What does Lauri need to show for you to want to give him a MAX deal? - Merged

[the ultimates]

He needs to take and make mid-range shots because how else is he really going to score besides waiting at the three-point line. He should be a good enough shooter to were he can make it a legit part of his game. He needs the mid-range because it's clear despite his height and high release defenders crowding him makes him uncomfortable to shoot or put it on the floor. He doesn't have the first step or handle to get buy those defenders and get to the rim or paint. When setting screens he rarely dives to the basket and we know he has trouble in the post.

Nobody wants him to shot jack, people want to see him do something offensively other than wait to be passed the ball at the three-point line. I don't get the baseball analogy because the slugger who walks in an RBI situation is still making the pitcher work. Lauri camping around the three-point line isn't making his defender or the defense work.

[MrSparkle]

Lauri and Thad are having career-low seasons.

Both are PFs.

I dunno, but maybe the system isn’t doing them favors.

[the ultimates]

Lauri and Thad are having career-low seasons.

Both are PFs.

I dunno, but maybe the system isn’t doing them favors.

What should be changed in the offense for Lauri? What skill do you feel isn't being emphasized?

[NoPassLook]

The more I watch him this season, the more he reminds me of a disciplined hitter in baseball who has a high on base % who is criticized by some who believe that he's too willing to "take the walk" when the team needs him to drive in a run. The hitter responds to the criticism with the question, "So you want me to swing at pitches that are out of the strike zone?" Markkanen could ask, "Do you want me to force up bad shots?"

More than any player on the Bulls, Markkanen seems to have taken to heart the analytics-driven "layups and 3s" definition of what constitutes a good shot (LaVine, White and Young also seem to buy in, but to a lesser degree). 28% of Markkanen's shots this season have been taken from 0-3 feet and 53% have been 3-pointers. No other Bull who shoots any kind of volume can claim that 4 out of every 5 shots they take match the analytics-favored profile.

The thing is, if the Bulls only needed Markkanen to be a 4th offensive option, we'd probably be OK with his heightened selectivity, but the Bulls badly need him to be their 2nd offensive option and a strong 2nd. Further, addressing the OP question, while taking only disciplined shots favored by the analytics folks may please the statisticians, it's not a good way to get yourself a max contract because points do matter.

Lauri has obviously gone too far with the analytics. I don’t remember when was the last time he took a long two before yesterday’s shot over Love.

If you look at the stats he has taken only 5 two-pointers from beyond 15 ft whole season. That is definitely part of his game to at least look for the jumper there to open up driving lanes. He isn’t as effective when driving from the 3 point line as defenses have more time to rotate.

It's not about the analytics. Markkanen tries his full offensive arsenal at the beginning of the season, namely the first two months, and sucks ball at it. I have made multiple comments about how Markkanen is an auto brick for challenged shots, off the dribble shots, or post-up moves. He is also an auto turnover when he tries to drive to the basketball. His stats took a hit.

Then, he CHOOSES to take only wide open shots in order to boost his percentage and be like a Kyle Korver. Lauri Markkanen playing like Kyle Korver is his own decision and action bc he has failed to improve his overall game in the summer. He deserves all of the criticisms and so far hasn't answered back to the haters. Instead, he has shrunk his nuts and exposed his overall softness. The kid is just a big and lazy seven footer who will be nothing more than a Ryan Anderson stiff in his prime.

Wow, you truly are clueless.

[MeloRoseNoah]

Lauri and Thad are having career-low seasons.

Both are PFs.

I dunno, but maybe the system isn’t doing them favors.

What should be changed in the offense for Lauri? What skill do you feel isn't being emphasized?

Both of them just suck donkey. To be honest, Thaddeus Young over Markkanen would marginally help us win more games.

For the first time in his career, Markkanen is expected to improve, take the mantle as as Alpha, and lead us to victories. Instead, he has shrunk his nuts. He is nothing more than a bum slayer.

I haven’t seen a single noticeable skill improvement from Markkanen from his rookie year. That’s a testament to his immaturity and priorities in life.

[MrSparkle]

Lauri and Thad are having career-low seasons.

Both are PFs.

I dunno, but maybe the system isn’t doing them favors.

What should be changed in the offense for Lauri? What skill do you feel isn't being emphasized?

Both of them just suck donkey. To be honest, Thaddeus Young over Markkanen would marginally help us win more games.

For the first time in his career, Markkanen is expected to improve, take the mantle as as Alpha, and lead us to victories. Instead, he has shrunk his nuts. He is nothing more than a bum slayer.

I haven’t seen a single noticeable skill improvement from Markkanen from his rookie year. That’s a testament to his immaturity and priorities in life.

