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Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen?

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Better defender this season

Zach
10
24%
Lauri
26
63%
Benny
5
12%
 
Total votes: 41

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Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#1 » by sco » Tue Aug 6, 2019 12:55 pm

After health, the need for one of these guys to significantly improve to become above average, IMO will have the biggest impact as to whether we make the playoffs.

Zach made reference to this being a focus area for him.

Thad Young noted he'll be schooling Lauri.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#2 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Aug 6, 2019 1:03 pm

Damn good poll. Zach has talked the good game...
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#3 » by PaKii94 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 1:13 pm

I think lauri is underrated as a defender since he's a poor rim protector as a 7 footer. If you look at his defense as a 7 foot wing I think it looks a lot better
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#4 » by PaKii94 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 4:22 pm

I think the better question to ask is 'who will improve their defense more'

For that I think it's lavine. He has a lot more room to grow with technique and focus. For lauri, he is what he is. He can improve on the nuances but I don't see him becoming a rim protector which is where he's deficient in
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#5 » by DuckIII » Tue Aug 6, 2019 4:41 pm

I reject the premise that Lauri and Zach are in any way comparable as defenders. Lauri can improve and I wish he would have improved more last year than he did, but Lauri is already a competent defender.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#6 » by Showtime23 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 5:19 pm

PaKii94 wrote:I think lauri is underrated as a defender since he's a poor rim protector as a 7 footer. If you look at his defense as a 7 foot wing I think it looks a lot better


lauri simply tries to be the best defender he can be. very encouraging sign for a prospect who sees both sides equally.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#7 » by coldfish » Tue Aug 6, 2019 5:42 pm

There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#8 » by TyrusRose2425 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 5:52 pm

coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.

Not related to the topic, but um... Carles Puyol? Fabio Cannavaro? Javier Mascherano?
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#9 » by FriedRise » Tue Aug 6, 2019 6:05 pm

I think both are plenty athletic to become an average to above average on-ball defender. And they both are certainly willing to play defense.. the effort is there so that's a good start.

But help defense? Not so much. So whoever can improve their defensive IQ will take the next step in that area. And I think unless you spend your summer in the film room studying plays, you probably can't improve that skill all that much in one off-season.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#10 » by Proven_Winner » Tue Aug 6, 2019 6:54 pm

coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.


I agree though I think Lauri deserves more credit for his help defense. I mean you’re essentially giving him blame for someone like Zach not holding his man. I agree it’s probably the worst part of his defense but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to boozer bad. Lauri gives the effort and he has gotten plenty of blocks being the help defender.

I think both guys put the effort in but just get lost during the possession and end up scrambling. I agree though that last line of help defense hurts the most but I’m a bit more confident in Lauri as a player I think having Wendell and Otto with him only helps his defense. That’s what the team is for you pickup for others weaknesses not even superstar players play the best defense all around.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#11 » by coldfish » Tue Aug 6, 2019 7:15 pm

Proven_Winner wrote:
coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.


I agree though I think Lauri deserves more credit for his help defense. I mean you’re essentially giving him blame for someone like Zach not holding his man. I agree it’s probably the worst part of his defense but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to boozer bad. Lauri gives the effort and he has gotten plenty of blocks being the help defender.

I think both guys put the effort in but just get lost during the possession and end up scrambling. I agree though that last line of help defense hurts the most but I’m a bit more confident in Lauri as a player I think having Wendell and Otto with him only helps his defense. That’s what the team is for you pickup for others weaknesses not even superstar players play the best defense all around.


There were times last year where plays were happening right behind Lauri and he didn't even turn his head. Other times he would watch the play happen and he wouldn't even move towards the rim. The difference between him and Wendell was stark where WCJ was great at trying to stop layups, to the point where he was picking up fouls left and right.

Honestly, I think Lauri is actually worse than Boozer as far as help. Boozer would move and do this matador thing. Lauri didn't even move. It was Eddy Curryesque.

In today's NBA, perimeter guys really can't stop their men from driving consistently. At best, they can funnel and take away the inside or outside but they depend on that big helping to stop the play. The secondary help is where Lavine falls down. When Lauri leaves his man a perimeter guy is supposed to help the helper. Lavine is awful at it but the first and most important step is Lauri coming down and he rarely does it.

