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Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine?

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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#61 » by bearadonisdna » Thu Aug 8, 2019 12:02 am

Betta Bulleavit wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:My eye test tells me that he’s a below average defender. The metrics say that he’s a putrid defender. That’s where the disconnect is for me. And that’s particularly troubling when such metrics allows certain people to ascertain that he’s somehow a net negative player because all of the magical advanced metrics say so.

See, here’s my issue with the advanced stats. There are certain team oriented aspects of the game that are hard to account for when developing these advanced stats. If one asks how can any stat that is team based be linked back to an individual player, the quick answer is “oh, well this stat accounts for that.” If one asks how, we get crickets. I’ve taken a fair amount of statistics coursework and I work in a field (Pricing) that revolves around lots of statistics and algorithms. Whenever I try to find out what these advanced stats are based on and the algorithms associated with them, I find nothing. Its like some secret recipe that we’re told to trust but never see. I’m sorry. I can’t do that.


Also i feel zachs acl recovery will have him playing more tentative in some aspects and I'm sure there's some adv stat that will cook him for this

Zach’s biggest issue defensively is that he is weak in the very area that these defensive metrics hone in on, team defense. He’s actually pretty formidable as a man defender. He generally stays in front of his guy. He contests shots. He’s not losing his man all that often. But in terms of help defense and such, he doesn’t always seem to be cognizant of what’s going on outside of his man to man matchup and these advanced stats make you pay big time for that. I do find it encouraging that he called this out as a focus area for him and given his work ethic, I feel that this is something that will improve going forward. We shall see though.


To me I think improving lateral movement is one of the keys to playing better defense.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#62 » by Mark K » Thu Aug 8, 2019 12:24 am

Showtime23 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:My question is this. What exactly is a winning player? Guys that play on winning teams? Sure. I get that. But how many examples have we seen of guys that were dubbed as “winners” when they were on great teams but later went into non winning situations only to become a shell of themselves. Kobe was a winner. But how much winning did he do when the teams around him were bad. Same with Wade. What about Ben Wallace? JR Smith was a decent contributor on some good Cavs teams. Does that make him a winner?

Now, I know that there are a handful of players that can single handedly lift a mediocre team to greatness. But generally speaking, being a winner has more to do with the team than any one individual. And in the case of Zach, he could definitely stand to do more to help his team win. But he’s been in some pretty jacked up situations that weren’t exactly conducive to winning. Hell, this dude really doesn’t know much else other than rebuilds. That’s just the hand that he’s been dealt.


Being on a bad team doesn't mean you can't make winning plays, nor does being on a winning team mean you're free from being classed a losing player, or any other adjective you want to use.

Ultimately, it comes down to skill and basketball IQ. The latter is something that Zach has struggled with at times, be it with turnovers, defense, shot selection etc.

That doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or can't improve, but he's been inconsistent in those aspects of the game, which doesn't surprise a sound and trust worthy player like Fox gets in over him.


He cant improve if he has low iq. Who cares abt athleticism if you dont even know what your weaknesses are and only play one side of the ball. You can literally argue JR was better on the Cavs since he played decent D and knew his role as a 3rd option.


Zach has meanfully improved every season he's been in the league.

Yes, he can improve.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#63 » by Dominater » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:22 am

cjbulls wrote:What is the difference between Mitchell and LaVine? I wonder if they swapped places what the narrative would be for each.


Zach is more comparable and similiar to Booker than he is Mitchell
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#64 » by NecessaryEvil » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:49 am

Looked like Kobe lite (without the ball hogging) the 2nd half of the season

Save it for the season baby Mamba
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#65 » by darmani » Thu Aug 8, 2019 9:30 am

contestedlayups wrote:It's interesting that both Lavine and Booker were both left off this team, and as far as I remember Booker didn't receive an invite as well. Is it a wakeup call to Booker also? I would have to think the lack of team success of both their teams last year with both those players in prominent roles as lead scorers would be enough of a wakeup call, and that the Team USA snubs for both of them is minor in the grand scheme of things. I think both Booker and Lavine have solid seasons with their respective clubs and that both teams are better than they fared last year.