I don't think it's a "1-stop fix." I think the entire system and rotations should be flipped. I thought this in pre-season/October, and that sentiment hasn't changed. FWIW, I also at no point saw Zach/Lauri/Wendell as a "trio" - I saw them as 3 incompatible parts since last Jan., when the Lauri/Wendell pairing already looked mediocre on both ends (small sample size, but I didn't like what I saw). So with that out the way....

1. Zach and Lauri should be staggered more.

2. Lauri needs a playmaking PG, and he needs screens.

Pick and rolls. Horns. The Hoiberg sets made Lauri look like a better player. They were stupid when Jerian Grant, Payne, and Dunn were the primary guard rotation, but now there are shooters on the perimeter who can run a PnR, but not create in iso, yet they are playing iso basketball. I feel like this "opposite of what's best for the players" hammer has been hitting my head since Thibodeau was fired, and it's hurting.

We're playing like the Rockets. It makes no sense to me. They're emulating a terrible-to-watch basketball team that "gets by" with the best iso 3P shooter of all-time, which we have a very, very poor man's version of... and not to mention their very athletic and fast front-court. If they want to do that, then they should trade Lauri today for Mo Harkless or Gerald Green and call it a wrap.

Again I'm not saying that Lauri should be playing like Dirk, but he's just sinking more and more. Boylen has him hustling like a maniac on blitz and switch defense, he's missing every rebound, he's clearly burned out by every 2nd half. He is being misused.

Just like Thad, who frankly should probably be starting. If I was the coach, this is the line-up I would've played in October, with the emphasis on running the ball fast, attacking the basket aggressively, and generating a lot of points in the paint off cuts.

Coby
Zach
Otto (Sato due to injury)
Thad
Carter

2nd line-up: Arch-Lauri subs. 3rd: Dunn-Hutch-Gafford (defense).

Yes, I said Thad should start over Lauri. This is Paxson's stupid old trick of bringing in or keeping vets who are BETTER full-time starters and fits than the young guys he's "building around" who also need full-time starter minutes to DEVELOP.

You read the comments by players, and you can tell they're bugged. They're just being cordial and professional.

THAD: “I mean, yeah, it should be," he said. "We have different things that we’re trying to do. We’re trying to develop guys and we’re trying to win at the same time. But at the end of the day … (Young paused and nodded his head) ... yes, I would like to play more minutes. But if I’m playing 20 minutes a game, within those 20 minutes I’m going to try to give somebody hell.”

I'll translate - the whole situation is bull****. It was bull**** for Lopez, it was garbage for Taj at the end of his Bulls tenure, it was garbage for Noah when they brought Pau in. You don't bring in FULL-TIME STARTERS to compete for minutes. It's stupid. On a tangent, Captain Jackass (Pax) could've actually brought in a full-time starter to back up Rose, who had missed 80% of his games in 3 years, but I guess Cap'n Kirk on crutches and Brooks were enough, especially since Snell and McDermott were such a fine wing rotation to secure the perimeter.

And then to make things worse, they've taken away Thad's mid-range/post shots and Lauri's midrange, cause of analytics, and they've taken out most PnR variations of plays... cause they're too complicated I guess? Or is that analytics too? Is it really better for Arci to play the role of a 3D wing while being a 6'1 PG?

I can go on about how stupid this FO and coaching staff are compared to the MEDIAN rest of the league. Fine, Boylen knows a hell a lot more about basketball than anybody posting on this board, but plain and simple, he's perhaps the worst coach in the league. He decided to teach guys how to D up aggressively, and it doesn't work for this roster.

It's turning Lauri's knees into jello, and perhaps he wasn't gonna be a star to begin with... But I guarantee Amare and Dirk don't play great basketball in this system. Those guys were allergic to defense and rebounds. Grinding them out with blitz defense traps would've worn them out. Then you ask them to create iso opportunities from the 3P line, the few times they got the ball, and otherwise park in a corner and wait for a pass from Zach Lavine? I feel like I'm unintentionally doing jokes at a stand-up routine here. That'd be the equivalent of asking Q-Rich to deliver Amare some sweet assists, or Jason Terry to Dirk.

Again, I'm not saying Lauri is on those guys' level, but it'd also be stupid and unfair to say that he never showed the ceiling of an all-star prospect. He did, he's just falling (far) short of it. But he's also being mis-utilized, and that's why his numbers are plateau'd/worse than when he was a rookie. I don't think it's on scouting. He's a 7-ft shooter with a good attitude. It can't be that hard to find a play that generates a comfortable look for him.

I kind of choked on my coffee when I read "multi ball-handler system." I was thinking to myself, "How about we find one guy besides a G-League caliber player (Arci) who can actually deliver a solid assist?"

If you want Lauri to deliver, then make him play like a PF who catches passes from PGs in motion.

Now his personal development as a player? That's another conversation. He needs to learn how to rebound, box out and play inside the paint on both ends. But that doesn't mean you can't help showcase his offensive strengths more.

