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Pessimists will not like this

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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#21 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:22 pm

By the way the title of the thread went, I would have figured they would have us tops on the list of up and coming rebuilding teams. It has us 4th. Not 4th in the east. But 4th as far as teams who could turn it around from a rebuild. That isn't good at all. Unless the standard is not being the absolute worst. Ok so we are not the absolute worst, whoopee. I dont think any of us marked us as the absolute worst.

Article sort of confirms what I see here mostly. We at best could be a playoff team, everything goes perfectly coaching is great lavine and lauri take that next step at best we end up 4th or 5th seed but still a miles away from a true contender.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#22 » by transplant » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:08 pm

While I don't put much credence in the article, I didn't read anything that was startlingly optimistic. The Bulls damn well better be a decent team...not great, but decent, competitive. I think that's what the majority of Bulls fans expect this season.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#23 » by Dominater » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:18 am

League Circles wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
League Circles wrote:I admit I don't watch the Hawks. I'm proud of that and I don't really believe that anyone outside ATL does either.

I think a solid case can be made that the Bulls have at least 3 of the 4 best players between the two teams. Perhaps the best 4.

What decisions, specifically, should we be impressed with Schlenk for having made?

Not sure anything exciting has come from the Hawks since Dominique.


Trae Young and Collins are already better than anyone we have. And they added the highly coveted Hunter and hyped Reddish who is a rookie version of Leonard and George.
Add in poor mans Klay Thompson and thats a scary looking team that can still add a star or 2.

Trae Young sucks and always will. There's my "bold" prediction (strange to think it's controversial since he's terrible statistically and is a very low level prospect from a physical tools standpoint). Collins is good but I don't think he'll ever be anything special. Hunter should be pretty good but no reason to think he'll be better than Porter IMO. Reddish and Heurter are nothing IMO.

I truly wouldn't trade any of Carter, Lauri, Porter or Lavine for any of their top guys.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual on their end too. They would hang up the phone laughing if we offered any of the above for either Trae or Collins. Both are pretty clearly superior to anything we have
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#24 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:42 am

Dominater wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
Trae Young and Collins are already better than anyone we have. And they added the highly coveted Hunter and hyped Reddish who is a rookie version of Leonard and George.
Add in poor mans Klay Thompson and thats a scary looking team that can still add a star or 2.

Trae Young sucks and always will. There's my "bold" prediction (strange to think it's controversial since he's terrible statistically and is a very low level prospect from a physical tools standpoint). Collins is good but I don't think he'll ever be anything special. Hunter should be pretty good but no reason to think he'll be better than Porter IMO. Reddish and Heurter are nothing IMO.

I truly wouldn't trade any of Carter, Lauri, Porter or Lavine for any of their top guys.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual on their end too. They would hang up the phone laughing if we offered any of the above for either Trae or Collins. Both are pretty clearly superior to anything we have

I have lots of friends who stay in the Atlanta area who are huge basketball fans. And they say all the time that they would take Lauri over Collins and Lavine over young. It’s a grass is always greener on the other side type of thing with bulls fans on here. I guarantee you if Lavine, Markannan and Carter was on teams people on this board would be drooling over them. But honestly I love the Atlanta Hawks and think that they are going to be a playoff team in the near future. They have so much young talent just like the bulls. Should be some fun match ups in the future.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#25 » by Dominater » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:51 am

wonderboy2 wrote:
Dominater wrote:
League Circles wrote:Trae Young sucks and always will. There's my "bold" prediction (strange to think it's controversial since he's terrible statistically and is a very low level prospect from a physical tools standpoint). Collins is good but I don't think he'll ever be anything special. Hunter should be pretty good but no reason to think he'll be better than Porter IMO. Reddish and Heurter are nothing IMO.

I truly wouldn't trade any of Carter, Lauri, Porter or Lavine for any of their top guys.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual on their end too. They would hang up the phone laughing if we offered any of the above for either Trae or Collins. Both are pretty clearly superior to anything we have

I have lots of friends who stay in the Atlanta area who are huge basketball fans. And they say all the time that they would take Lauri over Collins and Lavine over young. It’s a grass is always greener on the other side type of thing with bulls fans on here. I guarantee you if Lavine, Markannan and Carter was on teams people on this board would be drooling over them. But honestly I love the Atlanta Hawks and think that they are going to be a playoff team in the near future. They have so much young talent just like the bulls. Should be some fun match ups in the future.

I would like to see that put to the test on the T&T board to see what fans from around the league think. Trae and Collins are pretty clearly superior to me, especially considering that Zach is already on his 2nd contract while Trae still has 3 years of dirt cheap left. I still like Zach and Lauri dont get me wrong, but they had a 2-3 week stretch of strong consistent winning basketball, while Trae and Collins did it for the entire post ASB season
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#26 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:52 am

If you go to the general board almost everybody will tell you that Lauri is better than Collins. People on this board complain about Markannan defensively but Markannan is much better on that end than Collins.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#27 » by League Circles » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:02 am

Dominater wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
Trae Young and Collins are already better than anyone we have. And they added the highly coveted Hunter and hyped Reddish who is a rookie version of Leonard and George.
Add in poor mans Klay Thompson and thats a scary looking team that can still add a star or 2.

