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Lauri to get more time at C

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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#21 » by Axolotl » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:29 am

coldfish wrote:Wendell is going to play 32 minutes or so at center. I would play Lauri another 10 minutes at center next to Thad (who is a good help guy) and finish with Kornett.

Example units (4/5):
1) Lauri / Wendell 22 minutes
2) Thad / Lauri 10 minutes
3) Thad / Wendell 10 minutes
4) Thad / Kornett 6 minutes

Totals
Lauri 32
Wendell 32
Thad 26
Kornett 6


This is what I've been thinking too. Pairing Markkanen with Young alleviates the defensive woes of center-Markkanen while giving the opponet headaches with how to defend that pair. Worth exploring.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#22 » by ZOMG » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:22 am

Mark K wrote:
coldfish wrote:I wouldn't go that far with it. Wendell is going to play 32 minutes or so at center. I would play Lauri another 10 minutes at center next to Thad (who is a good help guy) and finish with Kornett.

Example units (4/5):
1) Lauri / Wendell 22 minutes
2) Thad / Lauri 10 minutes
3) Thad / Wendell 10 minutes
4) Thad / Kornett 6 minutes

Totals
Lauri 32
Wendell 32
Thad 26
Kornett 6

While I think you are right that Lopez was underrated last year, he wasn't as mobile as Wendell is. As long as WCJ can stay out of foul trouble, I think that switching to him from Lopez is going to help the defense.


I can get behind what you've outlined because it's not too onerous on Markkanen. Fundamentally, though, I just think Markkanen is a 4 with some versatility, but nothing beyond that. Also, I don't the need to push the center position to even smaller levels is a trend that will continue at the same velocity as recent years. That belief is why I think the Markkanen-Carter pairing is sustainable for the long haul.

All that said, I do think it's important to remember Markkanen having the luxury of playing with such a selfless center (Lopez) over the years is something that gets underrated. I do often wonder how impactful his first two season may have been had the Bulls gone with an inexperienced center rotation during the initial stages of Markkanen's development.

Carter will have Markkanen's back, I'm sure, but behind him, there isn't much, so in those when Carter isn't there and Young may be off the floor, I think Markkanen is at risk of being exposed.


Huh?

In his rookie season, Lauri was seldom involved with Lopez offensively. The only plays the Bulls ran for Markkanen happened on the perimeter - handoffs, pick and pops, and the like to free him for 3 point shots. Whenever RoLo was involved in those plays, his input was brief and straighforward. Nothing a more inexperienced NBA center couldn't have handled.

In fact, generally Lopez clogged the lane with his inability to shoot and his endless PnR's with Dunn. That certainly didn't help Lauri's development one bit, as he was often reduced to a spectator on the perimeter. Saying that Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez is one of the weirdest pieces of revisionist history I've heard in a while. I like RoLo well enough and there were times he was very useful, but he was MASSIVELY overpaid for what he did and what his overall impact was.

The best thing about Markkanen's rookie season was precisely that he had to scratch and claw for most of his offensive production. He was inexperienced but aggressive and confident. Lauri got a lot of PT for a young big but wasn't in any way a centerpiece for playcalling. That year showed that while he had a lot of holes in his game and doubtless had an easier time when playing with good people, he wasn't 100% dependent on the team spoon-feeding him easy looks.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#23 » by NDave79 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:41 am

coldfish wrote:Been saying this a good thing for a while. He has a mismatch at center on offense and beyond that, he pulls opposing centers out of the lane which makes life easier for his teammates.

Him defending the post is no big deal. That's what help D is for. If the Bulls lull opposing teams into trying to post up Lauri all game long, they have won. The issue is Lauri's help D. He needs to get a lot better at it.


I agree with almost all of this and don't consider Lauri a rim protector because he obviously isn't. However, I think Lauri is actually a pretty good defender of the pick and roll/pop. I'm not sure if this is considered off ball defense, but it does involve defending more than just his own man. I consider this one of the most important defensive skills for a center. I guess maybe I'm just debating semantics about what is off ball or on ball defense.

I believe Lauri's best position is always going to be at the 4 when you factor in both offense and defense. I also think it is likely that as he naturally fills out he is going to be able to take advantage of smaller players better than what we have seen so far and that him being a 7-foot power forward will end up giving him advantages on the offensive end that closes the gap of the offensive advantages he has shown so far while being defended by 5's.

edit-I'm not actually debating or disagreeing with anything you wrote. I more just want to find something to discuss while we we patiently wait for the NBA season to begin, lol.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#24 » by ZOMG » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:49 am

As for the subject of this thread...

