Carmelo on 2014: "I was going to Chicago until I start getting whispers that people weren't going to be there"

[TheStig]

You're correct. My memory is flat wrong on this. Still I think push come to shove I would have preferred Melo to Pau, considering we'd likely have either Taj or Mirotic (or both on the roster).

I think we would have had Mirotic, didn't they promise him the MLE and he was deadset on coming over that summer.

Taj would have been up to Melo if he'd have taken the paycut to keep him. We didn't have max cap space without Taj going.

You don’t get Mirotic, either. They paid him MLE money but you don’t get the MLE if you use cap space, meaning it’s either Melo or Pau and Mirotic or get Melo and somehow convince Mirotic to come over for the room MLE.

Good point, wasn't the room like a million less or something back then? I don't remember it being a big gap.

[kingkirk]

Good point, wasn't the room like a million less or something back then? I don't remember it being a big gap.

I don't remember the exact values but I would imagine the discrepancy between room MLE and full MLE, or the percentage difference between the two, is similar to what it is now.

It's material, so I don't think Mirotic signs for the room MLE.

[dumbell78]

Wasn't the room around 2.7 mil? Remember MDJ signing for that amount. Don't think Niko comes over for that amount.

[kingkirk]

Wasn't the room around 2.7 mil? Remember MDJ signing for that amount. Don't think Niko comes over for that amount.

Sounds about right, with the MLE being around 5.5-6.

[johnnyvann840]

Melo did a great job picking the correct teams to compete for a championship. Those Knicks teams were amazing.

Thibs is the next Pop. He truly has transformed the timberwolves into contender.

What Thibs did in Minnesota later is irrelevant. He was a great coach in Chicago. By the way even in Minnesota he got that team to the playoffs for the first time in over a decade. That in of itself was an accomplishment. If Jimmy was happy in Minnesota they would still be a playoff team today. Meanwhile what have the Bulls accomplished since Thibs left. Are they even in a better place now? Can this core even get to a 50 win team with second round potential. Even that isn’t a given.

Thibs was also given a great team.

On the contrary, Thibs built a crappy team in Minny.

Hoiberg was also given a "Championship caliber roster" according to Gar. The same team, essentially that won 50 games and was a Pau Gasol injury away from going up 3-1 on Lebron and the Cavs. He failed to make the playoffs with that roster. So, it's not that cut and dry. When you look at some of the rosters that Thibs won with while Rose was eating skittles in his sweats in a lux box, I would say he overachieved, overall, in his time here. Not to mention he had to deal with his players being told they didn't have to do the hard drills or even practice when they didn't feel like it, as long as they had a note from "Jen".

More like Glen Taylor built a crappy team. If you believe the reports that Thibs wanted to trade Wiggins but Taylor went public with the statement that Wiggins and/or KAT were not available for any price or any players..period. Thibs was never given full autonomy to build the team he wanted and got saddled with two young players who just didn't want to put in the work to be good all around players on both ends of the floor. Taylor was also the (main) reason why Jimmy left. Taylor wouldn't even offer Jimmy the deal he deserved but he extended KAT a year before he even had to.

Thibs has/had his faults and issues, but what happened in Minnesota was on the owner way more than it was on Thibodeau.... and as previously mentioned, he at least got them into the playoffs and with a healthy Butler they were at or near the top of the league offensively when Jimmy was dressed and playing. Bottom line is that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls have had since Phil and the Bulls enjoyed their most successful seasons in the last two decades during his tenure even without their franchise player. When he was in charge of the defense in B.oston and was associate head coach, they won a title. He came to the Bulls and they made the ECF's, he went to Minnesota and they made the playoffs for the first time in forever. Meanwhile, Fred Hoiberg is out of the league, the Bulls have sucked ass since Thibs left and will be lucky to be a .500 team this coming season. Minnesota is still stuck with two one way prima donna's on max deals that the OWNER extended them.

[musiqsoulchild]

What Thibs did in Minnesota later is irrelevant. He was a great coach in Chicago. By the way even in Minnesota he got that team to the playoffs for the first time in over a decade. That in of itself was an accomplishment. If Jimmy was happy in Minnesota they would still be a playoff team today. Meanwhile what have the Bulls accomplished since Thibs left. Are they even in a better place now? Can this core even get to a 50 win team with second round potential. Even that isn’t a given.