Trae Young sucks and always will. There's my "bold" prediction (strange to think it's controversial since he's terrible statistically and is a very low level prospect from a physical tools standpoint). Collins is good but I don't think he'll ever be anything special. Hunter should be pretty good but no reason to think he'll be better than Porter IMO. Reddish and Heurter are nothing IMO.

I truly wouldn't trade any of Carter, Lauri, Porter or Lavine for any of their top guys.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual on their end too. They would hang up the phone laughing if we offered any of the above for either Trae or Collins. Both are pretty clearly superior to anything we have

There's nothing remotely clear about Trae Young being better than any of our top 4.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#28 » by nomorezorro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:04 am

markkanen is absolutely not a better defensive player than john collins

collins and lauri are both kinda weird imperfect prospects that present challenges to build around, but i think lauri has both a higher ceiling and lower floor
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#29 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:07 am

Dominater wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:
Dominater wrote:I'm sure the feeling is mutual on their end too. They would hang up the phone laughing if we offered any of the above for either Trae or Collins. Both are pretty clearly superior to anything we have

I have lots of friends who stay in the Atlanta area who are huge basketball fans. And they say all the time that they would take Lauri over Collins and Lavine over young. It’s a grass is always greener on the other side type of thing with bulls fans on here. I guarantee you if Lavine, Markannan and Carter was on teams people on this board would be drooling over them. But honestly I love the Atlanta Hawks and think that they are going to be a playoff team in the near future. They have so much young talent just like the bulls. Should be some fun match ups in the future.

I would like to see that put to the test on the T&T board to see what fans from around the league think. Trae and Collins are pretty clearly superior to me, especially considering that Zach is already on his 2nd contract while Trae still has 3 years of dirt cheap left. I still like Zach and Lauri dont get me wrong, but they had a 2-3 week stretch of strong consistent winning basketball, while Trae and Collins did it for the entire post ASB season

Well that’s your opinion. I’m not talking about contracts I’m talking actual production on the court. Lavine was pretty damn consistent all year. You don’t average 24 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assist a game while being double teamed every night and not be consistent. Collins defense is way below Markannans. Markannan had some good games and bad games. But he was comming off injury and despite that still averaged 19 and 9. That’s very good production. Collins had his fair share of bad games to, that’s life for a young NBA player. I watched a fair amount of Hawks games because imo they are very exciting to watch. For as much **** Lavine gets about his defense Young makes Lavine look like a prime Gary Payton. Lavine is a better scorer, more efficient, better defensively, better rebounder than young. Young is the better playmaker obviously but he turns the ball over more. If you want to say that Young is better than Lavine and Collins is better than Markannan fine. But to say that they are CLEARLY SUPERIOR would be false.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#30 » by GhostOfChicago » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:13 am

wonderboy2 wrote:If you go to the general board almost everybody will tell you that Lauri is better than Collins. People on this board complain about Markannan defensively but Markannan is much better on that end than Collins.


If Lauri had a point guard that could throw lobs and pin point passes like Collins has his numbers would be improved.

You're correct on the defensive side of the ball, Collins is on par with Bobby Portis as a defender. Lauri needs to get better on that end but he's close to being average than bad like Collins.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2822874-metrics-101-exposing-the-nbas-worst-defender-at-every-position#slide2

Unless they improve, Atlanta could have the two worse defenders on the floor every game they play. Both are from their best players
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#31 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:13 am

nomorezorro wrote:markkanen is absolutely not a better defensive player than john collins

collins and lauri are both kinda weird imperfect prospects that present challenges to build around, but i think lauri has both a higher ceiling and lower floor

Not only is John Collins a bad defender, he’s one of the worst power forward defenders in the entire league. Look at his stats on defense. Ask any hawk fan about his defense. They will tell you that he can get you buckets and is a tough rebounder but his defense is horrid. In theory you would think he would be an excellent defender due to his strength and athleticism but that is just not the case.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#32 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:16 am

GhostOfChicago wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:If you go to the general board almost everybody will tell you that Lauri is better than Collins. People on this board complain about Markannan defensively but Markannan is much better on that end than Collins.


If Lauri has a point guard that could throw lobs and pin point passes like Collins has his numbers would be improved.

