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NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense

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NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#1 » by MalagaBulls » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:48 pm

A lot of good info with stats but tve main part is below

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/better-offense-starts-better-passing-and-thats-where-bulls-must-focus

Let's start with the simple numbers (all of the numbers will be what they did under Jim Boylen beginning Dec. 3, unless otherwise noted).
The Bulls averaged 98.64 possessions, giving them the eighth slowest pace in basketball. They averaged 22.0 assists per game, fourth fewest in the NBA, and 14.1 turnovers per game, 12th most in the NBA.
Now let's dig a little deeper. The Bulls averaged 280.0 passes per game, the fourth fewest in the NBA (they averaged 295.3 under Hoiberg, which ranked 18th in the NBA; two years ago they averaged 302.0 passes per game, 15th most in the NBA). This is obviously a pace-dependent statistic - the slower you play, the fewer possessions you have; the fewer possessions you have, the fewer opportunities you have to make passes. But consider that the seven teams that played slower than the Bulls last season averaged 301.2 passes per game, and all were above the 280.0 mark. In fact, the Memphis Grizzlies were 28th in pace and first in passes per game! Going slow doesn't necessarily mean passing less.
Fewer passes meant less ball movement. Less ball movement meant more time for defenses to adjust. One of this author's favorite statistics is the secondary assist, otherwise known as the hockey assist. It's a testament to ball movement and a statistic that the eventual NBA champion has led the league in each of the last three seasons and four of the last six; the 2015 Spurs and 2016 Warriors led the league in their respective years but didn't win the title
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#2 » by transplant » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:00 pm

Yeah, that’s bad. I always figured that the lower your overall talent level, the more you want to move the ball. While you risk the turnover, you’ve got to try to get high-percentage opportunities.

Players need to be coached better and they need to be coachable.


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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#3 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:22 pm

I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#4 » by dice » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:48 pm

the pace STATISTIC is stupid. playing at a faster pace statistically does not mean you're passing more. in fact, passing more lengthens the possession and SLOWS your pace. want to maximize your statistical pace?

1) take a lot of quick jumpers. this both shortens the length of your possession and results in a low FG%/long rebounds, allowing the other team transition opportunities (which also increases YOUR pace because it gives you the ball back faster!)
2) foolishly and constantly gamble for steals defensively

lots of physical and ball movement is what people THINK a high pace is. and it's certainly effective. but that's not what the useless pace statistic measures
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wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#5 » by League Circles » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:49 pm

It's difficult to imagine that the stat "pace" is taken seriously by anyone to try to show what they think it shows that it very much does not show.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#6 » by Hangtime84 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:21 pm

Looks like 40+ win season for us unless injuries occur
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aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#7 » by Evil_Headband » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:50 pm

dougthonus wrote:I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.


Thanks. Whenever someone talks about how bad the Bulls were last year, I think about the irrelevance of some of those second half of the season lineups. Nice to see a breakdown of these minutes.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#8 » by TheFinishSniper » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:36 pm

They need to play good basketball to improve. Who would have said...
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#9 » by InsideInfo » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:27 pm

dougthonus wrote:I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.


And we still finished with a better record than the Knicks, Suns, and Cavs :lol:

Seriously how were there 3 teams worse than us? No all stars, our top pick injured, fired our coach mid season.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#10 » by Hangtime84 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:33 pm

New York tank was hard. Same for the Cavs. I cannot say the same thing about the Suns.
Jcool0 wrote:
aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


Play Zach LaVine at point committee...
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#11 » by InsideInfo » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:58 pm

Hangtime84 wrote:New York tank was hard. Same for the Cavs. I cannot say the same thing about the Suns.


Frankly after seeing those stats I'm a little impressed with what we did post all star.

We finished 8-16 with a higher winning percentage....a pace that was 7 wins better than pre all star break. Plus we were 5-6 with Porter in the lineup during that stretch.

Late offseason. Looking for something to be optimistic about lol
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#12 » by DuckIII » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm

dougthonus wrote:I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.


Agree. Add to that, players like this have less incentive to move the ball because they are not playing to win. They are playing to get a contract and as such are auditioning for 30 teams every night. Not 1.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#13 » by FriedRise » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:52 pm

dice wrote:1) take a lot of quick jumpers. this both shortens the length of your possession and results in a low FG%/long rebounds, allowing the other team transition opportunities (which also increases YOUR pace because it gives you the ball back faster!)
2) foolishly and constantly gamble for steals defensively


Found Hoiberg’s playbook.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#14 » by Proven_Winner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:56 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.


Agree. Add to that, players like this have less incentive to move the ball because they are not playing to win. They are playing to get a contract and as such are auditioning for 30 teams every night. Not 1.