Madness. MADNESS, I say.

I sound like a broken record, but there are some serious misconceptions about the center position at work here.

1) Quite a few people seem to think that Lauri will have a clear offensive advantage against "big, slow centers" who are forced to lumber onto the perimeter with him. Ummm... who are those centers? Please name at least 10. Yeah, you can't, because those guys can't even get on the floor anymore. Someone like RoLo - especially with the kinds of minutes he's been playing for the Bulls lately - is a total outlier. The modern NBA center is a mobile, athletic rim protector and Lauri won't have an advantage over that player.

2) Markkanen doesn't have the physical tools to play the 5 in the modern NBA - particularly if he keeps bulking up. He was already considerably less springy last season, and if he can't get off the ground, his inadequate length will be even more pronounced. He's not wrestling against Greg Kite, people. He's trying to stop Porzingis.

I have a bad feeling about this.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#25 » by bearadonisdna » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:58 am

Pro:
Pull shot blockers away from rim.

Con:
More prone to foul trouble.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#26 » by Mark K » Tue Sep 3, 2019 10:37 am

ZOMG wrote:Huh?

In his rookie season, Lauri was seldom involved with Lopez offensively. The only plays the Bulls ran for Markkanen happened on the perimeter - handoffs, pick and pops, and the like to free him for 3 point shots. Whenever RoLo was involved in those plays, his input was brief and straighforward. Nothing a more inexperienced NBA center couldn't have handled.

In fact, generally Lopez clogged the lane with his inability to shoot and his endless PnR's with Dunn. That certainly didn't help Lauri's development one bit, as he was often reduced to a spectator on the perimeter. Saying that Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez is one of the weirdest pieces of revisionist history I've heard in a while. I like RoLo well enough and there were times he was very useful, but he was MASSIVELY overpaid for what he did and what his overall impact was.

The best thing about Markkanen's rookie season was precisely that he had to scratch and claw for most of his offensive production. He was inexperienced but aggressive and confident. Lauri got a lot of PT for a young big but wasn't in any way a centerpiece for playcalling. That year showed that while he had a lot of holes in his game and doubtless had an easier time when playing with good people, he wasn't 100% dependent on the team spoon-feeding him easy looks.


My post had nothing to do with Markkanen - Lopez as an offensive combination or what Lopez did for him on offense, nor did I say Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#27 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 3, 2019 12:21 pm

Mark K wrote:We're about to find out how important Robin Lopez was to this team.


I think this is true, and I'm not sure if you're implying an answer with your statement, but I'm curious to see just how important Robin Lopez is to the team.

Boylen will have to run things differently without Lopez as he used him as an offensive weapon a ton in the low post, and there is no replacement for that style of offense with him gone. If he adjusts and doesn't try to run an old school, low post offense and moves to something more modern then the Bulls may be much better off.

Certainly, I don't think Robin was doing much to get out on guys on the perimeter, but he was a solid rim protector. I think WCJ can break even or upgrade defensively if healthy due to much better ability to help outside of the paint and switch.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#28 » by Mark K » Tue Sep 3, 2019 12:24 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Mark K wrote:We're about to find out how important Robin Lopez was to this team.


I think this is true, and I'm not sure if you're implying an answer with your statement, but I'm curious to see just how important Robin Lopez is to the team.

Boylen will have to run things differently without Lopez as he used him as an offensive weapon a ton in the low post, and there is no replacement for that style of offense with him gone. If he adjusts and doesn't try to run an old school, low post offense and moves to something more modern then the Bulls may be much better off.

Certainly, I don't think Robin was doing much to get out on guys on the perimeter, but he was a solid rim protector. I think WCJ can break even or upgrade defensively if healthy due to much better ability to help outside of the paint and switch.


I was certainly implying that his lost will be felt, more so on defense and rim protection than anything else. Hopefully Kornet and/or Gafford are reliable because if they ain’t the center position this could become a problem.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#29 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 3, 2019 12:40 pm

Mark K wrote:I was certainly implying that his lost will be felt, more so on defense and rim protection than anything else. Hopefully Kornet and/or Gafford are reliable because if they ain’t the center position this could become a problem.


Certainly he's a good player, and we will miss some things he does. I am hopeful that the stylistic change forced upon his departure and improving upon his weaknesses with other players will mitigate the loss of his strengths though.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#30 » by sco » Tue Sep 3, 2019 12:49 pm

I really find myself wanting WCj and Kornet to play well enough for Lauri not to find a minute at C this season. Luke give us the same outside shooting and can also bring rim protection.