You're correct on the defensive side of the ball, Collins is on par with Bobby Portis as a defender. Lauri needs to get better on that end but he's close to being average than bad like Collins.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2822874-metrics-101-exposing-the-nbas-worst-defender-at-every-position#slide2

Unless they improve, Atlanta could have the two worse defenders on the floor every game they play. Both are from their best players

Lol beat me to it. But I agree. Markannan defense is actually pretty good on the perimeter. Just need to do a better job as a post defender and against stronger bigs.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#33 » by nomorezorro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:25 am

ehhh at most i could buy the argument that markkanen was easier to configure into a team offense based on last season because he can at least do a passible job on the perimeter

but collins has better career defensive metrics and better tools. they're both lacking good defensive instincts. it's a question of whether you think lauri's decent perimeter skills + bad rim protection game is better than collins's athletic profile and flashes of competence as a weak-side defender. i'd go for the latter personally
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#34 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:56 am

nomorezorro wrote:ehhh at most i could buy the argument that markkanen was easier to configure into a team offense based on last season because he can at least do a passible job on the perimeter

but collins has better career defensive metrics and better tools. they're both lacking good defensive instincts. it's a question of whether you think lauri's decent perimeter skills + bad rim protection game is better than collins's athletic profile and flashes of competence as a weak-side defender. i'd go for the latter personally

But Collins is not a rim protector either. He’s also out of position most of the time and is not a good man defender either. Atleast Markannan has the ability to guard on the perimeter some. Don’t get me wrong Markannan does need to improve. But anybody that has seen Collins play despite his physical tools know that he is beyond horrible on that end. That being said Collins seems like a good work ethic type of of player. I have no doubt that he will improve.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#35 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:18 am

nomorezorro wrote:ehhh at most i could buy the argument that markkanen was easier to configure into a team offense based on last season because he can at least do a passible job on the perimeter

but collins has better career defensive metrics and better tools. they're both lacking good defensive instincts. it's a question of whether you think lauri's decent perimeter skills + bad rim protection game is better than collins's athletic profile and flashes of competence as a weak-side defender. i'd go for the latter personally


There is no way Hell I trade Markkanen for Collins as of right now.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#36 » by Dez » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:36 am

Collins is getting seriously overrated by some people.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#37 » by nomorezorro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:16 pm

oh i was just talking about defensively in that post. i would not trade markkanen for collins either; i think lauri is a better prospect

i do think collins is probably a better player *right now* than markkanen, and it's super plausible he ends up with a better career. but peak lauri > peak collins, imo, and that's what matters most for us
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#38 » by PaKii94 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:27 pm

Collins & Lauri are like polar opposites in player types. Collins is a force fed big who has a decent shot (can shoot 3s) but TERRIBLE defense (bad rim protection + bad perimeter d). He goes how Trae goes. Lauri is an offensive player who creates his own shot, has a much better shooting stroke (3s is a primary weapon for him) and he's mediocre at defense (decent perimeter d + poor rim protection).

In both aspects, Lauri is clearly ahead. What Collins is ahead in is finishing (pick and rolls) at the rim but idt there is much potential for more. It's like comparing KLove with Tyson Chandler with a semi decent shot. Tyson in the right situation can play his role better (DPOY) but KLove's all around package is valued more.
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#39 » by kyrv » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:markkanen is absolutely not a better defensive player than john collins

collins and lauri are both kinda weird imperfect prospects that present challenges to build around, but i think lauri has both a higher ceiling and lower floor

Not only is John Collins a bad defender, he’s one of the worst power forward defenders in the entire league. Look at his stats on defense. Ask any hawk fan about his defense. They will tell you that he can get you buckets and is a tough rebounder but his defense is horrid. In theory you would think he would be an excellent defender due to his strength and athleticism but that is just not the case.


If a big is strong, athletic, and a good rebounder, to be that bad at defense - kind of striking. Big flag that has been dyed red. Part of that has to be effort right?
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Re: Pessimists will not like this 

Post#40 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:20 am

kyrv wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:markkanen is absolutely not a better defensive player than john collins

collins and lauri are both kinda weird imperfect prospects that present challenges to build around, but i think lauri has both a higher ceiling and lower floor

Not only is John Collins a bad defender, he’s one of the worst power forward defenders in the entire league. Look at his stats on defense. Ask any hawk fan about his defense. They will tell you that he can get you buckets and is a tough rebounder but his defense is horrid. In theory you would think he would be an excellent defender due to his strength and athleticism but that is just not the case.


If a big is strong, athletic, and a good rebounder, to be that bad at defense - kind of striking. Big flag that has been dyed red. Part of that has to be effort right?


Defense, IMO, is about 50% effort and 40% mental. The vast majority of players in the NBA have the physical tools to be able to defend their position. Sure, there are bigs who just cannot move their feet and lack the agility and speed to guard PnR. However, so much of it is anticipation and IQ. Knowing what is happening and where the ball is going and what the other team is trying to do. So many players have all the physical tools to be excellent defenders but just don't have it between the ears. They just look lost all the time as team and help defenders but man on man they can usually stay on front of their man.
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