Watch this year when its Thad and Wendell. Both are great help defenders and its going to be obvious what Lauri isn't doing.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#12 » by coldfish » Tue Aug 6, 2019 7:27 pm

TyrusRose2425 wrote:
coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.

Not related to the topic, but um... Carles Puyol? Fabio Cannavaro? Javier Mascherano?


Lol. I stand corrected.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#13 » by PaKii94 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 8:06 pm

Proven_Winner wrote:
coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.


I agree though I think Lauri deserves more credit for his help defense. I mean you’re essentially giving him blame for someone like Zach not holding his man. I agree it’s probably the worst part of his defense but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to boozer bad. Lauri gives the effort and he has gotten plenty of blocks being the help defender.

I think both guys put the effort in but just get lost during the possession and end up scrambling. I agree though that last line of help defense hurts the most but I’m a bit more confident in Lauri as a player I think having Wendell and Otto with him only helps his defense. That’s what the team is for you pickup for others weaknesses not even superstar players play the best defense all around.


The last part is the key I think. Lauri is never going to be the player who ELEVATES a defense but I think if you put him next to those type of elevators (I think WCJ can definitely be one) he can bring his defense to above average. It's when you put him next to the portis/parkers of the world where it just comes crashing down. It's a sum of the parts... in the negative direction.

coldfish wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.


I agree though I think Lauri deserves more credit for his help defense. I mean you’re essentially giving him blame for someone like Zach not holding his man. I agree it’s probably the worst part of his defense but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to boozer bad. Lauri gives the effort and he has gotten plenty of blocks being the help defender.

I think both guys put the effort in but just get lost during the possession and end up scrambling. I agree though that last line of help defense hurts the most but I’m a bit more confident in Lauri as a player I think having Wendell and Otto with him only helps his defense. That’s what the team is for you pickup for others weaknesses not even superstar players play the best defense all around.


There were times last year where plays were happening right behind Lauri and he didn't even turn his head. Other times he would watch the play happen and he wouldn't even move towards the rim. The difference between him and Wendell was stark where WCJ was great at trying to stop layups, to the point where he was picking up fouls left and right.

Honestly, I think Lauri is actually worse than Boozer as far as help. Boozer would move and do this matador thing. Lauri didn't even move. It was Eddy Curryesque.

In today's NBA, perimeter guys really can't stop their men from driving consistently. At best, they can funnel and take away the inside or outside but they depend on that big helping to stop the play. The secondary help is where Lavine falls down. When Lauri leaves his man a perimeter guy is supposed to help the helper. Lavine is awful at it but the first and most important step is Lauri coming down and he rarely does it.

Watch this year when its Thad and Wendell. Both are great help defenders and its going to be obvious what Lauri isn't doing.


I think a lot of the way Lauri plays defense has to do with him playing guard/wing defense all his life and much less big man defense. With wing defense, in a general sense the objective is staying in front of your man and help defense is much less emphasized. Big man defense adds the weak side help defense to a much greater extent. However, I think he is learning that. it's not a 'dumb' deficiency that I think Lavine has (which is why I question how much Lavine can improve his defense). It's more of technique being played. As I mentioned above the deficiency is heightened playing next to Portis/Parker
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#14 » by coldfish » Tue Aug 6, 2019 8:49 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
I think a lot of the way Lauri plays defense has to do with him playing guard/wing defense all his life and much less big man defense. With wing defense, in a general sense the objective is staying in front of your man and help defense is much less emphasized. Big man defense adds the weak side help defense to a much greater extent. However, I think he is learning that. it's not a 'dumb' deficiency that I think Lavine has (which is why I question how much Lavine can improve his defense). It's more of technique being played. As I mentioned above the deficiency is heightened playing next to Portis/Parker


I'm not sure if Lavine is dumb. I just think that up until this point, he doesn't care about defense. We shall see this year if he actually tries and still does poorly or if it gets markedly better.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#15 » by PaKii94 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 9:02 pm

coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
I think a lot of the way Lauri plays defense has to do with him playing guard/wing defense all his life and much less big man defense. With wing defense, in a general sense the objective is staying in front of your man and help defense is much less emphasized. Big man defense adds the weak side help defense to a much greater extent. However, I think he is learning that. it's not a 'dumb' deficiency that I think Lavine has (which is why I question how much Lavine can improve his defense). It's more of technique being played. As I mentioned above the deficiency is heightened playing next to Portis/Parker


I'm not sure if Lavine is dumb. I just think that up until this point, he doesn't care about defense. We shall see this year if he actually tries and still does poorly or if it gets markedly better.



