What does Lauri need to show for you to want to give him a MAX deal? - Merged

[Leslie Forman]

This was discussed some time ago. People always pay attention to Lauri's post-ups far from the basket and get mad at him for not "backing down" his defender, who's usually a smaller guy. Ummm... if you've ever played basketball, you'll know that the defender has a HUGE advantage in those situations, particularly if he has a lower center of gravity. It's the same reason why Arci can look like he can stop a PF from backing him down once in a while.

In reality, Lauri doesn't get pushed around by guards.

He's not a naturally aggressive rebounder, but that's an instinct/skill thing, not power.

He can't back down guys the same size as him, but he also can't back down guys shorter than him. So who the hell can he back down? Oh yeah, nobody. And yes, he is a poor rebounder in terms of instincts, he's also poor because he's freakin' soft and weak as Charmin. He routinely gets pushed out the way under the rim by players much smaller than him for rebounds.

Look at the starting 4s of the top 4 teams in the East right now, presumably the teams you'd have to go through to ever advance in the playoffs:
Giannis
Siakam
Tatum
Bam

What is Markkanen doing against these guys? He is completely useless against any of them.

I've just never seen such a coddled prospect ever in this franchise's history. This guy is truly this franchise's Bargnani. It took years for the Toronto fanbase to finally admit the guy was just a dumb, soft player who was terrible for the team's culture. It seems like it's still gonna take a while for this fanbase to reach that point.

[MeloRoseNoah]

Just thank God that we haven't given him a Bargnani max contract. That would be crippling to this franchise for the next decade.

It's time to give him a lot of tough love, and plan for the future without this bust if he doesn't man up and show some life.

Even if he starts posting god stats for the 2nd half of the season, I would only pick up his option and not give him a contract.

[wolffy]

Id rather start WCJ and DG than Lauri. Literally. The rebounding, shot blocking, and interior defense would all be way better. Spacing would be worse for sure but for that i sub out Dunn for Coby, Otto, or Denzel.

[SHO'NUFF]

Charmin needs to sign Lauri to a max contract.

[PaKii94]

Watch on YouTube

Sigh I wanna see this guy again

[MrSparkle]

I dunno why it's so hard for media and fans to just decide that he's a role-player and not a franchise player. Franchise players don't ever "struggle" so bad. They always find a way to contribute; maybe their shot is way off, so they show up as passers and defenders.

I'll admit I saw a high-ceiling with him, he came in with a pretty tough demeanor and smart IQ back in fall 2017. I thought it was a simple matter of the guy gaining more muscle and sliding into center minutes. But there's this fanbase that keeps claiming "he's a SF, stop playing him as a C."

The easy answer is he's not a SF; he's not fast enough to be a wing, he shoots and handles worse than every other starting wing in the NBA... and the PF position is "dead." You're either a wing with big man length (Giannis, Pascal, Dray, Davis) and center skills (blocking, rebounding, post), or you're literally a wing/SF playing "out of position" at PF (Iguodala, Tatum/Haywood, Durant, Gallinari).

If a 7ft 240 lb player with "center foot-speed" can't play center (protect rim, rebound), he's basically a 15-20 mpg specialist. I think there's a reason you're seeing his career nights against teams that have below-par big men match-ups (Hawks without Collins, or the Hornets with Zeller, rookie/debut-game PJ and an inconsistent tweener Miles, Wizards with one of the worst defenders Bertans still actually outscoring him, Mavs missing Porzingis).

Rookie Lauri hype was a combo of low expectations, ignoring that we're a bottom-2 tank team, forgiving rookie-goggles, and frankly I wasn't high on Robin Lopez, but it appears he was the exact guy to pair with Lauri for best results; he did the tough stuff (bruise inside, box out, screen), let Lauri collect the boards and switch per convenience, and RoLo could post to kick out to Lauri or space with a reliable mid-range shot.

Unless Lauri magically figures out how to rebound and defend at a high level, Forman's beloved Leslie is 100% right: he's Chicago's Bargnani. Who mind you, also lit up the scoreboard some nights in his career. He did average 21 ppg in his best season (at 25yo), with about 0.5 bpg and 6 rpg ... and the Raptors were 22-60. Sound familiar?

Sure he'd "blossom" on the Lakers as a spacer for Lebron and Davis, but they'll still yell at him for blowing defensive assignments and rebounds, and he'd be getting Kuzma bench treatment ("I play better with more minutes" - well of course, you score more, but you don't actually help win games when we need defense).

This thread should actually be closed, because it's been brutally established that Lauri on the max would be a comically bad decision. It needs to be discussed whether Lauri should get a 2y "trial" contract ala Portis/Niko/Jabari, or if he should get long-term security with a $100m/5y style contract. Bulls will be bone-heads if they stand pat and do the 5y extension. But I can see them justifying it, as Zach and he are a 1-2 punch.

[Louri]

Watch on YouTube

Sigh I wanna see this guy again

I stopped when he said best part is Lauris passing and court vision. Realgm god posters said he is bad passer so I rather believe them.

