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Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East

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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#21 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:38 pm

Indomitable wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Indomitable wrote:Michael Porter had a better chance of playing last year.

Oladipo will not be back until at least February. People make light of that injury but it is a terrible one to have. Especially for a player depends on the ability to run and jump.
https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2018/08/16/nba-players-patellar-tendon-rupture-injury-recovery-time-andre-roberson/

Roberson still has not returned. Tony Parker was a ghost of himself. With this injury they have to open you up to repair. Oladipo being who he was remains a big question marker.
Antonio McDyess went from a 20pt high flyer to a bench player. He never regain his explosiveness.
Caron Butler averaged 19 points per game before the injury, and 9.2 points per game after the injury.
Jeremy Lin went from being a solid NBA before the injury to a guy who over maybe playing over seas.

I have not found one player who ever came back to be who he was prior to the injury.

Roberson has yet to play and no one has comeback the same.

From my personal experience you never regain the strength in the leg you once had.

Indy will win at most 40 games.


I may be wrong but I think Roberson's injury is a little different.. he ruptured his patellar tendon.. it's different than Dipo's injury. Dipo's might by worse. The doctor in the below article says he thinks his injury is a little worse than an ACL, but he thinks Dipo can make a full recovery. Dipo's injury is very rare for an NBA player, especially a young one. Most of the players who this took our were much older guys like Parker and Barkley when it happened to him. Here is an interesting article on it with his doctor talking about the injury...

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/why-one-knee-doctor-says-victor-oladipos-ruptured-quadriceps-tendon-is-worse-than-an-acl-tear/

CBS SPORTS: Bottom line, do you expect Oladipo to make a full recovery?

DR. BENNER: The hard part is even if you get full range of motion back, even if you get all the strength back, there is that unknown part of the equation. Professional athletes have to put incredible stress on that muscle and tendon, whereas a normal person who sustains this injury, they're just looking to restore continuity of the muscle and get as much of the motion and function back as they can. They want to walk normal. Things like that. Victor Oladipo is an incredibly explosive and dynamic athlete. That's one of the things that makes him so special. So he has loftier expectations, or a higher bar if you will, for his recovery.

From a medical standpoint, the tendon is going to heal. If he is able to get his full motion and all the strength in his muscle back, he will be able to return to the explosive athlete he's been. But the thing is: it's hard to recover all that. There is no question that there are some aspects of an injury that might be insurmountable. Results differ from person to person, surgeon to surgeon, athletic trainer to athletic trainer. You just don't know until you get into the rehab and see how the athlete responds, and really, once he's back out there competing and being explosive and athletic.

Also, for the athlete, getting back the same level of strength and range of motion and all those things isn't the only hurdle with an injury like this. It's the mental part, the confidence to jump and land and explode the way an athlete like Oladipo is used to doing. Now, Victor Oladipo seems to be hard working and a really mentally strong guy, so I would say all indications would point to him being able to make a full recovery. But there is an unknown factor with an injury like this.

CBS SPORTS: OK, if you think a full recovery is likely, what about a timetable for his return to the court?

DR. BENNER: I think the goal would be to have him ready for the beginning of the [2019-20] regular season. I think that's a reasonable goal to try to hit. As doctors, we're always trying to set expectations for athletes that are lofty, that will keep the athlete motivated to do better and keep the recovery aggressive, but that are also realistic. You can't just expect that the recovery is going to go all according to plan, so you find that middle ground. October, to me, is a good middle ground. If I was Oladipo's doctor, I would tell him let's shoot for game one to start next season. If we get there, great, and if we don't, it shouldn't be long after.


I've heard that Dipo is going hard at his rehab and could be back sometime in December. A couple weeks ago there was footage of him running sprints. He seems to think he is going to come back stronger than he was. Maybe he doesn't make it back to where he was but I tend to agree with this guy...

https://clutchpoints.com/victor-oladipo-3-bold-predictions-for-the-pacers-star-in-2019-20/

Even without Oladipo, Indy has a really strong roster (better than ours, IMO). They have some of the best shooters in the league in Brogdon and Warren and they have Dougie on the bench. Even if Dipo never came back, that team is still winning more than 40 games, IMO. They need Oladipo back near full strength to compete for the ECF's but if he comes back full strength than watch out for the Pacers.

