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Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP)

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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#21 » by League Circles » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:05 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Most people have caught on at this point. Whenever GM and/or owner rankings come out, the Bulls are near the bottom.

It is certainly one of the worst in all of sports, not just the NBA.


Like when Gar Forman gets voted executive of the year multiple times? By the people who, unlike click bait media types, are actually privy to tons of private information about what the Bulls do?

It's weird as hell to follow a team you think is the worst run in league history.


What years did Gar win executive of the year?


Reading is fundamental. I never said he won, I said he got votes. But he did in fact win if you must know. You said "whenever GM rankings come out, the Bulls are near the bottom". WRONG. Gar was the co-winner with Pat Riley in 2010 and was 4th in 2012 and got votes in 2017 too. Maybe votes in other years. Not sure.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#22 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:08 pm

League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Like when Gar Forman gets voted executive of the year multiple times? By the people who, unlike click bait media types, are actually privy to tons of private information about what the Bulls do?

It's weird as hell to follow a team you think is the worst run in league history.


What years did Gar win executive of the year?


Reading is fundamental. I never said he won, I said he got votes. But he did in fact win if you must know. You said "whenever GM rankings come out, the Bulls are near the bottom". WRONG. Gar was the co-winner with Pat Riley in 2010 and was 4th in 2012 and got votes in 2017 too. Maybe votes in other years. Not sure.


No I think you meant to say “gets votes ‘for’ executive of the year”, not “gets voted executive of the year”. Writing is fundamental.
KC: Do you still think you're a championship-caliber team?
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#23 » by League Circles » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:09 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
What years did Gar win executive of the year?


Reading is fundamental. I never said he won, I said he got votes. But he did in fact win if you must know. You said "whenever GM rankings come out, the Bulls are near the bottom". WRONG. Gar was the co-winner with Pat Riley in 2010 and was 4th in 2012 and got votes in 2017 too. Maybe votes in other years. Not sure.


No I think you meant to say “gets votes ‘for’ executive of the year”, not “gets voted executive of the year”. Writing is fundamental.

True haha
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#24 » by League Circles » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:10 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Strange, I hear it all the time. About how they’re doing everything they can to win. That they haven’t had the right opportunities to pay the luxury tax. That’s my favorite line, hear that one a lot


I think you're imagining things to be honest. Let us know next time you see it.

A. They have paid the luxury tax - when it made sense

B. NOT paying the luxury tax can be synonymous with doing everything you can to win (not saying it always or usually is, but if you understand how the passage of time and opportunity costs work it's clear why)


I’m not imagining anything. There are thousands upon thousands of fans that think the Bulls top priority is winning. In fact, this is the common thought in sports until proven otherwise. Lots of those reside on this board.

Again, let me know when you see someone write that. It's illogical that someone who owns a multi billion dollar business would have something other than finances as the top priority. Some people are myopic and insist that his only priority is finances. But even if it was, winning is highly correlated with financial gain. As the dynasty proved.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#25 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:12 pm

League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Nice redirect. My idea could be true even if they had never won anything. But of course they have won under JR.

If you can't understand why a businessman MIGHT intentionally give a competitor bad advice, I don't know what to tell you.


It’s not a redirect. If it was gamesmanship and JRs true interest was winning, he’s be running the white Sox very differently than how they’ve been run. This is very obvious.

Not surprisingly, the Marlins have been much more successful than the White Sox.

Why would there be one true interest?

I would think it's obvious that his interests are in making money and winning, which are typically correlated (at least in basketball, not sure about baseball).

If you want to make money and also to win (cause you love baseball like he does), what is inconsistent about trying to get your competitors to lower their aims? Especially since you can take solace in the fact that you gave good financial advice.


JR has lots of interests. Money, family, food, suits, winning etc etc. Some are laughably higher than others.

The idea that JR is giving advice to others so he can build a championship team and keep all the ships to himself is literally proven false by his teams track record.

This conversation is painful.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#26 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:22 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
It’s not a redirect. If it was gamesmanship and JRs true interest was winning, he’s be running the white Sox very differently than how they’ve been run. This is very obvious.