[IamSam]

At this point, I'd say Lauri would have to show me a portal to another dimension cause I don't think it will happen in this one.

[MrSparkle]

Watch on YouTube

Sigh I wanna see this guy again

I stopped when he said best part is Lauris passing and court vision. Realgm god posters said he is bad passer so I rather believe them.

His court vision is solid. And he can handle the rock for a PF. He's far from Kevin Love's passing/vision, but he has the skill-set. I don't think anybody has a problem with Lauri's perimeter skill-set for a 7-ftr.

Now this has nothing to do with me thinking that Lauri is a low-tier player, but this is where the problem is with Boylen. The Bulls are more half-court oriented, when obviously Lauri does better in a faster paced transition game. You can either make an OK player look terrible, or you can make them look very good.

His shot blocking and rebounding are horrible, and his spot-up shooting is inconsistent, which brings up the red flags. And he has no post-game at all. But there are some obvious pros to his game that have sunk away.

[Leslie Forman]

His court vision is solid. And he can handle the rock for a PF. He's far from Kevin Love's passing/vision, but he has the skill-set. I don't think anybody has a problem with Lauri's perimeter skill-set for a 7-ftr.

For a big man who can't even play center and plays absolutely no defense, his skillset is incredibly weak. That video of Lauri showing off his mad skillz was a bunch of basic stuff Doug McDermott could do. The skill level of scoring-focused 4s in this league is insanely high.

This is a league where we got power forwards doing stuff like this:

Watch on YouTube

[mtron32]

His court vision is solid. And he can handle the rock for a PF. He's far from Kevin Love's passing/vision, but he has the skill-set. I don't think anybody has a problem with Lauri's perimeter skill-set for a 7-ftr.

For a big man who can't even play center and plays absolutely no defense, his skillset is incredibly weak. That video of Lauri showing off his mad skillz was a bunch of basic stuff Doug McDermott could do. The skill level of scoring-focused 4s in this league is insanely high.

This is a league where we got power forwards doing stuff like this:

Watch on YouTube

You need to have soul to pull off work like that, Lauri has none of it. The problem is that I can see the potential but the dude apparently refuses to work on his game in the off season. He just punches his time clock and does what Coach Push Ups says

[VolumePoster]

I'm ready to move on, personally. He still may have some value around the league, but that value is going to quickly decrease. I'd see what's available.

[FriedRise]

I think he'd be a solid backup PF. We're kinda short in that position right now if Thad does get moved. Pay Lauri 8-10M per year and that position can be his for years to come. He can play 15-20 mpg, which isn't that far off from what he's playing now already. It'll probably help his fatigue issue too so maybe he can move at more than half speed.

We just need to get a starting-level PF. Let's draft another big man, or a 6'8 - 6'9 wing who can play the 3 and 4 positions (the next Siakam, Tatum, Brown, Middleton, etc.). Not all these guys were picked in the lottery, just need somebody in the FO who can actually evaluate talent.

[Mbrahv0528]

Watch on YouTube

Sigh I wanna see this guy again

I still think that Lauri getting back to, or around that level is a possibility, but not with this head coach.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[PaKii94]

Watch on YouTube

Sigh I wanna see this guy again

I still think that Lauri getting back to, or around that level is a possibility, but not with this head coach.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Yeah I think he can still get there if he's the main focus of the team. Currently he's just a cog. Even still, that lauri is still hiding in plain sight, hidden by his low af usage.

[MrSparkle]

His court vision is solid. And he can handle the rock for a PF. He's far from Kevin Love's passing/vision, but he has the skill-set. I don't think anybody has a problem with Lauri's perimeter skill-set for a 7-ftr.

For a big man who can't even play center and plays absolutely no defense, his skillset is incredibly weak. That video of Lauri showing off his mad skillz was a bunch of basic stuff Doug McDermott could do. The skill level of scoring-focused 4s in this league is insanely high.

This is a league where we got power forwards doing stuff like this:

Watch on YouTube

I don't disagree. I'm not trying to say that Lauri is a good player. Pascal is far better, and I said exactly that before the season started (much to another Bulls fan's frustration). I'm just acknowledging his strengths - would you say is passing and dribbling are "below average" for a 7ftr? think Lauri's perimeter skills (for center size) are above average, and his actual production is below what he's capable of (mainly spot-up shooting %). However his lack of "center" skills are what do him in; compared to other PFs in the league, like I said, the new standard is shooting/handling the ball as well as wings. So I'm saying, Lauri's only shot at becoming a full-time player of note, is learning to play center: rebound, defend the paint and post. If he doesn't do it, then he's a 15-20 mpg role-player. Rich man's Kornet.

I think he's got a little more happening than McDermott on the perimeter, but Doug has better post-up skills, and is actually better at boxing out and catching boards. I think overall, their pros/cons make it a fair comparison.

