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Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread

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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#741 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:03 pm

logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
logical_art wrote:
It's certainly not a fact.


Please offer examples of things Markkanen does better.


Play basketball in the NBA. More specifically, shooting, finishing and all around scoring, as well as athleticism.

Kornet looks promising, but I'm not willing to pronounce it a fact that he's a better player based on a single preseason game or that + a few games vs Chicago last season. At every step of their college and pro career, Lauri has been a better player than Luke. That could possibly (but unlikely) change, but it hasn't based on a preseason games or a few games vs a single team.


I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#742 » by logical_art » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:12 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Please offer examples of things Markkanen does better.


Play basketball in the NBA. More specifically, shooting, finishing and all around scoring, as well as athleticism.

Kornet looks promising, but I'm not willing to pronounce it a fact that he's a better player based on a single preseason game or that + a few games vs Chicago last season. At every step of their college and pro career, Lauri has been a better player than Luke. That could possibly (but unlikely) change, but it hasn't based on a preseason games or a few games vs a single team.


I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:


Or maybe his point was that Luke had a better game than Lauri. I don't disagree. Its a leap from that to stating as a fact that Luke is a better basketball player than Lauri.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#743 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:18 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Please offer examples of things Markkanen does better.


Play basketball in the NBA. More specifically, shooting, finishing and all around scoring, as well as athleticism.

Kornet looks promising, but I'm not willing to pronounce it a fact that he's a better player based on a single preseason game or that + a few games vs Chicago last season. At every step of their college and pro career, Lauri has been a better player than Luke. That could possibly (but unlikely) change, but it hasn't based on a preseason games or a few games vs a single team.


I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:


I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#744 » by logical_art » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:21 pm

ZOMG wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
logical_art wrote:
Play basketball in the NBA. More specifically, shooting, finishing and all around scoring, as well as athleticism.

Kornet looks promising, but I'm not willing to pronounce it a fact that he's a better player based on a single preseason game or that + a few games vs Chicago last season. At every step of their college and pro career, Lauri has been a better player than Luke. That could possibly (but unlikely) change, but it hasn't based on a preseason games or a few games vs a single team.


I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:


I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.


You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#745 » by SfBull » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 pm

ZOMG wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
logical_art wrote:
Play basketball in the NBA. More specifically, shooting, finishing and all around scoring, as well as athleticism.

Kornet looks promising, but I'm not willing to pronounce it a fact that he's a better player based on a single preseason game or that + a few games vs Chicago last season. At every step of their college and pro career, Lauri has been a better player than Luke. That could possibly (but unlikely) change, but it hasn't based on a preseason games or a few games vs a single team.


I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:


I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.

Luke can be the new Nwaba for the Bulls.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#746 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:35 pm

logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
I guess his point is Luke is playing better than Lauri right now. which is true for the one preseason game they played together..... :roll:


I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.


You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.


One preseason game? Nah.

1) Kornet was doing excellent work in New York last season, and I was intrigued by him even then. He was super light on his feet, had a beautiful shot and was always a block threat. I remember thinking, "What REALLY makes Lauri better than this guy, other than having been drafted higher (hell, Kornet went undrafted) and being more photogenic?"

2) Lauri suffered from these same problems all last season. Slow, stiff, unable to post up, 3pt shot comes and goes, no rim protection. Absolutely nothing has changed.

Markkanen might yet put it all together, who knows. It's just that I don't believe in miracles. Kornet and Lauri both picked up where they left off last season, and their trajectories are heading in opposite directions.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#747 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:42 pm

ZOMG wrote:
logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.


You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.


One preseason game? Nah.

1) Kornet was doing excellent work in New York last season, and I was intrigued by him even then. I remember thinking, "What REALLY makes Lauri better than this guy, other than having been drafted higher (hell, Kornet went undrafted) and being more photogenic?"

2) Lauri suffered from these same problems all last season. Slow, stiff, unable to post up, 3pt shot comes and goes, no rim protection. Absolutely nothing has changed.

Markkanen might yet put it all together, who knows. It's just that I don't believe in miracles. Kornet and Lauri both picked up where they left off last season, and their trajectories are heading in opposite directions.




Lauri showed what he can be as a #1 focus last Feb. Now was that a hot streak, we will see. I won't discount that due to two pre season games. Like I said I am reserving judgement until maybe 10 games into the regular season. I agree he has been playing poorly but again, preseason.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#748 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:47 pm

I guess if Februlauri didn't happen last season, I would be concerned by his play so far this preseason but then again, we probably wouldn't have such high expectations for him coming into this season in that case.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#749 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:48 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
logical_art wrote:
You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.


One preseason game? Nah.

1) Kornet was doing excellent work in New York last season, and I was intrigued by him even then. I remember thinking, "What REALLY makes Lauri better than this guy, other than having been drafted higher (hell, Kornet went undrafted) and being more photogenic?"

2) Lauri suffered from these same problems all last season. Slow, stiff, unable to post up, 3pt shot comes and goes, no rim protection. Absolutely nothing has changed.

Markkanen might yet put it all together, who knows. It's just that I don't believe in miracles. Kornet and Lauri both picked up where they left off last season, and their trajectories are heading in opposite directions.




