Image ImageImage Image

Derrick Rose "I am a Hall of Famer. Not in everyone's eyes but to the people I grew up with. I made it."

Moderators: HomoSapien, GimmeDat, AshyLarrysDiaper, Payt10, RedBulls23, dougthonus, fleet, kulaz3000, Tommy Udo 6 , Ice Man, DASMACKDOWN

User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 60,935
And1: 22,664
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#21 » by DuckIII » Sun Sep 8, 2019 4:44 am

Rose is absolutely correct that he made it, and should be pleased with what he accomplished professionally and certainly financially.

As to the fans saying he deserves the HOF, I mean, there’s absolutely no way he even gets close to making it.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 33,501
And1: 8,104
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#22 » by dice » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:04 am

RedBulls23 wrote:
dice wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Iguodala only made the all star team once, and was definitely the 4th or 5th best player on the championship teams he was apart of (and probably only critical to one of the titles).

Billups was a five time all-star whom was arguably the best player on his single championship team but also arguably the forth best player.

I'd say both are border line cases, especially since most of Billups all-star selections were largely influenced by how good his team was and not necessarily how good his individual play was.

Then I remember that if you were a good but not great college coach from the 60s you're probably in the hall of fame because why wouldn't the hall of fame have like 50% college coaches who are basically nobodies and then I think that yeah, both should get in.

iguodala has been a significantly better player than dennis johnson was, for example. another guy who was not close to the best player on a few title teams. iggy is better as a defender, arguably a more effective scorer and at least as good a passer as a wing!

No, he really hasn't.

DJ was a 5x allstar, 9x all defense teams, and 2 all nba teams and also has a finals mvp vs Iggy finals mvp, 1 allstar, and 2 all defense teams.

and yet you refuted not a single one of my reasons why iggy has been the better player (i shouldn't have said "significantly")

kobe was on a whole lot of all defensive teams too. iggy has been a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than kobe

this is at age 35 (!):



and, of course, there's his D on lebron in the finals. not too many guys who have been able to slow down that guy (jimmy, iggy...). deng couldn't
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
User avatar
RedBulls23
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 36,437
And1: 18,164
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
Location: Waiting in Grant Park
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#23 » by RedBulls23 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:11 am

dice wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
dice wrote:iguodala has been a significantly better player than dennis johnson was, for example. another guy who was not close to the best player on a few title teams. iggy is better as a defender, arguably a more effective scorer and at least as good a passer as a wing!

No, he really hasn't.

DJ was a 5x allstar, 9x all defense teams, and 2 all nba teams and also has a finals mvp vs Iggy finals mvp, 1 allstar, and 2 all defense teams.

and yet you refuted not a single one of my reasons why iggy has been the better player (i shouldn't have said "significantly")

kobe was on a whole lot of all defensive teams too. iggy has been a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than kobe

this is at age 35 (!):



and, of course, there's his D on lebron in the finals. not too many guys who have been able to slow down that guy (jimmy, iggy...). deng couldn't

You offered subjective opinions. I offered actual accomplishments on why guys get into the hall of fame.
User avatar
bearadonisdna
RealGM
Posts: 12,198
And1: 1,990
Joined: Jul 07, 2012

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#24 » by bearadonisdna » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:16 am

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:
League Circles wrote:Have any MVP winners not made it?

all have made it. only 3 FINALS mvps have not made it. cedric maxwell no longer has a chance, billups and iguodala might (and probably should)


Iguodala only made the all star team once, and was definitely the 4th or 5th best player on the championship teams he was apart of (and probably only critical to one of the titles).

Billups was a five time all-star whom was arguably the best player on his single championship team but also arguably the forth best player.

I'd say both are border line cases, especially since most of Billups all-star selections were largely influenced by how good his team was and not necessarily how good his individual play was.

Then I remember that if you were a good but not great college coach from the 60s you're probably in the hall of fame because why wouldn't the hall of fame have like 50% college coaches who are basically nobodies and then I think that yeah, both should get in.


5 all stars and a FMVP is borderline like you said.
Objectively it seems like enough.
Subjective he was never the top tier talent you would consider for the hall. Usually accomplishments trump the narrative so if I had to bet I would think he would get in.

Derrick May have missed the boat because his narrative has a a lot of of negative energy. If at some point he cleans up his image , but it’s not completely salvaged.
User avatar
RedBulls23
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 36,437
And1: 18,164
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
Location: Waiting in Grant Park
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#25 » by RedBulls23 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:19 am

DuckIII wrote:Rose is absolutely correct that he made it, and should be pleased with what he accomplished professionally and certainly financially.