I am willing bet you on that. Without Oladipo they are worst or at best even.

Turner vs Wendell
Sabonis vs Lauri
Warren vs Otto
Lamb vs Lavine
Brogdon vs Tomas
Benches
McDermott vs Valentine
Tj Leaf vs Young
Holiday vs Dunn

There is nothing special about this squad.


I don't want to bet against my team, but if I had to bet $1000 right now on better record Pacers vs. Bulls this season, I would take the Pacers and be pretty confident on winning a grand.

I hope the Bulls are better. I'm just not confident they will be.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#22 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:14 pm

Indomitable wrote:Olapido will not be himself this season. Name the last time a player came off this type of injury where he was. Actually any leg injury. He might make it back but he most likely will not be what he was this season. He probably will struggle with injuries all season.


There's only been a few NBA players to ever even have a ruptured quad and all of them were in their mid to late 30's when it happened... Tony Parker, Charles Barkley. Cousins was the only one younger that I know of and his just happened in the most recent playoffs. After the achilles and now this and because of his size, I think Cousins is done in the league. It will definitely be interesting to see if Dipo can come back from this. I'm pulling for him. He was one of my favorite players in the league on and off the court. I hope he can make it back to form and shock a lot of people. His doctor thinks he can make a full recovery, although he did warn that there are many unknowns with his injury because it's so rare for somebody so young. We'll just have to wait and see.

Looking and it appears Blake Griffin is the only one I can find who has come back to anything close to where they were.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#23 » by ATRAIN53 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:29 pm

Oladipo has been doing his own comeback docu series on YT called the The VO Show if you hadn't seen it yet.



Short 10 min episodes. Have not watched them all but he's been shooting jumpers since last April when this debuted.
Looks to me like he's just sitting there licking his chops and waiting for the doctors to say OK to push himself more.

If he only has to play 50/60 regular season games, he'll be pretty fresh for the playoffs.
That's scary because this dude is driven to do something special IF his body holds up.

Dipo, Donovan Mitchell, Luka - these are my guys :love:
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#24 » by Am2626 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:49 pm

NWIBullsFan wrote:Pelton: Chicago (32 wins, No. 11). Statistical projections are largely unanimous that the Bulls should be near .500 this season after adding a number of quality role players (including Otto Porter Jr. at the 2019 trade deadline) to go with the young core that struggled to win games last season.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27428964/debating-nba-most-overrated-underrated-teams

Read on Twitter


Take the 3 computer generated predictions, and the Bulls are expected to win 38.4 games. That's better than Detroit (36.8) and barely behind Brooklyn (39.0) for 8th in the East.


A bunch of solid vets and role players are not going to give the Bulls an 18 to 20 game improvement in one year. Will the Bulls be better? Yes absolutely but they are not a playoff team yet. Maybe if either LaVine or Lauri transform into a top 20 player this year which I think is too much to ask. Teams like the Nets and Pistons have star players on their teams. This Bulls team doesn’t have that yet.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#25 » by Am2626 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:53 pm

ChettheJet wrote:Any prognosticator that mentions last year is not even trying to know what's going on. The Bulls had no team last year, at least not one that's going to be getting minutes this year. They do need to stay healthy because a good portion of their bench didn't play much last year and the rest is new so there's no real way to gauge their depth if someone gets hurt.

It might take 20 games to see how good they can become but I think they're a .500 team in the playoffs. Like the article says, a lot of teams added players, some big name players, but did they build a roster and rotation that's going to play together and win games? Teams got a bunch of new players but why were those players available, maybe their former teams didn't think they were worth having around.


What indication have the Bulls given that they can do this?
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#26 » by Indomitable » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:01 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Indomitable wrote:Olapido will not be himself this season. Name the last time a player came off this type of injury where he was. Actually any leg injury. He might make it back but he most likely will not be what he was this season. He probably will struggle with injuries all season.


There's only been a few NBA players to ever even have a ruptured quad and all of them were in their mid to late 30's when it happened... Tony Parker, Charles Barkley. Cousins was the only one younger that I know of and his just happened in the most recent playoffs. After the achilles and now this and because of his size, I think Cousins is done in the league. It will definitely be interesting to see if Dipo can come back from this. I'm pulling for him. He was one of my favorite players in the league on and off the court. I hope he can make it back to form and shock a lot of people. His doctor thinks he can make a full recovery, although he did warn that there are many unknowns with his injury because it's so rare for somebody so young. We'll just have to wait and see.