Okay dumb might be a too strong of a word. It implies a mental hindrance (I think Dunn & Blakeney fall squarely into that category though). Lavine is just basketball illiterate (or literate deficient? idk it's lacking). He came into the league very raw and since then he's been on bad teams asked to chuck shots. Like you said, defense wasn't a priority.

Last year I did see marked improvement in Lavine's overall game once Boylen did take over. I was encouraged by it. Maybe the crawl/walk before running did help. Hopefully the improvements continue next season. I think learning the nuances of defense can only come with time and game practice along with a focus/dedication to it. Hopefully Lauri & lavine are ready for that challenge.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#16 » by TheFinishSniper » Tue Aug 6, 2019 9:02 pm

Lauri is 7 foot tall guard not big man. And he is pretty good at defending at perimeter. Thing is he is not a big man and he is judged as big man because he is again 7 foot tall.
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#17 » by Proven_Winner » Tue Aug 6, 2019 10:43 pm

coldfish wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
coldfish wrote:There are certain skill/position combinations that are important to any team in any sport. You can't have short center backs in soccer. A quarterback who is mobile, smart, accurate but has a bad arm is going to be a liability because of that one flaw.

In basketball, your big men need to play help defense. Its critical to success.

Lavine is a bad man defender and he is a bad help defender. Can't defend pick and rolls and doesn't communicate. Overall, he just sucks at defense. Lauri is an above average man defender. He sucks as a help guy though. That's a pretty big problem. Like Boozer and Eddy Curry before him, his poor help defense hurts the whole team.

Which one will do more damage to the Bulls next year? I'm going to vote Markannen. I think Lavine with a little effort won't hurt the team as bad as Lauri.


I agree though I think Lauri deserves more credit for his help defense. I mean you’re essentially giving him blame for someone like Zach not holding his man. I agree it’s probably the worst part of his defense but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to boozer bad. Lauri gives the effort and he has gotten plenty of blocks being the help defender.

I think both guys put the effort in but just get lost during the possession and end up scrambling. I agree though that last line of help defense hurts the most but I’m a bit more confident in Lauri as a player I think having Wendell and Otto with him only helps his defense. That’s what the team is for you pickup for others weaknesses not even superstar players play the best defense all around.


There were times last year where plays were happening right behind Lauri and he didn't even turn his head. Other times he would watch the play happen and he wouldn't even move towards the rim. The difference between him and Wendell was stark where WCJ was great at trying to stop layups, to the point where he was picking up fouls left and right.

Honestly, I think Lauri is actually worse than Boozer as far as help. Boozer would move and do this matador thing. Lauri didn't even move. It was Eddy Curryesque.

In today's NBA, perimeter guys really can't stop their men from driving consistently. At best, they can funnel and take away the inside or outside but they depend on that big helping to stop the play. The secondary help is where Lavine falls down. When Lauri leaves his man a perimeter guy is supposed to help the helper. Lavine is awful at it but the first and most important step is Lauri coming down and he rarely does it.

Watch this year when its Thad and Wendell. Both are great help defenders and its going to be obvious what Lauri isn't doing.


I think we have two different memories of these guys. Boozer didn’t do anything help wise I rarely remember him getting even a block on help defense. Dude wouldn’t even try as in not even trying to move and he was surrounded with good defenders and guys that communicated. Lauri on the other hand I’ve seen come over late and yes sometimes even watched the play go by but most importantly he affected the shots even with late help because he’s such a big guy. Lauri is also younger but didn’t have nearly the help boozer did on defense.