Lauri showed what he can be as a #1 focus last Feb. Now was that a hot streak, we will see. I won't discount that due to two pre season games. Like I said I am reserving judgement until maybe 10 games into the regular season. I agree he has been playing poorly but again, preseason.


Yeah. I'm not trying to be a contrarian here. I'm happy we have Kornet now - he has a dirt cheap contract and is probably one of the best value for money guys in the League.

The fact is that Kornet can easily play PF for this team. He's not much of a ballhandler but by God, neither is Lauri. I hope Lauri realizes that if he doesn't get his s**t together, he might well start losing playing time. We're trying to win this season, there should be no unearned minutes.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#750 » by logical_art » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:49 pm

ZOMG wrote:
logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
I don't care if Lauri has some individual skills that are better than Kornet in a vacuum (he probably does). Basketball isn't played in a vacuum. For one reason or another, Lauri is having trouble fitting in with the team's new style of play. Kornet? He fits fine.

Kornet is at least as good an outside shooter, much more active, MUCH longer (putting him in another class as a rim protector), and a good passer. Lauri might be a bit quicker... and that's about it.

Lauri is a good guy but there's no guarantees in this league. We've seen many occasions where unheralded dudes have joined teams and eventually stolen starting positions. Maybe Lauri needs a true wake-up call.


You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.


One preseason game? Nah.

1) Kornet was doing excellent work in New York last season, and I was intrigued by him even then. He was super light on his feet, had a beautiful shot and was always a block threat. I remember thinking, "What REALLY makes Lauri better than this guy, other than having been drafted higher (hell, Kornet went undrafted) and being more photogenic?"

2) Lauri suffered from these same problems all last season. Slow, stiff, unable to post up, 3pt shot comes and goes, no rim protection. Absolutely nothing has changed.

Markkanen might yet put it all together, who knows. It's just that I don't believe in miracles. Kornet and Lauri both picked up where they left off last season, and their trajectories are heading in opposite directions.


OK so you're basing it on having seen Kornet a couple of times in your life. Still an awfully small sample. Lauri has outproduced Luke at every step of his career. That may change and you seem to think it will, but so far it's clearly no a fact that Luke is a better player than Lauri.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#751 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:49 pm

Also, John Collins, Lauri's peer and rival from his draft class, has had a putrid preseason so far (much much worse than lauri). Are people as down on him as some are on Lauri?

---
Digging into Collins a bit more, he's been hurt so I guess not a fair comparison
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#752 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:00 pm

logical_art wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
logical_art wrote:
You realize this is based on one preseason game? Way too soon.


One preseason game? Nah.

1) Kornet was doing excellent work in New York last season, and I was intrigued by him even then. He was super light on his feet, had a beautiful shot and was always a block threat. I remember thinking, "What REALLY makes Lauri better than this guy, other than having been drafted higher (hell, Kornet went undrafted) and being more photogenic?"

2) Lauri suffered from these same problems all last season. Slow, stiff, unable to post up, 3pt shot comes and goes, no rim protection. Absolutely nothing has changed.

Markkanen might yet put it all together, who knows. It's just that I don't believe in miracles. Kornet and Lauri both picked up where they left off last season, and their trajectories are heading in opposite directions.


OK so you're basing it on having seen Kornet a couple of times in your life. Still an awfully small sample. Lauri has outproduced Luke at every step of his career. That may change and you seem to think it will, but so far it's clearly no a fact that Luke is a better player than Lauri.


Lauri got an amazing opportunity to play a lot of minutes as a rookie and, to be fair, he used it well. Luke's path to the League was more complicated, but once he got here, he didn't hesitate. In a sense, even though Kornet is a bit older, he's still at the stage where he's trying to make a name for himself. That's why Lauri shouldn't relax too much.

As I explained earlier, it almost doesn't make sense to compare these guys individually straight up because they're both such team-oriented players. It just feels like Kornet is pretty much an ideal 4/5 for this team IF they keep playing like they did against the Pels. We NEED some true rim protection, and Luke provides that.

Naturally I'm hoping that Markkanen finds his FebruLauri groove once again and proves that he deserves to start.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#753 » by bad knees » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:16 pm

If we are talking about who Luke might replace in the starting lineup, I'd focus more on WCJ than Lauri. Having five shooters and still having that rim protection/shot blocking - man, I'm salivating already. I think it's WCJ who needs to be making sure (a) that he's healthy and available; and (b) that he starts to show that 3 pt shooting that he showed in college.

According to KC, in a 5 minute stint in the second quarter last night, the Bulls scored 20 points with Sato, White, LaVine, Markkanen and Kornet on the floor. Five out, baby. Who's going to stop Zach from getting to the basket? No one. And all those kickouts. And Coby being able to drive as well. Could be fun.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-ball-movement-stands-out-loss-zion-williamsons-pelicans
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#754 » by kulaz3000 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:16 pm

I'm stunned and yet not surprised that there are many people bagging on Lauri and pumping up a role player after a handful of preseason games. I think once the regular season starts, people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the progress that Lauri has made.