The analogy to turning Lauri into a physical post player is like adding a trailer-hitch to your Ferrari. Sure, you'll be able to tow that trailer fast, but...
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#31 » by coldfish » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:22 pm

ZOMG wrote:As for the subject of this thread...

Madness. MADNESS, I say.

I sound like a broken record, but there are some serious misconceptions about the center position at work here.

1) Quite a few people seem to think that Lauri will have a clear offensive advantage against "big, slow centers" who are forced to lumber onto the perimeter with him. Ummm... who are those centers? Please name at least 10. Yeah, you can't, because those guys can't even get on the floor anymore. Someone like RoLo - especially with the kinds of minutes he's been playing for the Bulls lately - is a total outlier. The modern NBA center is a mobile, athletic rim protector and Lauri won't have an advantage over that player.

2) Markkanen doesn't have the physical tools to play the 5 in the modern NBA - particularly if he keeps bulking up. He was already considerably less springy last season, and if he can't get off the ground, his inadequate length will be even more pronounced. He's not wrestling against Greg Kite, people. He's trying to stop Porzingis.

I have a bad feeling about this.


Regardless of how slow centers are, PF's are faster. The biggest thing that makes Lauri NOT Ryan Anderson is the fact that he can put the ball on the floor. The slower his defender is, the more likely Lauri is to get by him. When Lauri is guarded by smaller, quicker players he really struggles. He can't post them up, he can't get by them and they bother him when they get into him on the perimeter, which hurts his ability to make outside shots.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#32 » by coldfish » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:29 pm

sco wrote:I really find myself wanting WCj and Kornet to play well enough for Lauri not to find a minute at C this season. Luke give us the same outside shooting and can also bring rim protection.

The analogy to turning Lauri into a physical post player is like adding a trailer-hitch to your Ferrari. Sure, you'll be able to tow that trailer fast, but...


Why would putting Lauri at the C make him a physical post player?

Lauri was fantastic last February but it was basically his only great month of his career and he had to end his season because the exertion was too much for him. Overall, Lauri has been rather mediocre. His game doesn't fit any position. A lot of people seem to want to use him as Ryan Anderson, which would have been fine if it was 2010 but those "tall guys who stand around the arc and don't do much other than shoot 3's" have already been replaced.

Lauri needs to find a niche that allows him to be a consistently effective player. His:
- Struggles against smaller defenders
- Poor help defense
Really limit him. At this point, I would strongly consider trading him before he asks for a massive contract extension. Right now he is the bad type of tweener. Too slow to be a PF and doesn't have the skills for a C.

Hopefully we get Februlauri for most of this season and its all good.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#33 » by johnnyvann840 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 1:51 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Mark K wrote:
coldfish wrote:I wouldn't go that far with it. Wendell is going to play 32 minutes or so at center. I would play Lauri another 10 minutes at center next to Thad (who is a good help guy) and finish with Kornett.

Example units (4/5):
1) Lauri / Wendell 22 minutes
2) Thad / Lauri 10 minutes
3) Thad / Wendell 10 minutes
4) Thad / Kornett 6 minutes

Totals
Lauri 32
Wendell 32
Thad 26
Kornett 6

While I think you are right that Lopez was underrated last year, he wasn't as mobile as Wendell is. As long as WCJ can stay out of foul trouble, I think that switching to him from Lopez is going to help the defense.


I can get behind what you've outlined because it's not too onerous on Markkanen. Fundamentally, though, I just think Markkanen is a 4 with some versatility, but nothing beyond that. Also, I don't the need to push the center position to even smaller levels is a trend that will continue at the same velocity as recent years. That belief is why I think the Markkanen-Carter pairing is sustainable for the long haul.

All that said, I do think it's important to remember Markkanen having the luxury of playing with such a selfless center (Lopez) over the years is something that gets underrated. I do often wonder how impactful his first two season may have been had the Bulls gone with an inexperienced center rotation during the initial stages of Markkanen's development.

Carter will have Markkanen's back, I'm sure, but behind him, there isn't much, so in those when Carter isn't there and Young may be off the floor, I think Markkanen is at risk of being exposed.


Huh?

In his rookie season, Lauri was seldom involved with Lopez offensively. The only plays the Bulls ran for Markkanen happened on the perimeter - handoffs, pick and pops, and the like to free him for 3 point shots. Whenever RoLo was involved in those plays, his input was brief and straighforward. Nothing a more inexperienced NBA center couldn't have handled.