Not surprisingly, the Marlins have been much more successful than the White Sox.

Why would there be one true interest?

I would think it's obvious that his interests are in making money and winning, which are typically correlated (at least in basketball, not sure about baseball).

If you want to make money and also to win (cause you love baseball like he does), what is inconsistent about trying to get your competitors to lower their aims? Especially since you can take solace in the fact that you gave good financial advice.


JR has lots of interests. Money, family, food, suits, winning etc etc. Some are laughably higher than others.

The idea that JR is giving advice to others so he can build a championship team and keep all the ships to himself is literally proven false by his teams track record.

This conversation is painful.


I believe in gamesmanship for sure and that something like this could be someone’s tactic. The thing is really outside of a guy like Balmer now and the Steinbrenner and Dr Buss not many owners are truly win first over profit. Prokrohov just showed us how it is really done as an investment stand point and in the end that is what being an owner is. Jerry is pretty transparent about what he is others not so much. His tactic of second place is a stellar business move (one Zell tried to do for a while) because winning the championship is not sustainable, staying a second place team is way more sustainable and the best way to profit. I am sure not just Jerry but most owners would agree. Well maybe not Jordan who doesn’t even bother wanting to win at all.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#27 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:46 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:I don't disagree with the logic, though it's obviously not something fans want to hear. Also, I think the quote comes off as condescending, because it makes fans sound like suckers.

Making money is the top goal of every franchise. Winning a championship is the optimal goal, because it's the best way to improve a franchise's value and make money. Unfortunately, only one team wins a title each year, so building a team that has a high floor of winning games, making the playoffs, and "being in it" is a wise thing to do.

Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#28 » by BeKuK » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:52 pm

Dammit, I wished we would finish sometimes at 2nd place....not even every year.....just sometimes.

Stupid cheap jackass......

And idiots like me are buying damn tickets to fly over the damn atlantic ocean to watch at least two damn games, so this old bastard gets his damn money.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#29 » by Red Larrivee » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:53 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:I don't disagree with the logic, though it's obviously not something fans want to hear. Also, I think the quote comes off as condescending, because it makes fans sound like suckers.

Making money is the top goal of every franchise. Winning a championship is the optimal goal, because it's the best way to improve a franchise's value and make money. Unfortunately, only one team wins a title each year, so building a team that has a high floor of winning games, making the playoffs, and "being in it" is a wise thing to do.


Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.


Yes it is.

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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#30 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 3:56 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:I don't disagree with the logic, though it's obviously not something fans want to hear. Also, I think the quote comes off as condescending, because it makes fans sound like suckers.

Making money is the top goal of every franchise. Winning a championship is the optimal goal, because it's the best way to improve a franchise's value and make money. Unfortunately, only one team wins a title each year, so building a team that has a high floor of winning games, making the playoffs, and "being in it" is a wise thing to do.

Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#31 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:01 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:I don't disagree with the logic, though it's obviously not something fans want to hear. Also, I think the quote comes off as condescending, because it makes fans sound like suckers.

Making money is the top goal of every franchise. Winning a championship is the optimal goal, because it's the best way to improve a franchise's value and make money. Unfortunately, only one team wins a title each year, so building a team that has a high floor of winning games, making the playoffs, and "being in it" is a wise thing to do.

Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#32 » by League Circles » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:05 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.

Doesn't Dolan make as much or more money than anyone and lose more than most? Correct me if I'm wrong cause I didn't look up numbers but that's my vague understanding.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#33 » by League Circles » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:10 pm

The thing people need to wrap their head around is the short term vs long term dynamic. Trying every year to win as much as you can is likely to hurt BOTH your winning prospects, certainly your peak winning prospects, AND your profitability/valuation long term. Picking your spots is crucial. I mean that's what tanking is all about, just as the most glaring example.

For example, the Bulls most competitive team in the past 8 years or so (and their first or second most competitive team in the last 21 years) would likely have been MUCH worse had they tried to win as much as possible every year. If you match Asik and keep (and re-sign) Korver in 2012, you can't sign Gasol and Niko in 2014, and Gasol clearly helped us challenge the Heat in the 2015 playoffs.