Thibs was also given a great team.

On the contrary, Thibs built a crappy team in Minny.

Hoiberg was also given a "Championship caliber roster" according to Gar. The same team, essentially that won 50 games and was a Pau Gasol injury away from going up 3-1 on Lebron and the Cavs. He failed to make the playoffs with that roster. So, it's not that cut and dry. When you look at some of the rosters that Thibs won with while Rose was eating skittles in his sweats in a lux box, I would say he overachieved, overall, in his time here. Not to mention he had to deal with his players being told they didn't have to do the hard drills or even practice when they didn't feel like it, as long as they had a note from "Jen".

More like Glen Taylor built a crappy team. If you believe the reports that Thibs wanted to trade Wiggins but Taylor went public with the statement that Wiggins and/or KAT were not available for any price or any players..period. Thibs was never given full autonomy to build the team he wanted and got saddled with two young players who just didn't want to put in the work to be good all around players on both ends of the floor. Taylor was also the (main) reason why Jimmy left. Taylor wouldn't even offer Jimmy the deal he deserved but he extended KAT a year before he even had to.

Thibs has/had his faults and issues, but what happened in Minnesota was on the owner way more than it was on Thibodeau.... and as previously mentioned, he at least got them into the playoffs and with a healthy Butler they were at or near the top of the league offensively when Jimmy was dressed and playing. Bottom line is that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls have had since Phil and the Bulls enjoyed their most successful seasons in the last two decades during his tenure even without their franchise player. When he was in charge of the defense in B.oston and was associate head coach, they won a title. He came to the Bulls and they made the ECF's, he went to Minnesota and they made the playoffs for the first time in forever. Meanwhile, Fred Hoiberg is out of the league, the Bulls have sucked ass since Thibs left and will be lucky to be a .500 team this coming season. Minnesota is still stuck with two one way prima donna's on max deals that the OWNER extended them.

I could have told you that in a few words. I agree with you in that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls had after PJ.

I do not agree with you that the roster that Fred was given was championship caliber. That's barf worthy. Doesnt matter if the FO says it. Make up your own mind Johnny.

The 2010 and 2011 rosters - right up until Rose's injury- they were beautiful rosters.

[DuckIII]

I love the way Melo’s career is ending.

Maybe you can explain in more detail because on the surface this comment kind of seems excessive for a player who wasn’t a bad or terrible person.

I think it’s cosmic justice that a player who had a career defined by selfishness can’t go out the way he selfishly wants to because of that exact thing.

[League Circles]

Good point, wasn't the room like a million less or something back then? I don't remember it being a big gap.

I don't remember the exact values but I would imagine the discrepancy between room MLE and full MLE, or the percentage difference between the two, is similar to what it is now.

It's material, so I don't think Mirotic signs for the room MLE.

Plus IIRC the room mle can only be two years.

[TheStig]

Wasn't the room around 2.7 mil? Remember MDJ signing for that amount. Don't think Niko comes over for that amount.

Sounds about right, with the MLE being around 5.5-6.

It was 2.7 vs 5.3. So about double. I was remembering this years value that was 4.7.

[Am2626]

Thibs was also given a great team.

On the contrary, Thibs built a crappy team in Minny.

Hoiberg was also given a "Championship caliber roster" according to Gar. The same team, essentially that won 50 games and was a Pau Gasol injury away from going up 3-1 on Lebron and the Cavs. He failed to make the playoffs with that roster. So, it's not that cut and dry. When you look at some of the rosters that Thibs won with while Rose was eating skittles in his sweats in a lux box, I would say he overachieved, overall, in his time here. Not to mention he had to deal with his players being told they didn't have to do the hard drills or even practice when they didn't feel like it, as long as they had a note from "Jen".

