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Offensive observation

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Ayman78
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Offensive observation 

Post#1 » by Ayman78 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:43 am

I recognize that this style is a little outdated for the league, but in the position the Bulls are in their team development I really think the Bulls should start the game with set post ups by Lauri Markkanen and Wendell Carter. This approach IMHO would really help get Lauri and Wendell to get into the game which would relive
pressure from Zach and Otto. This team has quality 3pt shooters, but an inside out approach would help the bugs to get really engaged and make things easier for the rest of the team. What say you? Are these just the musings of an old man.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#2 » by patagonia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:47 am

I find your observation offensive.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#3 » by MrSparkle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:49 am

Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#4 » by Ayman78 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:55 am

MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

If Lauri is incapable of being a post up treat then his upside gets a lot lower, and possibly limits him to a highly skilled role player.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#5 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:08 am

Honestly the bulls offense was looking beautiful for a lot of this game especially when Felecio was off the court.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#6 » by Indomitable » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:10 am

MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

Miami
Boston
Golden State
Sacramento
Indy
LA
Cleveland
New Orleans
Dallas
Detroit
Washington

All have starting center about his height. He is within 2 inch of 10 other teams.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#7 » by MrSparkle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 am

Indomitable wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

Miami
Boston
Golden State
Sacramento
Indy
LA
Cleveland
New Orleans
Dallas
Detroit
Washington

All have starting center about his height. He is within 2 inch of 10 other teams.


Embiid and Jokic are the most talented big centers in a long time, and even they do half or more of their damage from the perimeter or mid-range. Posting up Wendell and Lauri to start off a game would be like driving a car into a wall. What you really want to do is find a PG or develop Coby into a true PnR threat with both Lauri and Wendell, cause that should be their bread and butter.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#8 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:25 am

I don't like this idea. Neither is a good one on one post player right now.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#9 » by Indomitable » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:28 am

MrSparkle wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

Miami
Boston
Golden State
Sacramento
Indy
LA
Cleveland
New Orleans
Dallas
Detroit
Washington

All have starting center about his height. He is within 2 inch of 10 other teams.


Embiid and Jokic are the most talented big centers in a long time, and even they do half or more of their damage from the perimeter or mid-range. Posting up Wendell and Lauri to start off a game would be like driving a car into a wall. What you really want to do is find a PG or develop Coby into a true PnR threat with both Lauri and Wendell, cause that should be their bread and butter.

Did I ever suggest it? He could do it but why
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#10 » by mack2354 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:02 am

Robin Lopez was a better post player than both of our guys and we went to him in the post often last year. We sucked last year.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#11 » by meekrab » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:19 am

mack2354 wrote:Robin Lopez was a better post player than both of our guys and we went to him in the post often last year. We sucked last year.

We went to him in the post often because we sucked, not the other way around.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#12 » by bledredwine » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:28 pm

patagonia wrote:I find your observation offensive.


In his defense, Lauri is an offensive player.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#13 » by CoreyVillains » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:36 pm

The offense is going to be very good if last night was any indication of the type of sets we will be running. It was the kind of stuff that Fred wishes they could have executed. I broke down the 1st quarter of the game in the below thread. 16 videos in all, some defensive, but mostly offense.

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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#14 » by 23-7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:53 pm

Ayman78 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

If Lauri is incapable of being a post up treat then his upside gets a lot lower, and possibly limits him to a highly skilled role player.



Most Centers aren't 7'1, stop it
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#15 » by MrSparkle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:03 pm

23-7 wrote:
Ayman78 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Lauri could not post up a PG.

Wendell is about 3” shorter than most starting centers.

Sorry but these guys must BOTH shoot the ball very well from mid-range and the arc.

Otto at SF is probably the only true post threat, along with Wendell on switches.

If Lauri is incapable of being a post up treat then his upside gets a lot lower, and possibly limits him to a highly skilled role player.



Most Centers aren't 7'1, stop it


Something tells me WCJ is not going to be 6’10 once these new measurements are listed.

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http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/year/2019

Also look at that list of 50 centers in order of PER. Overwhelmingly Carter is in the smaller tier: Horford, Randle, Turner, etc. Fringe PF size.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#16 » by 23-7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 pm

He's already been measured.He went to the combine 6'10 with shoes, with long arms
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#17 » by ZOMG » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:21 pm

23-7 wrote:He's already been measured.He went to the combine 6'10 with shoes, with long arms


Yup, Carter has always looked like a 6'9'' guy.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#18 » by musiqsoulchild » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:24 pm

Size doesnt determine a players ability to post up. Skill does.

At present, we have maybe Thad who can do this. And thats about it.
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#19 » by 23-7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:57 pm

Porter can too
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Re: Offensive observation 

Post#20 » by kodo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:36 pm

Generally, Post-up is among the least productive possession types, similar to isolation. It's really just an isolation with your back to the basket, the end result best case being a contested shot while other play types seek unconstested shots.

Last year the entire league averaged between 0.74 points per possession to 1.01 ppp. The Bulls were 0.92 ppp.
Versus Spot Up Jump shots, the league was 0.92 to 1.12. The Bulls were 0.98.
Versus Transition, the league was 0.99 to 1.19. The Bulls were 1.08.
Versus Iso, the league was 0.76 to 1.06. The Bulls were 0.82.

Post up can still make sense if you have an very talented post up player, like James Harden who was 1.21 ppp or developing great post up player like Towns who was 1.02 ppp. Neither Lauri nor Wendell showed much promise in the post. Lauri was was 0.86 ppp and Wendell was 0.63.

We got a good view of how the two styles contrasted when Boylen hard switched from a post-up centric offense pre-Feb to a normal transition to jump shot offense in Feb.

In Jan, the Bulls offense was among the league worst at 27th.
In Feb, the Bulls were the 2nd best offensive in the league.
https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=5

The other "bonus" of transition/jump shot offense is that it's easier for bench & roleplayers to run. Bulls lost two preseason games because the other team with their scrubs ran a simple run-fast-and-jack-up-a-3. Every few possessions, that 3 will go in. The Bulls scrubs tried to run plays and basically failed 5, 6, 7 possessions in a row going on scoring droughts lasting almost a quarter.

Even Kris Dunn has a higher eFG% from 3 than he does inside the 3 point arc. There's nobody on this other than Lavine (and probably Gafford) that scores so well inside it warrants an offense that tries to go inside as a first option.

The other factor is our passing situation. Teams with talented passers like Rondo or Cp3 may have a good reason to feed the post or run lob plays for bigs. We don't have anyone even half as good as either passer. Some of our lob plays vs Milwaukee were cringe worthy, sailing out of bounds. If Gafford wasn't as talented a leaper as he was none of our lob attempts would have connected.

The team's strengths just don't seem to be posting up or passing.

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