As to the fans saying he deserves the HOF, I mean, there’s absolutely no way he even gets close to making it.

Idk, I could see people that vote for the HOF (Hall of famers, basketball executives, nba writers etc.) vote for him.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he probably doesnt get in, but I also wouldn't be shocked that he did. Whether you agree with it or not, people's opinion of him around the league is still very high. He is well respected among his peers and in the media.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 33,501
And1: 8,104
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#26 » by dice » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:47 am

RedBulls23 wrote:
dice wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:No, he really hasn't.

DJ was a 5x allstar, 9x all defense teams, and 2 all nba teams and also has a finals mvp vs Iggy finals mvp, 1 allstar, and 2 all defense teams.

and yet you refuted not a single one of my reasons why iggy has been the better player (i shouldn't have said "significantly")

kobe was on a whole lot of all defensive teams too. iggy has been a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than kobe

this is at age 35 (!):



and, of course, there's his D on lebron in the finals. not too many guys who have been able to slow down that guy (jimmy, iggy...). deng couldn't

You offered subjective opinions. I offered actual accomplishments on why guys get into the hall of fame.

actual accomplishments based on subjective opinions of media members :dontknow:...which are obviously impacted by things like...how good a guy's team is (iggy's were mediocre in philly)...and whether a guy is a starter (iggy sacrificed that for the team initially). dennis johnson barely got into the hall of fame despite those media accolades. rodman got in a lot faster despite only being a 2 time all-star

and the argument was not about who WILL get into the HOF. it was about who SHOULD. which is more subjective. strictly by the numbers iggy is very unlikely to get in

if you want to ACTUALLY be objective, look at the stats. and iggy wins on that count. more efficient scorer, better a:to ratio, better rebounder. most importantly, his teams' performance has tended to go way up when he is on the floor

iggy wins the eye test as well (subjective)
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
2018C3
Sophomore
Posts: 188
And1: 134
Joined: Jul 14, 2018
   

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#27 » by 2018C3 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 8:40 am

Definately borderline, If he never got injured it would have been a sure thing.

Whatever the outcome, he can consider himself a success story, and a great tallent. Injuries and health could hit anyone at anytime.

I'm now indifferent to either opinion. If he gets in, it will be on tallent and not on carear stats. But if this generation see's him in that status I will stay out of the discussion, My childhood heros are already in.
StunnerKO
Starter
Posts: 2,470
And1: 1,585
Joined: Sep 25, 2017

Re: Derrick Rose "I am a Hall of Famer. Not in everyone's eyes but to the people I grew up with. I made it."  

Post#28 » by StunnerKO » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:41 am

If Rose gets a 6th man of the year award and a ship with a contender I think he gets in. That would make Rose and Walton the only mvp to win the 6th man of the year award. Too bad he didn’t get that ship at Memphis


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 60,935
And1: 22,664
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#29 » by DuckIII » Sun Sep 8, 2019 11:05 am

RedBulls23 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Rose is absolutely correct that he made it, and should be pleased with what he accomplished professionally and certainly financially.

As to the fans saying he deserves the HOF, I mean, there’s absolutely no way he even gets close to making it.

Idk, I could see people that vote for the HOF (Hall of famers, basketball executives, nba writers etc.) vote for him.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he probably doesnt get in, but I also wouldn't be shocked that he did. Whether you agree with it or not, people's opinion of him around the league is still very high. He is well respected among his peers and in the media.


That doesn’t get you in the Hall though. He was an MVP. And that’s big. But he was only a 3x Allstar, 1x All NBA, never played a single Finals game, appears nowhere on any career statistic lists, and played zero Olympic Games. Chris Webber isn’t even in, they include college, and he was the star of the most famous college team of all time.

Is it “possible” he gets in? Sure, I guess. But it would have no comp. He would be the only guy ever to get in on “gosh, we really think you might have actually qualified had you not been hurt, so we’ll give it to you based on an assumption.”

HOF is a career-aggregate distinction. He doesn’t have the resume.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
User avatar
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 29,521
And1: 7,271
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#30 » by League Circles » Sun Sep 8, 2019 12:33 pm

DuckIII wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Rose is absolutely correct that he made it, and should be pleased with what he accomplished professionally and certainly financially.

As to the fans saying he deserves the HOF, I mean, there’s absolutely no way he even gets close to making it.