Looking and it appears Blake Griffin is the only one I can find who has come back to anything close to where they were.

It not the age it is the lost of strength. You lose the strength because of the injury. The lost blood flow and you cannot exercise it until the surgery.

ACL at least allows you to exercise the leg muscle until the surgery. His injury is also time dependent because atrophy isnnyour biggest enemy. Leg injuries are the worst.


ATRAIN53 wrote:Oladipo has been doing his own comeback docu series on YT called the The VO Show if you hadn't seen it yet.



Short 10 min episodes. Have not watched them all but he's been shooting jumpers since last April when this debuted.
Looks to me like he's just sitting there licking his chops and waiting for the doctors to say OK to push himself more.

If he only has to play 50/60 regular season games, he'll be pretty fresh for the playoffs.
That's scary because this dude is driven to do something special IF his body holds up.

Dipo, Donovan Mitchell, Luka - these are my guys :love:


I doubt it. He will struggle all season. He might just hurt it again but he does represents what I respect.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#27 » by Indomitable » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:05 pm

Am2626 wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Any prognosticator that mentions last year is not even trying to know what's going on. The Bulls had no team last year, at least not one that's going to be getting minutes this year. They do need to stay healthy because a good portion of their bench didn't play much last year and the rest is new so there's no real way to gauge their depth if someone gets hurt.

It might take 20 games to see how good they can become but I think they're a .500 team in the playoffs. Like the article says, a lot of teams added players, some big name players, but did they build a roster and rotation that's going to play together and win games? Teams got a bunch of new players but why were those players available, maybe their former teams didn't think they were worth having around.


What indication have the Bulls given that they can do this?

The Bulls management has built a playoff teams. Now being skeptical about their ability to build a true contender is valid. Winning regular season games is about health, depth, and motivation. Winning a ring is about top end talent.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#28 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:00 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Pacers at 6th in the East is the most underrated thing I see there.

I will not be shocked if DEN wins the West, but no one cares.
All we want is Clippers/Lakers

I really really want to see GSW just bottom out so bad this year

These guys know Khawi left TOR right?

Toronto is going to be like the Pacers of last year. Don't sleep on Pascal Siakam.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#29 » by khufure » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:12 pm

I'll take the over, especially on a 3 year plan. I really like the hiring of Fleming, and I think I like Rogers hire as well. Still not sure about the HC though.


Who knows how it will all shake out. One thing's for sure ... I'll actually be using my league pass consistently this season.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#30 » by dice » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:57 am

Am2626 wrote:
NWIBullsFan wrote:Pelton: Chicago (32 wins, No. 11). Statistical projections are largely unanimous that the Bulls should be near .500 this season after adding a number of quality role players (including Otto Porter Jr. at the 2019 trade deadline) to go with the young core that struggled to win games last season.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27428964/debating-nba-most-overrated-underrated-teams

Read on Twitter


Take the 3 computer generated predictions, and the Bulls are expected to win 38.4 games. That's better than Detroit (36.8) and barely behind Brooklyn (39.0) for 8th in the East.


A bunch of solid vets and role players are not going to give the Bulls an 18 to 20 game improvement in one year.

they were already playing at that level just with the addition of porter. small sample size, but surely with the ADDITIONAL upgrades as well as a full season of WCJ (with improvement) AND likely improvement from lavine and lauri...

the bulls are absolutely playoff contenders given that there are really only 2 surefire playoff bets in the east (bucks and sixers). and that's assuming that simmons and particularly embiid stay healthy. there are realistically only 8 other teams fighting for 6 playoff spots. even if you lock in boston and toronto it's 6 teams fighting for 4 spots. lock in oladipo returning strong and jimmy transforming the heat and there MIGHT be 6 strong teams in the east

speaking of the heat, i was astonished to find out that udonis haslem just signed on for his 17th season in miami. this is a guy who hasn't been particularly good since early in his career and has played a total of 77 games and 536 minutes over the last FOUR SEASONS combined

longest tenures with one team in nba history:

21 years dirk (51368 min)
20 years kobe (48637)
19 years duncan (47368)
19 years stockton (47764)
18 years miller (47619)
17 years haslem (21518)

check out how tightly packed those minutes totals are for the other guys
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#31 » by Am2626 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:58 pm

Indomitable wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Any prognosticator that mentions last year is not even trying to know what's going on. The Bulls had no team last year, at least not one that's going to be getting minutes this year. They do need to stay healthy because a good portion of their bench didn't play much last year and the rest is new so there's no real way to gauge their depth if someone gets hurt.