In fact, generally Lopez clogged the lane with his inability to shoot and his endless PnR's with Dunn. That certainly didn't help Lauri's development one bit, as he was often reduced to a spectator on the perimeter. Saying that Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez is one of the weirdest pieces of revisionist history I've heard in a while. I like RoLo well enough and there were times he was very useful, but he was MASSIVELY overpaid for what he did and what his overall impact was.

The best thing about Markkanen's rookie season was precisely that he had to scratch and claw for most of his offensive production. He was inexperienced but aggressive and confident. Lauri got a lot of PT for a young big but wasn't in any way a centerpiece for playcalling. That year showed that while he had a lot of holes in his game and doubtless had an easier time when playing with good people, he wasn't 100% dependent on the team spoon-feeding him easy looks.


Actually, Lopez was a huge positive impact player over the last couple of seasons. A real tank killer... Bulls were a net +6.5 per game (per 48 mins) with Lopez on the floor just last season. He's one of the few things that kept the team from historically all time bad team territory. One of the only Bulls players who actually played team basketball and had a good effect on the scoreboard. Bulls offense was almost 3 pts (2.9) better and the defense was 3.5 points better with Lopez than without.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#34 » by sco » Tue Sep 3, 2019 2:25 pm

coldfish wrote:
sco wrote:I really find myself wanting WCj and Kornet to play well enough for Lauri not to find a minute at C this season. Luke give us the same outside shooting and can also bring rim protection.

The analogy to turning Lauri into a physical post player is like adding a trailer-hitch to your Ferrari. Sure, you'll be able to tow that trailer fast, but...


Why would putting Lauri at the C make him a physical post player?

Lauri was fantastic last February but it was basically his only great month of his career and he had to end his season because the exertion was too much for him. Overall, Lauri has been rather mediocre. His game doesn't fit any position. A lot of people seem to want to use him as Ryan Anderson, which would have been fine if it was 2010 but those "tall guys who stand around the arc and don't do much other than shoot 3's" have already been replaced.

Lauri needs to find a niche that allows him to be a consistently effective player. His:
- Struggles against smaller defenders
- Poor help defense
Really limit him. At this point, I would strongly consider trading him before he asks for a massive contract extension. Right now he is the bad type of tweener. Too slow to be a PF and doesn't have the skills for a C.

Hopefully we get Februlauri for most of this season and its all good.

Your points are my concerns as well; however, I think that if he stays lean and light, he is/can be quick enough to be a PF and I'm fine giving him the season to prove it. If he can't be a PF, I am all-in on trading him, because there is no scenario that he becomes a C on a contending team.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#35 » by ZOMG » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:06 pm

coldfish wrote:
sco wrote:I really find myself wanting WCj and Kornet to play well enough for Lauri not to find a minute at C this season. Luke give us the same outside shooting and can also bring rim protection.

The analogy to turning Lauri into a physical post player is like adding a trailer-hitch to your Ferrari. Sure, you'll be able to tow that trailer fast, but...


Why would putting Lauri at the C make him a physical post player?

Lauri was fantastic last February but it was basically his only great month of his career and he had to end his season because the exertion was too much for him. Overall, Lauri has been rather mediocre. His game doesn't fit any position. A lot of people seem to want to use him as Ryan Anderson, which would have been fine if it was 2010 but those "tall guys who stand around the arc and don't do much other than shoot 3's" have already been replaced.

Lauri needs to find a niche that allows him to be a consistently effective player. His:
- Struggles against smaller defenders
- Poor help defense
Really limit him. At this point, I would strongly consider trading him before he asks for a massive contract extension. Right now he is the bad type of tweener. Too slow to be a PF and doesn't have the skills for a C.

Hopefully we get Februlauri for most of this season and its all good.


The Bulls are not trading a popular young big who just averaged 21 and 10 per 36 despite struggling much of the season. Come on. Anyway, you don't get traded in the NBA for inadequate help defense. :lol:

Also, we've been over this before - Lauri might not be the greatest help defender in the world, but then again, that's not his job description. He's a scorer and a good one-on-one defender on the perimeter for his size. That's a plus.

The plays that really seem to annoy you help defense fans were usually ones where someone got beat on the perimeter and Lauri happened to be in the general vicinity of the basket, guarding his own man. Yeah, he rarely went in and challenged the driving player at the rim, but this is the NBA. The player with the ball ALWAYS gets the benefit of the doubt in those situations, particularly when the help defender is an inexperienced young big who's coming in late. WCJ learned that the hard way last season.