[MrSparkle]

Lastly, I'll add... not everybody has Jimmy's attitude. But he's a pretty decent and extreme example of, "Hey the player was right to speak up about the coaching."

Obviously nobody on this roster has that type of ego or mean streak to hit the press and throw Boylen under the bus (although I guess they kind of did after that Celtics hockey sub player meeting debacle).

But you know fans... they get pissed at players when they speak up, get pissed at players when they're not helped by the coach/personnel... hard balance to get right here in Chicago, unless they play like undisputed MVPs and injure themselves by diving into the stands. And then after those dives end their careers early (Noah, Kirk, Deng), they become vet min scrubs at 30yo, you wonder if it was all worth it.

But anyway, I kind of miss the drama. I'd prefer if Lauri or Thad spoke up. At this point though, Lauri should just get up and "break the system" if it's binding him that much. Take the mid-range shots or call for a screen, or tell Dunn/Arci that you want a PnR set. You have Gill's and Perdue's blessing.

It's really important to remind everybody ... that the only thing worse than this present situation, is a major injury happening to Lauri, Zach or Coby.

Losing more games? Better draft pick. Hopefully an FO/Coaching house-cleaning. *Party*

Winning more games, going on a crazy win streak? Well OK I won't complain if these guys learn how to score as well as the Rockets. Still, you know they'll stand pat and regress. This core sucks and a 13-16 pick is going to be another James Thabo Johnson McDermott the 3rd. *Puke*

Staying the course? We're ending as a 9-12 seed, with a #9-13 pick in a weak draft. *Puke*

It's in the players' and Chicago's best interests to start breaking from the offensive system. Might result in some nasty blowout losses, but that's OK in this pitiful case.

[Leslie Forman]

Lauri and Thad are having career-low seasons.

Both are PFs.

I dunno, but maybe the system isn’t doing them favors.

Young will end up just fine. His minutes-adjusted production is virtually identical to what it was in Indiana, he just couldn't hit a damn shot. Now in December he's actually making shots and his efficiency has shot up.

[Jiipee84]

Bulls don't need pay nothing for Lauri if they are seriously considering Lauri's trade.
And being honest it would be only good to let Lauri go.

In my eyes Lauri hasn't looked happy in Bulls this season something bothers him and badly.
And the fact is that talent and potential what Lauri has doesn't vanish just like that in one season.

[sco]

Bulls don't need pay nothing for Lauri if they are seriously considering Lauri's trade.
And being honest it would be only good to let Lauri go.

In my eyes Lauri hasn't looked happy in Bulls this season something bothers him and badly.
And the fact is that talent and potential what Lauri has doesn't vanish just like that in one season.

I agree Lauri is probably unhappy - but what professional player who is on a bad team and not playing his best is gonna feel differently. I had hoped we'd have a competent roster this season and see how Zach and Lauri performed with decent players. Didn't happen (again). I am against selling low on Lauri, but if we got equal talent and/or a decent pick back, I'd sure consider it. I expect the FO will keep him and try again next year to make things work.

[Jiipee84]

Bulls don't need pay nothing for Lauri if they are seriously considering Lauri's trade.
And being honest it would be only good to let Lauri go.

In my eyes Lauri hasn't looked happy in Bulls this season something bothers him and badly.
And the fact is that talent and potential what Lauri has doesn't vanish just like that in one season.

I agree Lauri is probably unhappy - but what professional player who is on a bad team and not playing his best is gonna feel differently. I had hoped we'd have a competent roster this season and see how Zach and Lauri performed with decent players. Didn't happen (again). I am against selling low on Lauri, but if we got equal talent and/or a decent pick back, I'd sure consider it. I expect the FO will keep him and try again next year to make things work.

Lauri and Zach can play well same time if they want it that last February's game vs Celtics was good example.
In that game both were active and scored double-digits Zach scored +40 points and Lauri 35 points.
Zach gave a lot good passes for Lauri and Lauri scored many wide-open 3 pointers.

This seasons first game vs Hornets Lauri scored 35 points and 17rebs meanwhile Zach struggled badly.
Something happened absolutely after that game but what it was.

Did Boylen say something rude for Lauri because Zach struggled.
Or was Zach pissed on that Lauri had good game and he played badly.

It can't by no means be a coincidence after one great game player like Markkanen starts struggle
and regressing so badly what he's done this season.

Truth is this.
The talent and potential what Lauri has in his game doesn't vanish just like that in one season or even after one good game.

What ever bothers Lauri he needs to get over that.
But how get over something if you don't exactly know what's wrong.

There might be many reasons why Lauri looks unhappy.
Like is his marriage OK, how's his son is he healthy or not, or is it something else like outside court issues.

Everyone knows that Chicago is most violent cities in USA and in the world.
Finnish child families put a lot value on that what-kind of neighborhood they live.