But Lauri does have 4-in. and 25-lb. on Doug, which means that in a 1-on-1 match-up, Lauri wins without a problem. On that note, while I don't think he'd be an all-star, a 7-ft Doug McDermott would probably be a half-productive NBA scorer. He'd have more height to work the mid-range and post. Obviously he'd still be Kornet on defense, but I think he'd atleast average ~10 rb. a game.

[Leslie Forman]

I'm just acknowledging his strengths - would you say is passing and dribbling are "below average" for a 7ftr?

Those aren't even his "strengths" though. He really only has one strength – shooting. He is only allowed to handle the ball so much here (which he still shies away from often) because this team is so talent poor.

Is he, in a vacuum, better than "below average" at ballhandling among 7 feet tall people in the league? Who knows. Most centers in this league simply don't bother trying to handle the ball in tough situations. Whenever Markkanen does it he looks absolutely awful at it. So unless Meyers Leonard or Ivica Zubac start trying to dribble in traffic I don't know what to even compare him to. Can he dribble in a straight line up the court when nobody is forcing him to move laterally? Sure. But every center in this league could do that. Some of these "highlights" of Markkanen's ballhandling are incredibly basic things that random 7 footers like Robin Lopez or Dewayne Dedmon could do if they were actually encouraged to.

As for passing? No. I've seen nothing that indicates he's any better a passer than any random 7 footer on an NBA bench. He's currently got a lower assist % and assist:TO ratio than Alex Len, for christ's sake.

So I'm saying, Lauri's only shot at becoming a full-time player of note, is learning to play center: rebound, defend the paint and post. If he doesn't do it, then he's a 15-20 mpg role-player. Rich man's Kornet.

Which is what I've been saying since he was a rookie. And he hasn't shown any of it in 3 years. Hell if anything, he's shown regression in all those things as other teams have scouted him out more.

I don't see this tiger changing his stripes any time soon.

[HomoSapien]

One troubling aspect of this season is that Lauri's FGA per 36 minutes and usage rate are both at career lows. Even more troubling is that Lauri per 36 ranks only 4th on the team in both categories, meaning he isn't being used as a primary option. To put it in perspective, Thadeus Young gets the same amount of shots as Lauri and about the same usage even though they're not equal players.

Obviously part of this is Lauri's fault. He's not aggressive enough, doesn't demand the ball, etc. But still, if Lauri's development is the key to this rebuild then our coaching staff has to make it a bigger priority to run more offense through him.

[ZOMG]

I'm just acknowledging his strengths - would you say is passing and dribbling are "below average" for a 7ftr?

Those aren't even his "strengths" though. He really only has one strength – shooting. He is only allowed to handle the ball so much here (which he still shies away from often) because this team is so talent poor.

Is he, in a vacuum, better than "below average" at ballhandling among 7 feet tall people in the league? Who knows. Most centers in this league simply don't bother trying to handle the ball in tough situations. Whenever Markkanen does it he looks absolutely awful at it. So unless Meyers Leonard or Ivica Zubac start trying to dribble in traffic I don't know what to even compare him to. Can he dribble in a straight line up the court when nobody is forcing him to move laterally? Sure. But every center in this league could do that. Some of these "highlights" of Markkanen's ballhandling are incredibly basic things that random 7 footers like Robin Lopez or Dewayne Dedmon could do if they were actually encouraged to.

As for passing? No. I've seen nothing that indicates he's any better a passer than any random 7 footer on an NBA bench. He's currently got a lower assist % and assist:TO ratio than Alex Len, for christ's sake.

So I'm saying, Lauri's only shot at becoming a full-time player of note, is learning to play center: rebound, defend the paint and post. If he doesn't do it, then he's a 15-20 mpg role-player. Rich man's Kornet.

Which is what I've been saying since he was a rookie. And he hasn't shown any of it in 3 years. Hell if anything, he's shown regression in all those things as other teams have scouted him out more.

I don't see this tiger changing his stripes any time soon.

A pass is an assist only if the other guy makes the shot. When Lauri plays with the starters and passes the ball, he obviously takes one good shooter out of the equation. Of the remaining four, two are Dunn and either Wendell or Gafford - all awful offensive players. Sato is pretty passive, much like Lauri often is.

That leaves us with Zach - who has a tendency to hold the ball or dribble in place before making a decision, often removing the assist even if he makes the shot.

To the above we can add Lauri's career low usage and the fact that he may go minutes at a time without even touching the ball, and suddenly his low assist numbers start to look a lot more understandable.

Still, anyone who's watched the games has seen Lauri driving to the hoop and shoveling the ball to the center at the dunker's spot. Unfortunately, both Gafford and Wendell have stone hands and they regularly fumble passes they receive in traffic.

It all comes down to this team playing the wrong kind of offense for the current personnel. We don't move the ball, we try to dribble it from A to B. Assists are not generated in an organic way, as a result of ball movement. That's why the numbers are so low.

[madvillian]

Trade him before he loses all value.