Sounds a lot like holiday which reminds me why the hell did we want him back?
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#15 » by contestedlayups » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:14 pm

The Bulls don't pass much you say? Yes, a major part of it is due to the players they were playing down the stretch. Also, players like Antonio Blakeney getting major minutes don't necessarily contribute to a positive passing statistic, and the same goes for Jabari Parker and Bobby Portis. While Blakeney will still be on the team, the minutes that will be available to him will be substantially less than last year due to roster upgrades. Parker and Portis are gone, as is Robin Lopez, which resulted in post-ups in which Lopez didn't really pass out of much.

Also, word on the street is that Boylen's contract is a 4 year, $22 mil deal. Just quoting my sources who work with the G-league team, and whom are not pleased with this deal. $22 mil for this guy...
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#16 » by Hugi Mancura » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:21 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't how you can take anything from any Boylen statistics. I just did this post all-star break, because with basketball reference presently not showing last year's stats, it was the easiest way I could break it down.

Post all star break out of a possible 5760 minutes, 3406 were played by:
Ryan Arcidiacano
Shaq Harrison
Jakaar Sampson
Walt Lemon Jr
Wayne Seldon
Antonio Blakeney
Timothe Luwawy Cabarrot
Brandon Sampson
Christiano Felicio
Rawle Awkins

Roughly 60% of those minutes were by guys that would generally not expect to be rotation players this year for any team in the NBA (possibly Arcidiacono makes low end rotation player as 9th or 10th man).

So if you are playing 60% of your minutes with sub-replacement level players, then yes, I think it's likely that your stats will look bad in every area. I think this is pretty independent of the coach or system in place.

I guess technically the Bulls need to "improve" in a lot of areas, but that improvement isn't really improvement by players, it is swapping out 60% of your minutes for guys that effectively can't play for guys who can.


Agree. Add to that, players like this have less incentive to move the ball because they are not playing to win. They are playing to get a contract and as such are auditioning for 30 teams every night. Not 1.


I do agree on that players who don't normally play much might have an motivation to show their skills and thus trying to be more selfish. But if we look it other way. What would happen if Popovitch would be in this situation? Would that g-league team under him play ball moving offense? Yes they would. These players who normally don't get much playing time know they must look like they listen the coach and do what he wishes, because if they as a role players look like they don't care about coaches they know they will never play in NBA again. So Bulls bench players playing this non passing offense also gives indication that Bulls coaching staff doesn't see ball moving offense to be the key to Bulls offense.

But in all honestly Bulls key players are not great passers or even good passers. Lavine's have never had high assist number and neither have Lauri. Both are scorers or finishers. Also Bulls other guard have not shown fluent passing abilities, so it is not a really a surprise Bulls are low on this category. This means pick&roll doesn't create too many assists. Other way to have high passing numbers is to have a ball moving playing style and so far with Boylen this haven't been happening. Ball movement is how GSW and Spurs usually create their passing numbers. So don't see this improving that much, well maybe get out of the bottom 10, but does it really have to? You can score the ball several ways in basketball.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#17 » by Swuul » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:04 am

Hugi Mancura wrote:Lavine's have never had high assist number and neither have Lauri.

I don't know how far back that "never" reaches, but Lauri always played as PG up to high-school, and was known for his smooth passes as well as his smooth shot. It is true in college he was pigeon-holed to be just a 3p shooter, and that in Bulls he hasn't had lots of possibilities to pass, but I am not sure if that counts as "never".
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#18 » by sco » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:28 pm

I don't see any issue with this team's passing coming into the season.

The FO did a great job of eliminating ball-dominant players in favor of unselfish guys. The flipside, which I've seen too, is having guys who don't want the ball. The most ball dominant guys on the team are Zach and Coby, and those are the guys you want with the ball in their hands the most. I don't see either guy as a real ISO guy. Zach made big strides to improve as a distributor last year.
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#19 » by Hugi Mancura » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:46 pm

Swuul wrote:
Hugi Mancura wrote:Lavine's have never had high assist number and neither have Lauri.

I don't know how far back that "never" reaches, but Lauri always played as PG up to high-school, and was known for his smooth passes as well as his smooth shot. It is true in college he was pigeon-holed to be just a 3p shooter, and that in Bulls he hasn't had lots of possibilities to pass, but I am not sure if that counts as "never".


Everything done before NBA doesn't count...
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Re: NBCSPORTS: Bulls must improve passing to achieve better pace & offense 

Post#20 » by Swuul » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:58 pm

Hugi Mancura wrote:
Swuul wrote:
Hugi Mancura wrote:Lavine's have never had high assist number and neither have Lauri.

I don't know how far back that "never" reaches, but Lauri always played as PG up to high-school, and was known for his smooth passes as well as his smooth shot. It is true in college he was pigeon-holed to be just a 3p shooter, and that in Bulls he hasn't had lots of possibilities to pass, but I am not sure if that counts as "never".


Everything done before NBA doesn't count...

Ah, so your comment should have been "never in NBA" instead of "never" for Lauri ("never" in this case holds true for Zach though) :)
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