And again you brought up how lavine’s Defense hurt Lauri but then say that Lauri’s part is the most important so who do you blame? You feel it’s Lauri because a big should help to stop penetration but then if LaVine can’t stop his man nor help Lauri stop his guy from getting a free look after the help then I think that falls mostly on LaVine. I think we both agree though that Lauri needs to improve as a help defender I just disagree that he’s boozer bad on help defense considering Lauri at least provides more help than just telling and watching and when he does get involved good things happen.

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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#18 » by khufure » Thu Aug 8, 2019 4:06 pm

Went with the "neither" option (Benny).
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#19 » by MrSparkle » Thu Aug 8, 2019 4:54 pm

IMO they need to keep it simple. A bad defender over-exerting defensively is a waste of energy. Bold for emphasis: I will be very angry if Boylen/Pax push these guys to over-exert defensively. Because you know it? They'll get injured and their offense will suffer. It's that simple. We need them to take better shots and shoot better percentages - work on offensive efficiency. Not defense.

I don't know why someone hasn't just made Kyle Korver the guide for all struggling defenders. What was he exactly doing between the Thibs and Hawks tenures that kept him on the floor with a neutral defensive statistic? Sure as hell didn't look like a guy trying to play lock-down defense and laterally challenge the Kembas and Irvings of the league. To me it's just about positioning and communication. If you get switched onto a quickness match-up, there's only so much you can do. In Korver (or Dunleavy's) case, they couldn't do anything against a fast guard. You could see it highlighted in the playoffs.

But Korver could gauge when a guy was going for shot and time his challenge correctly. Meanwhile, he put in the effort to stay on his man without sagging, chasing through the screens. But he also worked with his teams' traps. Funneled drives to the left. But in the end, you know what Kyle did? Provide a guaranteed instant 3P threat every night of the year. And if challenged, he could also make a smart pass.

Doug McDermott was getting crucified for his defense... but wouldn't he have worked out OK if his offense wasn't so bad? He was a huge net negative on offense.

Let's be honest -- at no point in their careers will Lauri or Zach be able to laterally keep up with elite dribblers. I'm not worried about that. I'd like to mainly see their offense improve.

Lauri's percentages are pretty bad. 43% FG and 36% from 3P. For comparison, Horford registered 53% FG and 36% 3P last season, while also being a superior defender. So for a guy whose strength is "shooting", Lauri needs to improve his shooting - period.

And Zach just needs to develop off-the-ball and PnR skills. The guy's shooting percentages and stats compare well to Beal, Harden, Klay, etc. but with the eye-test, you can tell that unlike those players, Zach lacks catch-and-shoot fundamentals and PG skills. He doesn't create simple baskets for teammates; not even for himself. Makes it harder than it needs to be.

Which brings me back to the Jamal Crawford, Nick Young, Aaron Brooks, Ben Gordon, Brandon Knight (pre-ACL) style comparisons, although like I've said before, he has a higher ceiling due to athletic and attitude advantages over all those guys. Again, can a guy re-invent himself 5 years into his career? I don't know. That's a tall order. But so long he's a Bull, I'd like to see Boylen and him try to atleast develop his playmaking, with Harden, Beal, Curry and Bird as examples of high-volume shooters who create(d).

To hell with his defense. Let me see Zach become automatic from the arc with a hand in his face, and be able to run a PnR with anybody in his front-court. And similarly with Lauri - I want to see him make size-mismatch post-ups look easy (which he's been totally unable to take advantage of), and make teams pay if anybody sags an inch off his 3P positioning.

I do think that Lauri's individual defense is better, but the impact of a mediocre PF switcher is greater than a sieve at SG. Therefore I go with Benny. I've said it before - I don't love this core because it's built on 2 sieves (one at a very crucial position PF), in a league where Drays, Durants, and Pascals can defend PGs as well as big men.

Not surprised at all if Thad outperforms Lauri in the A-B comparisons of net impact at the PF position... IMO it's kind of important that Lauri spends a decent amount of time at C (assuming he doesn't get bullied in the paint).
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Re: Player Comparison: Better defender this season Lavine vs. Markkanen? 

Post#20 » by erlim » Thu Aug 8, 2019 5:33 pm

Lavine has never packed a shot into the GOAT's face.
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