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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#66 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 8, 2019 11:51 am

If LaVine didn't quietly turn this down, then it's somewhat of a negative that he didn't get asked. I'm glad he's not going though. I would much rather have him train and work on being healthy. It's not like this select team has a whole bunch of people to recruit on it.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#67 » by cjbulls » Thu Aug 8, 2019 2:49 pm

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:What is the difference between Mitchell and LaVine? I wonder if they swapped places what the narrative would be for each.


They are similar offensively, but . . .

Zach's best DBPM is -1.7 (last year); Mitchell has been at -.2 in each of his two years.

Zach has never had a positive overall BPM; Mitchell has been positive in each of his two years.

Zach has consistently given away more on defense than he has added on offense.


Actually Zach is better offensively if you go by the numbers, but your defensive numbers point out why all this is flawed.

Mitchell has a better DBPM. Guess who is #1 in DBPM: Rudy Gobert. Guess who is #15 in DBPM: Derrick Favors. ALL of Mitchell's top 20 5-man unit lineups feature either Gobert (16/20 alone feature Gobert) or Favors, including the most commonly used lineup featuring both Favors and Gobert.

Must be nice to have those guys backing you up. Do you think maybe that has an influence on the #s?

Now to be fair, because they're a defense oriented team, he bears a larger offensive role which hurts his efficiency a bit, but he's still far off from Zach there.

So again I ask, I wonder what the narrative would be if they switched places?
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#68 » by DuckIII » Thu Aug 8, 2019 4:49 pm

darmani wrote:
contestedlayups wrote:It's interesting that both Lavine and Booker were both left off this team, and as far as I remember Booker didn't receive an invite as well. Is it a wakeup call to Booker also? I would have to think the lack of team success of both their teams last year with both those players in prominent roles as lead scorers would be enough of a wakeup call, and that the Team USA snubs for both of them is minor in the grand scheme of things. I think both Booker and Lavine have solid seasons with their respective clubs and that both teams are better than they fared last year.

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I’m not surprised. And I like Booker. But his reputation as being a step above several other shooting guards, including Lavine, is a curiousity. It just goes to show the power of perception and what a powerful force it is in the NBA.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#69 » by League Circles » Thu Aug 8, 2019 8:52 pm

It's a good sign that help D is what they need to work on most. Most players probably get better at that until they're at least 30 years old. If you can't play man D by age 25 you'll probably never be able to.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#70 » by dice » Thu Aug 8, 2019 9:46 pm

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:What is the difference between Mitchell and LaVine? I wonder if they swapped places what the narrative would be for each.


They are similar offensively, but . . .

Zach's best DBPM is -1.7 (last year); Mitchell has been at -.2 in each of his two years.

Zach has never had a positive overall BPM; Mitchell has been positive in each of his two years.

Zach has consistently given away more on defense than he has added on offense.


Actually Zach is better offensively if you go by the numbers, but your defensive numbers point out why all this is flawed.

Mitchell has a better DBPM. Guess who is #1 in DBPM: Rudy Gobert. Guess who is #15 in DBPM: Derrick Favors. ALL of Mitchell's top 20 5-man unit lineups feature either Gobert (16/20 alone feature Gobert) or Favors, including the most commonly used lineup featuring both Favors and Gobert.

Must be nice to have those guys backing you up. Do you think maybe that has an influence on the #s?

Now to be fair, because they're a defense oriented team, he bears a larger offensive role which hurts his efficiency a bit, but he's still far off from Zach there.

So again I ask, I wonder what the narrative would be if they switched places?

RPM is the only widely available stat that meaningfully addresses defense. it accounts for teammates and opponents. and Mitchell is way ahead of lavine in that as well
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wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#71 » by cjbulls » Thu Aug 8, 2019 11:31 pm

dice wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
They are similar offensively, but . . .

Zach's best DBPM is -1.7 (last year); Mitchell has been at -.2 in each of his two years.