I will say this though, the fact that we have a talent on our bench which some are hoping to replace one of our starters, means that we have talent across the board which is refreshing, and something we haven't really been able to ponder or discuss about in recent years.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#755 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:19 pm

bad knees wrote:If we are talking about who Luke might replace in the starting lineup, I'd focus more on WCJ than Lauri. Having five shooters and still having that rim protection/shot blocking - man, I'm salivating already. I think it's WCJ who needs to be making sure (a) that he's healthy and available; and (b) that he starts to show that 3 pt shooting that he showed in college.


Absolutely agree (as I wrote in the rotation thread). I was focusing on Lauri mainly because Carter's been out AND Lauri has looked pretty bad.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#756 » by kapo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:33 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:Did a little film breakdown of the 1st quarter. 16 videos in the thread. Some really great stuff on offense.

Read on Twitter


It’s a good set but worrisome that Lauri struggles so much generating easy mid-range baskets.

You can argue that the first 75% of Hoiberg’s sets would run well, but it’s the finish that counts. Besides Otto’s versatility inside-out and Zach’s ability to make contested bombs, I’m still uncomfortable with this roster’s inability to generate easy baskets.


Only thing this play shows is that Felicio doesn't need to be defended on p&r so what is the point of playing it with Felicio?
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#757 » by Robin Jones » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:36 pm

Hey, this is just two PRESEASON games and many writers are already abandoning Lauri.

Anyway, if someone wants to make season long predictions based on these TWO PRESEASON games, let's crunch some numbers:

Chicago is -12 in these two games. Lauri is +8, and many of these minutes with Felicio, who has very bad +/- numbers. Not happending with Wendell.

Lauri has played on average 23:12 min. Let's adjust the numbers to 36 min per game and his stat line is:

20.2 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 4.7 APG(!) vs 1.6 TOPG, 0.8 SPG, 0 BPG, +12.4 in +/-. 3P% 42.9 and TS% 54.2.

Not so bad anymore.

I am not worried at all, especially with this sample size.

Three point shooting and assists are actually looking very good.

Rebounding could be slightly better and of course he needs to go inside more and get freethrows too.

He is stronger, which is good.

He will never be a shotblocker. Was someone really expecting him to be?

Only one thing is a question mark in my mind: It seems that everytime he has spent some training time with the Finnish national team, he runs much faster and seem to move quicker. After more time in Chicago, he seems to get a bit slower, or am I wrong in this ? If not, is this about relative amount of basketball training overall, different types of strenght programs, fatique, level of self-confidence, team's playing style, Lauri's role in the team, or something else?

In any case, I think that Lauri's strenght, when he plays well, is his quickness and ability to run the floor compared to most other 7-footers. He should try to maintain this, even improve.

To sum up, I am not worried at all with regards to Lauri's season 2019-20. Nothing indicates that he cannot be 20.0 - 22.0 PPG, 8.0-9.0 RPG, 2.0+ APG guy with 40+ 3P% and 55+ TS%. With this type of statline in his third year he is well on his way to become a star player in this league.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#758 » by Ice Man » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:02 pm

538 rates Lauri as a better player than Zach. That isits 2019-2020 projection. Not saying that 538 is right, but all these confident statements about how anybody who watches basketball can see that Zach is better is demonstrably false. The people at 538 watch basketball and they believe otherwise.
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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#759 » by Red Larrivee » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:09 pm

NWIBullsFan wrote:
Remember Lu wrote:One thing I learned about preseason threads is that negative takes get shushed down as "it's only preseason, stop over reacting".

But positive takes aren't met with the same dismissiveness


Red Larrivee wrote:
ZOMG wrote:Kornet is a better basketball player than Markkanen right now. This is a fact.


Lord.

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There you go.

The negative is so over-the-top, that's why it gets shot down.

Seriously - "Kornet is a better basketball player than Markkanen right now. This is a fact"???

If the positive were "Did you see Zach easily score 28 in only 24 minutes? He's a no-doubt 1st-Team All-NBA this season guaranteed!!!"

Especially when you see what he's doing Per36??

34.4 Pts
7.0 Reb
4.7 Ast
1.57 Stl
.517 FG
.538 3pt% (6.5 att)
.700 FT (5.0 att)
.659 TS%

Easy top-3 MVP voting. Right?

If anyone says that seriously, and it isn't met with dismissiveness, I'll believe you that "positive takes aren't met with the same dismissiveness".


Making extreme takes in either direction because of preseason isn't wise. However, Lauri's been getting dragged with exaggerations since the game ended. Not really surprising since some do the same thing with Summer League.

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Re: Pelicans @ Bulls - Preseason Game #2 Thread 

Post#760 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:22 pm

Ice Man wrote:538 rates Lauri as a better player than Zach. That isits 2019-2020 projection. Not saying that 538 is right, but all these confident statements about how anybody who watches basketball can see that Zach is better is demonstrably false. The people at 538 watch basketball and they believe otherwise.


Well I am pretty sure 538 uses stats for those results vs "watching basketball" but yeah most stats still indicate (even in the preseason) that Lauri has a much greater positive impact compared to Lavine.

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