Idk, I could see people that vote for the HOF (Hall of famers, basketball executives, nba writers etc.) vote for him.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he probably doesnt get in, but I also wouldn't be shocked that he did. Whether you agree with it or not, people's opinion of him around the league is still very high. He is well respected among his peers and in the media.


That doesn’t get you in the Hall though. He was an MVP. And that’s big. But he was only a 3x Allstar, 1x All NBA, never played a single Finals game, appears nowhere on any career statistic lists, and played zero Olympic Games. Chris Webber isn’t even in, they include college, and he was the star of the most famous college team of all time.

Is it “possible” he gets in? Sure, I guess. But it would have no comp. He would be the only guy ever to get in on “gosh, we really think you might have actually qualified had you not been hurt, so we’ll give it to you based on an assumption.”

HOF is a career-aggregate distinction. He doesn’t have the resume.

I think it's probably 50/50 for him. You say he has no comp? Every MVP has got in, there are the comps.

He also dominated HS with 2 state titles, and college while he was there, and won 2 gold medals in the FIBA world cup.

FWIW bball reference lists his HOF likelihood at 10.5%.
User avatar
TyrusRose2425
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,931
And1: 3,806
Joined: May 23, 2008
     

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#31 » by TyrusRose2425 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 1:43 pm

MVP alone is why he’d get in. We’ll find out eventually if that is enough or not
Thomas Müller- "We're not careless or arrogant. We're dominant"
User avatar
MAQ
RealGM
Posts: 45,109
And1: 2,378
Joined: Feb 28, 2006
Location: Dedication
     

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#32 » by MAQ » Sun Sep 8, 2019 2:47 pm

Didn't know he had a book for sale.

Feel a little weird asking this as a grown man, but any Chicagoland signings taking place?
GYBE wrote:I don't think my behaviour changes at all when I'm drunk. But when I'm wasted, my girlfriend becomes a real klutz. She starts walking into doors and falling down stairs. Weird.
waffle
RealGM
Posts: 10,683
And1: 1,306
Joined: Jun 07, 2002
Location: Don't question the finger and do respect the black box. That is all.....

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#33 » by waffle » Sun Sep 8, 2019 3:05 pm

HOF? Nope
User avatar
Red Larrivee
RealGM
Posts: 41,325
And1: 17,643
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Location: Hogging Microphone Time From Tom Dore

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#34 » by Red Larrivee » Sun Sep 8, 2019 3:21 pm

He would've had a better chance if he never played again after tearing his ACL.

I'm happy for him though. It seems like he's really at peace with himself and his career. I definitely want to check his book out.
User avatar
RedBulls23
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 36,437
And1: 18,164
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
Location: Waiting in Grant Park
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#35 » by RedBulls23 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 3:38 pm

DuckIII wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Rose is absolutely correct that he made it, and should be pleased with what he accomplished professionally and certainly financially.

As to the fans saying he deserves the HOF, I mean, there’s absolutely no way he even gets close to making it.

Idk, I could see people that vote for the HOF (Hall of famers, basketball executives, nba writers etc.) vote for him.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he probably doesnt get in, but I also wouldn't be shocked that he did. Whether you agree with it or not, people's opinion of him around the league is still very high. He is well respected among his peers and in the media.


That doesn’t get you in the Hall though. He was an MVP. And that’s big. But he was only a 3x Allstar, 1x All NBA, never played a single Finals game, appears nowhere on any career statistic lists, and played zero Olympic Games. Chris Webber isn’t even in, they include college, and he was the star of the most famous college team of all time.

Is it “possible” he gets in? Sure, I guess. But it would have no comp. He would be the only guy ever to get in on “gosh, we really think you might have actually qualified had you not been hurt, so we’ll give it to you based on an assumption.”

HOF is a career-aggregate distinction. He doesn’t have the resume.

I have no clue why Chris Webber hasn't gotten in. Idk why Grant Hill did, and he didn't.

I'm saying that I could see Rose get in because of the things I've listed along with the fact that he was the youngest MVP in NBA history considering all MVPs are in the hall. Btw, he does have 2 gold medals from playing the national team in 2010 and 2014 for the fiba world cup, so maybe that counts for something.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,922
And1: 297
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#36 » by TeamMan » Sun Sep 8, 2019 3:44 pm

dice wrote:
TeamMan wrote:Never saw another player do all of the things that he could do.

Because of his talent the team leaned on him too hard to provide the offense.

If he'd had an even decent SG during his early years then it would have been a different situation.

I still hate that Thabo was traded to the Thunder in Rose's 1st year. He was the player that Brewer was supposed to be, but Brewer had the big contract and the reputation. Thibs didn't want to play Brewer though because he didn't really fit with Rose.