Zach has never had a positive overall BPM; Mitchell has been positive in each of his two years.

Zach has consistently given away more on defense than he has added on offense.


Actually Zach is better offensively if you go by the numbers, but your defensive numbers point out why all this is flawed.

Mitchell has a better DBPM. Guess who is #1 in DBPM: Rudy Gobert. Guess who is #15 in DBPM: Derrick Favors. ALL of Mitchell's top 20 5-man unit lineups feature either Gobert (16/20 alone feature Gobert) or Favors, including the most commonly used lineup featuring both Favors and Gobert.

Must be nice to have those guys backing you up. Do you think maybe that has an influence on the #s?

Now to be fair, because they're a defense oriented team, he bears a larger offensive role which hurts his efficiency a bit, but he's still far off from Zach there.

So again I ask, I wonder what the narrative would be if they switched places?

RPM is the only widely available stat that meaningfully addresses defense. it accounts for teammates and opponents. and Mitchell is way ahead of lavine in that as well


It doesn’t account for teammates when you always play with the same teammates. He always plays with Gobert, Favors or both. Look at his lineups.

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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#72 » by Ccwatercraft » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:08 am

Betta Bulleavit wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
Being on a bad team doesn't mean you can't make winning plays, nor does being on a winning team mean you're free from being classed a losing player, or any other adjective you want to use.

Ultimately, it comes down to skill and basketball IQ. The latter is something that Zach has struggled with at times, be it with turnovers, defense, shot selection etc.

That doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or can't improve, but he's been inconsistent in those aspects of the game, which doesn't surprise a sound and trust worthy player like Fox gets in over him.


He cant improve if he has low iq. Who cares abt athleticism if you dont even know what your weaknesses are and only play one side of the ball. You can literally argue JR was better on the Cavs since he played decent D and knew his role as a 3rd option.

Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago where there was an article/interview with Zach where he talked at length about defense and how he wanted to become better as a help defender and how that would be a point of emphasis next season? He’s plenty aware. He just needs to get better. The bottom line is that some people just don’t like him as a player but they find it hard to really reason that. So they come up with unsubstantiated reasoning such as bbiq, not being a winner and other stuff because they can’t back up that he’s a poor player via core stats. That’s how I see it.


I recalled something along those lines about defense as well.

Zack has an amazing ability to get his own shot and his prime is ahead of him & team's only get a few opportunities to exploit top talent to produce wins.

Anyone suggesting that he is a lost cause with his faults is really selling him short. We have them for three more years minimum unless traded, enjoy it, hes good and can become great.

The surrounding cast for this next season should be a tremendous help as well.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#73 » by Ccwatercraft » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:11 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:Looked like Kobe lite (without the ball hogging) the 2nd half of the season

Save it for the season baby Mamba


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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#74 » by bearadonisdna » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:41 am

Ccwatercraft wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
He cant improve if he has low iq. Who cares abt athleticism if you dont even know what your weaknesses are and only play one side of the ball. You can literally argue JR was better on the Cavs since he played decent D and knew his role as a 3rd option.

Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago where there was an article/interview with Zach where he talked at length about defense and how he wanted to become better as a help defender and how that would be a point of emphasis next season? He’s plenty aware. He just needs to get better. The bottom line is that some people just don’t like him as a player but they find it hard to really reason that. So they come up with unsubstantiated reasoning such as bbiq, not being a winner and other stuff because they can’t back up that he’s a poor player via core stats. That’s how I see it.


I recalled something along those lines about defense as well.

Zack has an amazing ability to get his own shot and his prime is ahead of him & team's only get a few opportunities to exploit top talent to produce wins.

Anyone suggesting that he is a lost cause with his faults is really selling him short. We have them for three more years minimum unless traded, enjoy it, hes good and can become great.

The surrounding cast for this next season should be a tremendous help as well.


Zach is currently the bulls best player. It's hard to go without criticism anywhere.
The trade Jimmy narrative was distinctive as he was one of the best players on the team.