It might take 20 games to see how good they can become but I think they're a .500 team in the playoffs. Like the article says, a lot of teams added players, some big name players, but did they build a roster and rotation that's going to play together and win games? Teams got a bunch of new players but why were those players available, maybe their former teams didn't think they were worth having around.


What indication have the Bulls given that they can do this?

The Bulls management has built a playoff teams. Now being skeptical about their ability to build a true contender is valid. Winning regular season games is about health, depth, and motivation. Winning a ring is about top end talent.


There are a lot of variables to look at here. The first is that Scott Skiles is a much better and more proven coach than Jim Boylen. I’m not saying there is no chance the Bulls make the playoffs next year but seeing an 18-20 game improvement in one year is very tough to do. A lot of things will need to line up perfectly. I’d be more comfortable believing that if a better and more proven coach were leading this team. Secondly to be a playoff team, one of the core players will most likely have to breakout to an All Star Level. This is possible but is no guarantee. Even if one of LaVine or Lauri is able to do this that still may not be enough. I think it will take this year and next year before either of them are in a position to lead the Bulls into the Playoffs as the main guy. This year to become an All Star and the following year to be experienced enough to carry this team into the playoffs.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#32 » by TeamMan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:14 pm

When I saw the title of this thread I thought that a breakdown of the Bulls roster would follow, and when that did not happen, I just decided to take it with a "grain of salt".

Now, after going away and giving it some more thought, IMO it is partially true - the Bulls are intentionally being underrated by the professionals because they have to protect their reputations.

However, there is another group that pride themselves on being "insiders" that understand what's going on behind the scenes. It's within this group of analysts that the Bulls are being rated highly.

But because of the Bulls horrible history of health, everyone is being cautious because it's something that can't be predicted.

Still, what we have as fact is that when Zach, Lauri and OPJ were on the court together the Bulls were a winning team. And the only major contributor that is missing from that winning streak is RoLo.

After those 3 players, the Bulls overall roster is hugely improved because of the addition of some solid FAs, the players returning from injury, and last but not least, the 2 draft picks.

With this team the Bulls can defend, rebound, run and score with any team in the NBA. So, many of the wins or losses will hang on effort and experience, and that's where they could lose those 40 or more games. This is where Boylen's coaching staff will have to prove themselves.

So, the biggest question mark in my mind (even more than health) is the coaching. Boylen will need to bring the team together in training camp and have any chemistry issues resolved before the season starts. From the 1st game, they will need to hit the floor winning the games that they should win, and competing in the games that they should lose.

If Boylen does his job, the Bulls could make it into the low 40s for a win total, otherwise, they will fall into the low 30s.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#33 » by transplant » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:36 pm

TeamMan wrote:When I saw the title of this thread I thought that a breakdown of the Bulls roster would follow, and when that did not happen, I just decided to take it with a "grain of salt".

Now, after going away and giving it some more thought, IMO it is partially true - the Bulls are intentionally being underrated by the professionals because they have to protect their reputations.

However, there is another group that pride themselves on being "insiders" that understand what's going on behind the scenes. It's within this group of analysts that the Bulls are being rated highly.

But because of the Bulls horrible history of health, everyone is being cautious because it's something that can't be predicted.

Still, what we have as fact is that when Zach, Lauri and OPJ were on the court together the Bulls were a winning team. And the only major contributor that is missing from that winning streak is RoLo.

After those 3 players, the Bulls overall roster is hugely improved because of the addition of some solid FAs, the players returning from injury, and last but not least, the 2 draft picks.

With this team the Bulls can defend, rebound, run and score with any team in the NBA. So, many of the wins or losses will hang on effort and experience, and that's where they could lose those 40 or more games. This is where Boylen's coaching staff will have to prove themselves.

So, the biggest question mark in my mind (even more than health) is the coaching. Boylen will need to bring the team together in training camp and have any chemistry issues resolved before the season starts. From the 1st game, they will need to hit the floor winning the games that they should win, and competing in the games that they should lose.