More like Glen Taylor built a crappy team. If you believe the reports that Thibs wanted to trade Wiggins but Taylor went public with the statement that Wiggins and/or KAT were not available for any price or any players..period. Thibs was never given full autonomy to build the team he wanted and got saddled with two young players who just didn't want to put in the work to be good all around players on both ends of the floor. Taylor was also the (main) reason why Jimmy left. Taylor wouldn't even offer Jimmy the deal he deserved but he extended KAT a year before he even had to.

Thibs has/had his faults and issues, but what happened in Minnesota was on the owner way more than it was on Thibodeau.... and as previously mentioned, he at least got them into the playoffs and with a healthy Butler they were at or near the top of the league offensively when Jimmy was dressed and playing. Bottom line is that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls have had since Phil and the Bulls enjoyed their most successful seasons in the last two decades during his tenure even without their franchise player. When he was in charge of the defense in B.oston and was associate head coach, they won a title. He came to the Bulls and they made the ECF's, he went to Minnesota and they made the playoffs for the first time in forever. Meanwhile, Fred Hoiberg is out of the league, the Bulls have sucked ass since Thibs left and will be lucky to be a .500 team this coming season. Minnesota is still stuck with two one way prima donna's on max deals that the OWNER extended them.

I could have told you that in a few words. I agree with you in that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls had after PJ.

I do not agree with you that the roster that Fred was given was championship caliber. That's barf worthy. Doesnt matter if the FO says it. Make up your own mind Johnny.

The 2010 and 2011 rosters - right up until Rose's injury- they were beautiful rosters.

Agreed that that was not a championship worthy roster but it goes to show how Thibs was able to maximize the talents of his teams. He got the most out of that team like he did with many other Bulls teams. If he just toned it down a little in the regular season and not over extend some of his star players he would have been the perfect coach. He did not deserve to get fired when he did. Reinsdorf should have shown his loyalty to some of his coaches and star players and not his FO. He has put his trust in the wrong people which I feel is one of his biggest flaws.

[musiqsoulchild]

Hoiberg was also given a "Championship caliber roster" according to Gar. The same team, essentially that won 50 games and was a Pau Gasol injury away from going up 3-1 on Lebron and the Cavs. He failed to make the playoffs with that roster. So, it's not that cut and dry. When you look at some of the rosters that Thibs won with while Rose was eating skittles in his sweats in a lux box, I would say he overachieved, overall, in his time here. Not to mention he had to deal with his players being told they didn't have to do the hard drills or even practice when they didn't feel like it, as long as they had a note from "Jen".

More like Glen Taylor built a crappy team. If you believe the reports that Thibs wanted to trade Wiggins but Taylor went public with the statement that Wiggins and/or KAT were not available for any price or any players..period. Thibs was never given full autonomy to build the team he wanted and got saddled with two young players who just didn't want to put in the work to be good all around players on both ends of the floor. Taylor was also the (main) reason why Jimmy left. Taylor wouldn't even offer Jimmy the deal he deserved but he extended KAT a year before he even had to.

Thibs has/had his faults and issues, but what happened in Minnesota was on the owner way more than it was on Thibodeau.... and as previously mentioned, he at least got them into the playoffs and with a healthy Butler they were at or near the top of the league offensively when Jimmy was dressed and playing. Bottom line is that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls have had since Phil and the Bulls enjoyed their most successful seasons in the last two decades during his tenure even without their franchise player. When he was in charge of the defense in B.oston and was associate head coach, they won a title. He came to the Bulls and they made the ECF's, he went to Minnesota and they made the playoffs for the first time in forever. Meanwhile, Fred Hoiberg is out of the league, the Bulls have sucked ass since Thibs left and will be lucky to be a .500 team this coming season. Minnesota is still stuck with two one way prima donna's on max deals that the OWNER extended them.

I could have told you that in a few words. I agree with you in that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls had after PJ.

I do not agree with you that the roster that Fred was given was championship caliber. That's barf worthy. Doesnt matter if the FO says it. Make up your own mind Johnny.

The 2010 and 2011 rosters - right up until Rose's injury- they were beautiful rosters.

