reason, really pays attention to the motion on the weak side and was always a step or five slow to rotate as a consequence. BTW, that paying too much attention to the weak side was also true for Bobby (not for Jabari--he rarely paid attention to anything on D), which almost made me think it's part of the design of the D.

However, I'd actually say that Lauri is a good defensive player on-ball, especially 15 ft and out. People have for some reason trouble shooting over him (probably because he gets a hand up quickly) and most have a problem driving by him. Which to me means that Lauri is the perfect 3 on D. Forget him being a 5, he needs to guard big wings on D, or the worst wing, and roam. When you tell him to go block shots with his elbows, he seems to be pretty good at it. Obviously, that's not what they've been teaching him. Since Otto and Thad are pretty big dudes, I'd have them handle the 4 spot, if teams try a repeat of last year.

As for offense, there's no need to pigeon-hole anything. A competent coach and a dedicated team can have Lauri abuse pretty much anybody trying to guard him, just by being smart about ball movement and what sets are run for him. That should not be a limiting factor in whom he guards on D.

RoLo, knowing his limitations, pretty much never followed his man that far out, which killed the Bulls team defense. They were scrambling immediately.

Otherwise, I like your post.

[chefo]

Just an observation--NBA teams are not stupid. Going back to his rookie year, Lauri has done very well guarding the ball--both against smalls and wings.

What everybody started doing was have whomever the Bulls C was guarding set the pick for two reasons--one, it took our best defensive player (Rolo, WCJ) out to 22 feet where Rolo was clumsy and WCJ inexperienced, but more importantly, it meant that the main help was coming from either Lauri, Bobby or Jabari and the Bulls' PFs were some of the worst help defenders I've seen ever play ball. For different reasons mind you--Bobby because he was slow and lacked quickness, Jabari because of very poor technique and not caring one bit, and Lauri, because he, for whatever stupid reason, really pays attention to the motion on the weak side and was always a step or five slow to rotate as a consequence. BTW, that paying too much attention to the weak side was also true for Bobby (not for Jabari--he rarely paid attention to anything on D), which almost made me think it's part of the design of the D.

However, I'd actually say that Lauri is a good defensive player on-ball, especially 15 ft and out. People have for some reason trouble shooting over him (probably because he gets a hand up quickly) and most have a problem driving by him. Which to me means that Lauri is the perfect 3 on D. Forget him being a 5, he needs to guard big wings on D, or the worst wing, and roam. When you tell him to go block shots with his elbows, he seems to be pretty good at it. Obviously, that's not what they've been teaching him. Since Otto and Thad are pretty big dudes, I'd have them handle the 4 spot, if teams try a repeat of last year.

As for offense, there's no need to pigeon-hole anything. A competent coach and a dedicated team can have Lauri abuse pretty much anybody trying to guard him, just by being smart about ball movement and what sets are run for him. That should not be a limiting factor in whom he guards on D.

RoLo, knowing his limitations, pretty much never followed his man that far out, which killed the Bulls team defense. They were scrambling immediately.

Otherwise, I like your post.

You are correct. On the occasions that he did, all I remember was fouling 3-pt shooters and getting blown by as though he was not even there--that's what I meant by clumsy. But yeah, he almost never went out more than 15-18 ft or so.