If Boylen does his job, the Bulls could make it into the low 40s for a win total, otherwise, they will fall into the low 30s.


Very good post.

This bulls team has promise. After two seasons of expecting losses virtually every game, I'm genuinely looking forward to watching games where I believe that they have a chance to win. I realize that they're likely to lose more than they win, but it won't be the foregone conclusion of the past 2 seasons. I expect them to be competitive.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#34 » by chefo » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:02 am

High 30s, low 40s sounds about right... and with the All-star game in Chicago, you know that Lauri and Zach will hustle like mad to open the season. Or at least they should.

If things break right, I can easily see a doubling of last year's wins. I think people are underestimating the Bulls because they see the top 5 faces returning being the same... but now the Bulls have legit talent 6-8. These abominations that took the floor last year with 4-5 G-leaguers in at the same time are hopefully a thing of the past.

A wing and a decent big for 9 and 10, and the Bulls are set. I think the Bulls will definitely beat the Vegas odds and if the 'glass health' fairy does not pay them a visit, beat the projections of the quants as well.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#35 » by coldfish » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:31 pm

Am2626 wrote:
NWIBullsFan wrote:Pelton: Chicago (32 wins, No. 11). Statistical projections are largely unanimous that the Bulls should be near .500 this season after adding a number of quality role players (including Otto Porter Jr. at the 2019 trade deadline) to go with the young core that struggled to win games last season.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27428964/debating-nba-most-overrated-underrated-teams

Read on Twitter


Take the 3 computer generated predictions, and the Bulls are expected to win 38.4 games. That's better than Detroit (36.8) and barely behind Brooklyn (39.0) for 8th in the East.


A bunch of solid vets and role players are not going to give the Bulls an 18 to 20 game improvement in one year. Will the Bulls be better? Yes absolutely but they are not a playoff team yet. Maybe if either LaVine or Lauri transform into a top 20 player this year which I think is too much to ask. Teams like the Nets and Pistons have star players on their teams. This Bulls team doesn’t have that yet.


The current Bulls team basically didn't play last year. Using last year's team as a baseline is only marginally more accurate than using Washington as a baseline. Otto only played 15 games and the team was 7-8 during that stretch. Even then, the team will add Wendell, Coby, Sato and Thad to the group that did that and replace a bunch of G league players.

Chicago is actually really hard to project as a result of this. Casual fans of other teams don't realize that close to 75% of the minutes played this year will be by different players than last year. Otto, Wendell, Lauri, Lavine will play perhaps double the minutes they played here last year. Sato, Coby and Thad will actually be here. They will replace Felicio, Dunn, Hutch, Blakeney, Portis, Parker, Shaq, Luwawu, Selden, Arci, etc. Its all about health.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#36 » by chitowndish » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:53 pm

I think we're fairly rated by everyone except Vegas. I don't really follow odds so I'm not sure how they set them but if it's driven by betting I think it probably is that the average NBA fan probably doesn't put together that we were tanking last year, made a series of really good moves and basically turned a g league bench unit into a really solid and versatile lineup.

The others seem to have it pegged right around where I feel they will end up is around 40 wins. I also don't mind if analysts take a bit of a you have to prove yourself before we start going out on a limb for you mentality. It's usually the opposite that bothers me when they start heaping praise on a team or player that hasn't proven anything yet. Overall though I think 37/38/39 wins are all perfectly reasonable expectations and I'd admit I'm probably optimistic at around 40 (I think they can actually be a little above .500 and get bounced in the first round) but I think we added a lot of smart versatile players and the sum will be better than the parts.
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Re: Pelton: Bulls most underrated team in East 

Post#37 » by old skool » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:58 pm

I think this will be a difficult year for the Bulls.

What is their goal? Will they try to maximize their assets? Will they play Dunn to showcase him for the inevitable trade or do they let him go for nothing? Is Valentine in their plans or do they let him rot on the bench and frustrate his need to perform for that next contract?

If they spend time early in the season giving minutes to players who are not long term pieces, how will the rest off the team react?

These are the types of issues faced by all mid tier teams that are caught in the middle between developing and competing. It is not as easy as it might seem from the outside. Managing conflicting agendas will likely hurt overall team success on the court.

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