I suspect Lauri is more shrewd than most people realize. He knew that if he started helping aggessively in driving situations, he'd collect 4 fouls in no time and was headed to the bench. Meanwhile, we weren't even really trying to win, and he wasn't gonna sacrifice himself for no reason. I'm not necessarily trying to defend that kind of state of mind, but hey, that's what you get in a team culture that has all sorts of problems from the front office down. The kids learned to look after themselves first.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#36 » by ZOMG » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:21 pm

Mark K wrote:
ZOMG wrote:Huh?

In his rookie season, Lauri was seldom involved with Lopez offensively. The only plays the Bulls ran for Markkanen happened on the perimeter - handoffs, pick and pops, and the like to free him for 3 point shots. Whenever RoLo was involved in those plays, his input was brief and straighforward. Nothing a more inexperienced NBA center couldn't have handled.

In fact, generally Lopez clogged the lane with his inability to shoot and his endless PnR's with Dunn. That certainly didn't help Lauri's development one bit, as he was often reduced to a spectator on the perimeter. Saying that Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez is one of the weirdest pieces of revisionist history I've heard in a while. I like RoLo well enough and there were times he was very useful, but he was MASSIVELY overpaid for what he did and what his overall impact was.

The best thing about Markkanen's rookie season was precisely that he had to scratch and claw for most of his offensive production. He was inexperienced but aggressive and confident. Lauri got a lot of PT for a young big but wasn't in any way a centerpiece for playcalling. That year showed that while he had a lot of holes in his game and doubtless had an easier time when playing with good people, he wasn't 100% dependent on the team spoon-feeding him easy looks.


My post had nothing to do with Markkanen - Lopez as an offensive combination or what Lopez did for him on offense, nor did I say Lauri's rookie season was somehow the product of Robin Lopez.


Oh? In what way was it a "luxury" for Lauri to play with a "selfless center" then? I'm directly quoting you here. (Please don't bring up RoLo's magical block-outs.)

As I said, I like RoLo, but let's be real. Robin is an all-world black hole in the low post - you pass him the ball and it's NOT coming back out. I'm not really sure what being "selfless" even means when your team is catering to you to a ridiculous extent. RoLo spent huge parts of the last two seasons as an offensive centerpiece of this team, which is insane. I'm not sure that's ever happened to a player like him before in the NBA.

These two past seasons were an absolute dream for RoLo individually, and while I hope he finds success elsewhere, he's in for a rude awakening. No more 15 second post-ups.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#37 » by Jiipee84 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:28 pm

If the point is turn Lauri full-time Center this will be really lousy and brain-dead idea.
Which will bite Bulls really hard straight to ass.

What a hell Boylen is thinking is he lost his mind or what's the deal in this because i don't get this at all.
If Bulls originally intended turn Lauri full-time center then why the hell Bulls have drafted Carter and Gafford who are centers.
It would have been wiser to draft starting PF if / when Markkanen really starts play Center.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#38 » by PaKii94 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:50 pm

I think this is getting blown out of proportion. Boosting minutes at C =/= playing full time C. Lauri I am sure can play spurts at C depending on the matchups. I am not too worried about that. I would start worrying if he's forced into substantial minutes there though.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#39 » by madvillian » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:12 pm

PaKii94 wrote:I think this is getting blown out of proportion. Boosting minutes at C =/= playing full time C. Lauri I am sure can play spurts at C depending on the matchups. I am not too worried about that. I would start worrying if he's forced into substantial minutes there though.


Yea dog days of summer speculation thread. Some great points though about RoLo and Lauri both generally for and against this move and in context of the offense Chicago will run.

I think if Boylan can adjust to not having a lumbering center and make sure to get Lauri in spots he can score from the 5 it will be a boost. If not, hopefully the experiment will end quickly.

One thing I disagree with categorically is that Lauri is not "built" to play the 5 in today's NBA. He's fine. The 5 has evolved so much in just the last few years and fewer and fewer teams are finding reasons to keep Lopez types around. And I believe as CF noted, help defense has never been more organized. If Lauri is getting backed down, then help. You'd think Kris Dunn could at least get his long arms in the way.
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Re: Lauri to get more time at C 

Post#40 » by NDave79 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 8:33 pm

This isn't really relevant to this thread, but I found it kinda cool. It looks like Lauri has always been a Bulls fan. Just trying to do my part keeping the forum going for the next month or 2 while we wait.

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9807281

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