All things which are related to violence, guns, murders, gang shootings etc security issues are hugely negative.
Yes this sounds odd but maybe these things are coming a factor on that why Lauri perhaps is starting look elsewhere in NBA.
But being honest those things shouldn't affect so much Lauri's game.

[FranchisePlayer]

Some funny, memorable comments to quote in here now that we know for certain he's played injured for a while. I'll save a few posters from the embarrassment...

Now that he's out for a long time and the Bulls will probably suck even more, his value probably goes up in the eyes of the FO.

[Hold That]

Trade him to the Nuggets for MPJ

[Louri]

Interesting 4-6 weeks. Lauri has made players like Lavine/other players game easier just by standing in the corner. Can’t wait to see more proof in the next games. His presence can’t be seen in boxsxore.

[Dez]

Interesting 4-6 weeks. Lauri has made players like Lavine/other players game easier just by standing in the corner. Can’t wait to see more proof in the next games. His presence can’t be seen in boxsxore.

You do realize the Bulls are missing more than Lauri right?

[Mbrahv0528]

Interesting 4-6 weeks. Lauri has made players like Lavine/other players game easier just by standing in the corner. Can’t wait to see more proof in the next games. His presence can’t be seen in boxsxore.

You do realize the Bulls are missing more than Lauri right?

I'm fairly certain his point was that Lauri missing was evident right off the bat. Whether that means it's a one game type thing or a trend remains to be seen though.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[Bandit King]

Lauri still a bum fragile soft bum with no post moves and can't rebound a basketball.

[sami71]

When it's all said and done in 15 or so years playing professionally, Lauri is going to look at some of the choices he made, or that were made for him as a youngster, and hopefully he can cope and not become too bitter.

He decided to get a family very early or at least he had a say in it, he decided to become a dad at the point of his career that he did, he decided to go to Finland for Summers, he decided to go vegain etc. I don't know, but I would be surprised if the whys of all these aren't tied into a bigger picture which I have in mind, and it is not a pretty picture.

He is trying to do too much in much too short a time. And he really really (really) underestimated the sacrifices it would have taken to make it as a star in the NBA. Or perhaps just making it to NBA was enough for he and his wife. Maybe they thought it was the right time to start concentrating on other things. Which he clearly _did_, with veganism etc. Flame away. The proof is right there, he did not develop at all. At all. He regressed.

Finland is not a basketball nation. Going back to his old circle of Dettmann and his dad for advice instead of NBA level coaching and training equals the easy way, the no sacrifices way. The reasoning behind going back to Finland for summers is the key. He should have been taking the next steps in Chicago or with Hakeem or with whatever is best for his basketball career, training like mad. But he came back to Finland. It is not the only mistake he has made but I bet the reason is the same is with the other ones and therefore that is the key to understanding why it all went South for him.

As soon as he is healthy he should be traded and hopefully there is still some value to salvage. His priorities are messed up or they are not his priorities at all. In either case trade him.

[Bullstuff]

When did Lauri become vegan? I only ever heard him announce he stopped eating red meat. That still leaves fish, poultry and milk products on the table, which keeps him pretty far from being 'he decided to go vegain etc.'.

[TallDude]

When it's all said and done in 15 or so years playing professionally, Lauri is going to look at some of the choices he made, or that were made for him as a youngster, and hopefully he can cope and not become too bitter.

He decided to get a family very early or at least he had a say in it, he decided to become a dad at the point of his career that he did, he decided to go to Finland for Summers, he decided to go vegain etc. I don't know, but I would be surprised if the whys of all these aren't tied into a bigger picture which I have in mind, and it is not a pretty picture.

He is trying to do too much in much too short a time. And he really really (really) underestimated the sacrifices it would have taken to make it as a star in the NBA. Or perhaps just making it to NBA was enough for he and his wife. Maybe they thought it was the right time to start concentrating on other things. Which he clearly _did_, with veganism etc. Flame away. The proof is right there, he did not develop at all. At all. He regressed.

Finland is not a basketball nation. Going back to his old circle of Dettmann and his dad for advice instead of NBA level coaching and training equals the easy way, the no sacrifices way. The reasoning behind going back to Finland for summers is the key. He should have been taking the next steps in Chicago or with Hakeem or with whatever is best for his basketball career, training like mad. But he came back to Finland. It is not the only mistake he has made but I bet the reason is the same is with the other ones and therefore that is the key to understanding why it all went South for him.

As soon as he is healthy he should be traded and hopefully there is still some value to salvage. His priorities are messed up or they are not his priorities at all. In either case trade him.

Well almost every Finn (who follow basketball) wants Lauri out of Chicago now. Also i do. If FO goes with Boylen Lauri could stay. I think Lauri can see this roster is not winning anything ever. Same goes Lavine. He plays mostly himself not for team.