The negative analytics are annoying but it's typically the crutch when ppl want to dismiss traditonal stats.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#75 » by Showtime23 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:09 am

dougthonus wrote:If LaVine didn't quietly turn this down, then it's somewhat of a negative that he didn't get asked. I'm glad he's not going though. I would much rather have him train and work on being healthy. It's not like this select team has a whole bunch of people to recruit on it.


Its not like Lavine had a choice whether he could be on the team or not. Simply, he wasnt good enough to make it since his scoring only mentality only causes harm in the select team. 100 out of 100 people would pick Mitchell bc he can do play making, defense, scoring at the same time.
Everyone including non Bulls fan knows Lavine can get his 25 pts.
The question is the team really benefiting by letting him shoot over 20 times and play 30 mins?
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#76 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:12 am

Yeah, I'm actually a fan of Zach's, but even the best of players aren't above critisim. Hell, look at how much critisim Harden gets, and I'd bet that many Bulls fans would give an arm and leg for him to be on the Bulls.

As much improvement as Zach has made, he still has a long ways to go before he is considered a cornerstone player, and that's something I believe that Zach wants to eventually become. He isn't without the talents to become that player, it's whether he can make those improvements, which effectively means that he has lots of room to grow.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#77 » by dougthonus » Fri Aug 9, 2019 12:33 pm

Showtime23 wrote:Its not like Lavine had a choice whether he could be on the team or not. Simply, he wasnt good enough to make it since his scoring only mentality only causes harm in the select team. 100 out of 100 people would pick Mitchell bc he can do play making, defense, scoring at the same time.


LaVine vs Mitchell

LaVine averaged more assists per minute than Mitchell last year, so I don't think Mitchell has much of a leg up on LaVine when it comes to play making and while he scored a half point more per minute than LaVine, he did so at a less efficient rate using two and a half more shots to do so.

He's a worse shooter from two, three, and the free throw line.

Maybe Mitchell is a significantly better defender than Zach (whom has been poor on that end for sure). I haven't watched much of Mitchell to comment one way or the other.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#78 » by Ice Man » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:29 pm

I don't care what Team USA does. Its thoughts won't tell me anything new about Zach. He improved across the board last year, and went from being a flashy but ineffective player to being pretty good, and some nights very good. If he steps it up again this year he will be a star by any standards.

I used to dog him, but not any more.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#79 » by Dieselbound&Down » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:23 pm

I hope this gives Lavine a chip. I'm also glad he's not going.

Lavine has noticeably evolved. Another improvement like he made last year and he'll be a star. And the team will poised to have a nice year.
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Re: Left Off of Depleted Team USA: A Wakeup Call for LaVine? 

Post#80 » by dice » Fri Aug 9, 2019 7:18 pm

cjbulls wrote:
dice wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Actually Zach is better offensively if you go by the numbers, but your defensive numbers point out why all this is flawed.

Mitchell has a better DBPM. Guess who is #1 in DBPM: Rudy Gobert. Guess who is #15 in DBPM: Derrick Favors. ALL of Mitchell's top 20 5-man unit lineups feature either Gobert (16/20 alone feature Gobert) or Favors, including the most commonly used lineup featuring both Favors and Gobert.

Must be nice to have those guys backing you up. Do you think maybe that has an influence on the #s?

Now to be fair, because they're a defense oriented team, he bears a larger offensive role which hurts his efficiency a bit, but he's still far off from Zach there.

So again I ask, I wonder what the narrative would be if they switched places?

RPM is the only widely available stat that meaningfully addresses defense. it accounts for teammates and opponents. and Mitchell is way ahead of lavine in that as well


It doesn’t account for teammates when you always play with the same teammates.

yes, yes it does. it's exactly what it does. nobody ALWAYS plays with the same teammates. one season of RPM is not very meaningful, but multiple seasons for a starter are

there's a reason why Mitchell's DRPM is not even close to gobert's. if it was all about primary lineup their numbers would be very similar
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy

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