Agreed that that was not a championship worthy roster but it goes to show how Thibs was able to maximize the talents of his teams. He got the most out of that team like he did with many other Bulls teams. If he just toned it down a little in the regular season and not over extend some of his star players he would have been the perfect coach. He did not deserve to get fired when he did. Reinsdorf should have shown his loyalty to some of his coaches and star players and not his FO. He has put his trust in the wrong people which I feel is one of his biggest flaws.

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

[Am2626]

I could have told you that in a few words. I agree with you in that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls had after PJ.

I do not agree with you that the roster that Fred was given was championship caliber. That's barf worthy. Doesnt matter if the FO says it. Make up your own mind Johnny.

The 2010 and 2011 rosters - right up until Rose's injury- they were beautiful rosters.

Agreed that that was not a championship worthy roster but it goes to show how Thibs was able to maximize the talents of his teams. He got the most out of that team like he did with many other Bulls teams. If he just toned it down a little in the regular season and not over extend some of his star players he would have been the perfect coach. He did not deserve to get fired when he did. Reinsdorf should have shown his loyalty to some of his coaches and star players and not his FO. He has put his trust in the wrong people which I feel is one of his biggest flaws.

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

[johnnyvann840]

Agreed that that was not a championship worthy roster but it goes to show how Thibs was able to maximize the talents of his teams. He got the most out of that team like he did with many other Bulls teams. If he just toned it down a little in the regular season and not over extend some of his star players he would have been the perfect coach. He did not deserve to get fired when he did. Reinsdorf should have shown his loyalty to some of his coaches and star players and not his FO. He has put his trust in the wrong people which I feel is one of his biggest flaws.

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

Yeah, this FO is a 1.7% lucky ass ping pong ball away from being "bupkis" for the last two decades. Without Rose, we don't even have a single ECF appearance and without Thibs we probably are still sitting on one or two playoff series wins over the same time period.

As lucky as they were to hit on that draft lottery, you could also say they F'd the whole thing up by not getting at least one more ball handler/shooting guard/point forward to be a relief valve for Derrick when he was blitzed at half court. Also, the roster was just so devoid of 3 point shooting that it was miracle they won 62 games. As good as those teams were, they were never winning a title without that guard piece and another shooter or two. Instead we had to "Boganize" our way to the ECF's. Then, Thibs coached the hell out of those Rose-less teams just to get to a couple 2nd rounds. Sorry, but I just cannot in good conscience give too much credit to the FO for that era.

Also, Thibs was a JR hire that took an owner veto (and an Obama recommendation to hire Thibs) on Pringles to even get here to coach. Thank goodness the President had connections and was a Bulls fan at the time or we could very well be looking as bad as the Knicks or Kings during the last couple of decades.

[musiqsoulchild]

Agreed that that was not a championship worthy roster but it goes to show how Thibs was able to maximize the talents of his teams. He got the most out of that team like he did with many other Bulls teams. If he just toned it down a little in the regular season and not over extend some of his star players he would have been the perfect coach. He did not deserve to get fired when he did. Reinsdorf should have shown his loyalty to some of his coaches and star players and not his FO. He has put his trust in the wrong people which I feel is one of his biggest flaws.

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

That entire team/era was built via great drafting and superb pickups.

In no particular chronological order:

Noah at #9
Taj Gibson drafted
Jimmy draft
Kirk trade and then getting him back for very cheap to replace injured Rose
CJ Miles signing
DJ signing
Nate signing
Kurt Thomas pickup
Asik Draft
Korver signing ( trading him away was bad)
Ronnie Brewer signing ( Year 1 and 2 that was good)
Marco Belinelli signing
Dunleay signing
Pau Gasol signing

There were a LOT of good moves we made in the Rose era. Unfortunately, these moves werent enough to account for the Rose + Noah injuries that pretty much decimated the teams standing as an ECF team.

[johnnyvann840]

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

That entire team/era was built via great drafting and superb pickups.

In no particular chronological order:

Noah at #9
Taj Gibson drafted
Jimmy draft
Kirk trade and then getting him back for very cheap to replace injured Rose
CJ Miles signing
DJ signing
Nate signing
Kurt Thomas pickup
Asik Draft
Korver signing ( trading him away was bad)
Ronnie Brewer signing ( Year 1 and 2 that was good)
Marco Belinelli signing
Dunleay signing
Pau Gasol signing

There were a LOT of good moves we made in the Rose era. Unfortunately, these moves werent enough to account for the Rose + Noah injuries that pretty much decimated the teams standing as an ECF team.