IMO Westbrook benefited from having Thabo starting next to him early in his career. That could have been Rose instead.

bogans was a better shooter than thabo. hinrich was better than both of them. and would have started next to derrick had we not dumped him (rightly) to take a shot at lebron/wade/bosh

brewer didn't have a big contract either. he got 2 years/9.5 mil and the team declined his 3rd year option. meanwhile thabo was playing under a 5 year/17 mil deal with the thunder. brewer wishes now that he'd have had thabo's deal

If my memory is correct Bogans was brought in after the season started because Thibs didn't want to play Brewer. But that was 2 years after Thabo was traded, and at that time Brewer was still with Utah.

Same for Hinrich, he left one year after Thabo was traded.

Thabo was still on his rookie contract when he was traded (don't know which year), but the Thunder contract came 2 years later.

After the trade, even though it was late in the season (at the trading deadline), he immediately started for the Thunder and they went on a winning streak. And he stayed in the starting lineup for years.

------------------------------------
Rumor was that LeBron wanted to play for the Bulls because of Rose. But after all of the craziness happened between Pax and Vinny, LeBron changed his mind.

He even made a statement in the press that he thought that Vinny had done a good job when the Bulls faced them in the playoffs the year before, and he didn't understand the firing.

So, Pax can blame himself for what happened with LeBron.
Dan Z
Head Coach
Posts: 7,105
And1: 2,390
Joined: Feb 19, 2002
Location: Chicago
 

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#37 » by Dan Z » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:51 pm

I was going to make a joke about the ghost writer of his book, but I see that it's Sam Smith and that he's credited on the cover. I'm not a fan of Smith's writing, but it makes sense that he worked with him.
User avatar
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 29,521
And1: 7,271
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#38 » by League Circles » Sun Sep 8, 2019 8:11 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:Idk, I could see people that vote for the HOF (Hall of famers, basketball executives, nba writers etc.) vote for him.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he probably doesnt get in, but I also wouldn't be shocked that he did. Whether you agree with it or not, people's opinion of him around the league is still very high. He is well respected among his peers and in the media.


That doesn’t get you in the Hall though. He was an MVP. And that’s big. But he was only a 3x Allstar, 1x All NBA, never played a single Finals game, appears nowhere on any career statistic lists, and played zero Olympic Games. Chris Webber isn’t even in, they include college, and he was the star of the most famous college team of all time.

Is it “possible” he gets in? Sure, I guess. But it would have no comp. He would be the only guy ever to get in on “gosh, we really think you might have actually qualified had you not been hurt, so we’ll give it to you based on an assumption.”

HOF is a career-aggregate distinction. He doesn’t have the resume.

I have no clue why Chris Webber hasn't gotten in. Idk why Grant Hill did, and he didn't.

I'm saying that I could see Rose get in because of the things I've listed along with the fact that he was the youngest MVP in NBA history considering all MVPs are in the hall. Btw, he does have 2 gold medals from playing the national team in 2010 and 2014 for the fiba world cup, so maybe that counts for something.

Grant Hill was probably a top 3ish player in the world for a few years. Chris Webber was never even a top 3 PF.
User avatar
Axl Rose
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,839
And1: 3,173
Joined: Jul 03, 2013
Location: Superunknown

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#39 » by Axl Rose » Sun Sep 8, 2019 9:39 pm

TeamMan wrote:If my memory is correct Bogans was brought in after the season started because Thibs didn't want to play Brewer. But that was 2 years after Thabo was traded, and at that time Brewer was still with Utah.


Your memory is way off, Bogans was signed in the off season and i think was originally slated as a end of bench guy. I believe Brewer was dealing with a hamstring injury and thats why Keith got the starting spot. Thibs liked what he saw and stuck with it.

Also on Thabo, you're forgetting we traded him for the pick that landed us Taj (Who was instrumental in that teams success).

Looking back we were allot further away then we thought at the time. Miami could clamp down on Rose and no one could make them pay - certainty not Sefolosha.
Have I run too far to get home?
User avatar
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 29,521
And1: 7,271
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Derrick Rose 

Post#40 » by League Circles » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:34 pm

Bogans started because he was a better O/D balance than Brewer or Korver. Drastically better defender than Korver, and while not really a better offensive player than Brewer, had drastically better shooting range. Bogans was really the #2 SG cause Brewer still got more minutes.

Bogans is probably the most inappropriate scapegoat by Bulls fans in memory.

Return to Chicago Bulls