Was Amazon not trying to make as much money as they could when they racked up corporate losses for many years? I'd say they surely WERE trying to make as much money as possible, they just had a different time frame context than the IRS did.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#34 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:13 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Making money is not the top goal of every franchise.



Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#35 » by Hangtime84 » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:15 pm

League Circles wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.

Doesn't Dolan make as much or more money than anyone and lose more than most? Correct me if I'm wrong cause I didn't look up numbers but that's my vague understanding.


Dolan team is in one the most expensive and populated cities in the world. He also owns the media company so technically makes more money for the Knicks for this.

Spending money doesn’t make a franchise great. More often it’s fastest way to mediocrity.

If 2010 happened in our favor we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Next shot at taking the next step up in contention is these next off seasons.
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aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


NBA fan logic we need to trade one of two best players because (Player X) one needs to shine more.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#36 » by Hold That » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:54 pm

This is terrible logic. And people are making sense of it
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#37 » by R3AL1TY » Sat Oct 5, 2019 4:57 pm

Unfortunately, it's a business at the end of the day. The FO and the owners don't want to win at the level where they have to spend excessive money when it comes to big raises and supermaxes. They want to win with cheap or below market contracts.

If fans raise hell about this quote, I can see them doing damage control PR about it.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#38 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 5, 2019 5:04 pm

First off, he is correct. If you want to maximize profit in the short term*, keep up fan interest at the minimum cost.

That said, Jerry has so many horrific quotes associated to him that defending him as an owner is evidence of stockholm syndrome. the guy cares about profit, profit and profit. He isn't going to invest in the team.

And yes, there are owners that are willing to invest in a team. Stick it out there in the hopes of winning.

Quite frankly, if not for you guys I would have switched team allegiance years ago or just stopped following the NBA. The Bulls are kind of a scam.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#39 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 5, 2019 5:08 pm

Hold That wrote:This is terrible logic. And people are making sense of it


It actually is but hear me out. In the short term, you will make the most money by keeping fan interest up while keeping costs down.

That said, and Jerry should know this, over the long term you franchise value is maximized by winning. Jerry made hundreds of millions of dollars over decades due to the MJ effect. GS will have a halo effect due to their current team for 10+ years.

Jerry's statements exactly match how the franchise is run though. They maximize profit in the short term at the expense of long term growth. That's how they won the NBA profit title for so many years but now are in danger of falling to 10th in franchise valuation next year.
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Re: Advice Jerry Reinsdorf gave former Marlins president: "Finish 2nd place every year" (full quote in OP) 

Post#40 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 5, 2019 5:19 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

Outside of Balmer who do you have on that list?

Cuban. Gilbert. Dolan.

Tons of soccer teams.



Cuban surely doesn’t portray himself as a bafoon like Reinsdorf does but that man is all about making money he is just way way way better at selling himself and I wish he owned the Bulls even with profits in mind. I don’t know that Gilbert and Dolan know what they are doing and there really is no good argument for what they do with their teams regardless. In fact I would assume yourself included that no one would chose Gilbert or Dolan as the owner you want of your team. Plus Dolan is known for milking as much money out of all his products as he can, ie concessions etc...

I do agree with the soccer teams because that is the international level of buying a trophy. In US sports it is approaching that level but really only Balmer has crossed that threshold right now. Prokohorov used that model and basically duped everybody and walked out with bags of cash.

Trust me I am not Pro-Jerry but there aren’t many owners of value that aren’t in it to turn a profit. Jerry is just so damn unlikable and too stupidly honest about his intentions that skin crawls listening to him.

Mavs are near the top in Lux tax spending. I believe Cuban paid a huge tax bill for their title team.

The best owners don’t use their team as a source of cash flow. Granted in recent years all NBA owners are “making” money as the valuations have skyrocketed. But owners I’ve mentioned have been willing to lose cash to attempt to win.

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