I agree that GarPax had a terrific run in the draft. I have never denied that the Bulls drafted well over the tenure of this regime. It's just everything else that have been deficient in. Player/coach relations, trading, free agency.

One thing Gar does get credit for is Taj Gibson. I know it was Gar who wanted and pushed for Taj. This came from his connection with Taj's college coach, Tim Floyd, and his relationship with Gar. It was the one great thing that ever came from Gar's Iowa connection. Gar is/was apparently always a good scout.

btw, I think you meant CJ Watson as CJ Miles has never been a Bull.

[musiqsoulchild]

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

That entire team/era was built via great drafting and superb pickups.

In no particular chronological order:

Noah at #9
Taj Gibson drafted
Jimmy draft
Kirk trade and then getting him back for very cheap to replace injured Rose
CJ Miles signing
DJ signing
Nate signing
Kurt Thomas pickup
Asik Draft
Korver signing ( trading him away was bad)
Ronnie Brewer signing ( Year 1 and 2 that was good)
Marco Belinelli signing
Dunleay signing
Pau Gasol signing

There were a LOT of good moves we made in the Rose era. Unfortunately, these moves werent enough to account for the Rose + Noah injuries that pretty much decimated the teams standing as an ECF team.

I agree that GarPax had a terrific run in the draft. I have never denied that the Bulls drafted well over the tenure of this regime. It's just everything else that have been deficient in. Player/coach relations, trading, free agency.

One thing Gar does get credit for is Taj Gibson. I know it was Gar who wanted and pushed for Taj. This came from his connection with Taj's college coach, Tim Floyd, and his relationship with Gar. It was the one great thing that ever came from Gar's Iowa connection. Gar is/was apparently always a good scout.

btw, I think you meant CJ Watson as CJ Miles has never been a Bull.

Yup, Wastson not Miles.

[League Circles]

I have always maintained that the Rose era results are as much a function of the FO as they are of Thibs.

And thats for both the good parts and the bad parts of the Rose era.

Definitely disagree. Rose was drafted out of pure luck so the Bulls were not supposed to be in a position to draft him.I will give Paxson credit for picking Rose over Beasley. Drafting is the one area that Paxson has excelled in.

Thibs maximized the talents out of every team he coached with the Bulls. Rose was the other important piece that contributed to that era. I don’t really see what great moves the FO made during that era. They picked up leftover free agents after missing on their top priorities. When they went into the tax they signed an over the hill Rip Hamilton. At best their efforts were mediocre during that era. The Bulls don’t have the type of success they had without Rose and Thibs.

Yeah, this FO is a 1.7% lucky ass ping pong ball away from being "bupkis" for the last two decades. Without Rose, we don't even have a single ECF appearance and without Thibs we probably are still sitting on one or two playoff series wins over the same time period.

As lucky as they were to hit on that draft lottery, you could also say they F'd the whole thing up by not getting at least one more ball handler/shooting guard/point forward to be a relief valve for Derrick when he was blitzed at half court. Also, the roster was just so devoid of 3 point shooting that it was miracle they won 62 games. As good as those teams were, they were never winning a title without that guard piece and another shooter or two. Instead we had to "Boganize" our way to the ECF's. Then, Thibs coached the hell out of those Rose-less teams just to get to a couple 2nd rounds. Sorry, but I just cannot in good conscience give too much credit to the FO for that era.

Also, Thibs was a JR hire that took an owner veto (and an Obama recommendation to hire Thibs) on Pringles to even get here to coach. Thank goodness the President had connections and was a Bulls fan at the time or we could very well be looking as bad as the Knicks or Kings during the last couple of decades.

Johnny, this last part is incorrect. Yes, Arne Duncan recommended Thibbs in 2010 to JR, who was eventually hired by the FO. We don't know if he was forced upon the FO or they agreed and whether they were going to hire interview him anyways. Pringles was vetoed in 2008 by JR as he tried to negotiate a contract with him. Then JR vetoed Pax's second choice Doug Collins due to friendship, then VDN was hired as third choice.

[dougthonus]

I agree that GarPax had a terrific run in the draft. I have never denied that the Bulls drafted well over the tenure of this regime. It's just everything else that have been deficient in. Player/coach relations, trading, free agency.

Neither free agency or trading has really been a deficit. They have hit solid singles in both pretty consistent in both. Looking at their trades, I think every single one of their trades has aged well or was garbage for garbage except the McDermott trade (discounting Tyrus/Aldridge as that was more of a draft pick with a trade to just add a couple assets and then they took the guy they wanted anyway).

Curry trade was amazing
Trading 2005 #21 for 2004 #7 was amazing
Trading Noc for Miller was good
Trading Johnson, Thabo, Tyrus for 1st rounders was good
Butler trade looks good to me (though I will acknowledge some argument over it)

Overall, they've done very well trading, probably B to B+ grade on trades. The counter argument is equivalent to trying to prove a negative. You think they should have won their trades by even bigger margins, but on aggregate, they are vastly, vastly ahead in terms of what they got vs what they gave in trades.

FA is more of a mixed bag, but isn't as awful as people act like it is:
Boozer, Wade, Wallace, and Felicio are the misses. Wade was on a 2 year contract, and we knew we were limiting risk and paying more for it by doing 2 years. Felicio was inexplicably bad. Wallace/Boozer didn't work out great in the long run but both were viewed as signings that would help in the short run and both did (though we would have hoped the short run was at least 1 year longer in both cases).

Their margin FA signings were generally good: Korver, Brewer, CJ, Robinson, Nocioni, MDJ, Pau etc...

Again, no home runs, but overall their record there is probably C+/B- level given they attracted some very good players.

[League Circles]

Doug makes good points but I'd say there have been negative trades as well:

Taking on the longer term salary of Grant and Lopez in the Rose trade was really bad IMO. Really limited our ability to actually build around Jimmy. If that was the best we could do we should have kept Rose even if only to let him expire the next summer.

The Niko trade was bad IMO. IMO we could have found better ways to tank with Niko, and Chandler Hutchison was a very poor return for a good starting caliber player like Niko as he entered his prime on a fair deal. Especially since we had to take on Asik as well.

Tyson Chandler trade was bad in real time IMO.

Coaching picks have easily been the biggest blemish on the Pax regime IMO.

Fred and VDN were really bad hires. Skiles quit on the team like a baby, and Jim Boylan in 2008 was even worse than Fred. Only Thibbs has been outright good. Hopefully Boylen is good.

[Peelboy]

Thibs has/had his faults and issues, but what happened in Minnesota was on the owner way more than it was on Thibodeau.... and as previously mentioned, he at least got them into the playoffs and with a healthy Butler they were at or near the top of the league offensively when Jimmy was dressed and playing. Bottom line is that Thibs was the best coach the Bulls have had since Phil and the Bulls enjoyed their most successful seasons in the last two decades during his tenure even without their franchise player. When he was in charge of the defense in B.oston and was associate head coach, they won a title. He came to the Bulls and they made the ECF's, he went to Minnesota and they made the playoffs for the first time in forever. Meanwhile, Fred Hoiberg is out of the league, the Bulls have sucked ass since Thibs left and will be lucky to be a .500 team this coming season. Minnesota is still stuck with two one way prima donna's on max deals that the OWNER extended them.

I don't think Thibs is a bad coach, I think Thibs is a coach with a limited shelf life, both because he wears on his players, and because he has had substantial issues working with multiple FOs. (And FWIW, he hasn't exactly had teams breaking down his door to come coach them, which given his on-court success speaks volumes.) So it's not inconsistent to say 1. Thibs is the best coach the Bulls had in a while and 2. He wore out his time both with the team and FO (due in part to issues on both sides). In Minnesota, it's a bit wilder given the much shorter tenure, but even there, he was substantially in charge of the team on the floor and also alienated some of the key players - so while it's not all on him because of Taylor, etc it is substantially on him and on how he interacted with the rest of the FO despite being the guy in charge.