What does Lauri need to show for you to want to give him a MAX deal? - Merged

[TheGOATRises007]

I give up on him.

There is not a Bulls player I've ever been more wrong/disappointed in their potential.

I thought Lauri was going to be a great player.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lauri talk as max player is done. He has regressed in every area.

[Leslie Forman]

A pass is an assist only if the other guy makes the shot. When Lauri plays with the starters and passes the ball, he obviously takes one good shooter out of the equation. Of the remaining four, two are Dunn and either Wendell or Gafford - all awful offensive players. Sato is pretty passive, much like Lauri often is.

Ahhh, the ol' "it's the other guys' fault" excuse. Never heard that one with Markkanen. Nope. Never.

Real shame he can't play with a bunch of studs like Len in Atlanta. Now that's a spectacular offense.

[ZOMG]

A pass is an assist only if the other guy makes the shot. When Lauri plays with the starters and passes the ball, he obviously takes one good shooter out of the equation. Of the remaining four, two are Dunn and either Wendell or Gafford - all awful offensive players. Sato is pretty passive, much like Lauri often is.

Ahhh, the ol' "it's the other guys' fault" excuse. Never heard that one with Markkanen. Nope. Never.

Real shame he can't play with a bunch of studs like Len in Atlanta. Now that's a spectacular offense.

Just pointing out that nobody plays in a vacuum. Basketball is a team game, which is understandably a difficult concept to grasp for LaVine stans.

If we can't discuss the obvious factors limiting Lauri's assist totals, why is it OK to list similar excuses for LaVine going 11 for 28? "He has no help", "Of course he has to chuck shots", "everyone else sucks". Double standards.

Please tell me where Lauri, as a perimeter shooter whose job is to stand there and wait for the ball, should get his assists from if it's so easy to pick them up on this team.

[ZOMG]

By the way, are people intentionally ignoring the fact that he's again playing injured? It's clear as day that he's at something like 60% athletically. No burst, no lift.

I've long been saying that Lauri is only hurting himself with this "I want to play 82 games" crap. I guess his haters would be happier too if Markkanen took 10 games off to heal his ankle.

[FranchisePlayer]

By the way, are people intentionally ignoring the fact that he's again playing injured? It's clear as day that he's at something like 60% athletically. No burst, no lift.

I've long been saying that Lauri is only hurting himself with this "I want to play 82 games" crap. I guess his haters would be happier too if Markkanen took 10 games off to heal his ankle.

They most certainly are. A poster claims Markkanen to be "fine" a week after he gets 227 pounds of Smart on his ankle.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, this "I need to play all the games" nonsense has to come to a stop, too. But it's good both Lauri's haters and supporters want to see him benched for a while - it gives such a warm and cosy feeling of solidarity within the Bulls fanbase.

[rtblues]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

[coldfish]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

[ZOMG]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

And still there's probably a lot more demand for him around the league than for LaVine. Crazy, right?

[coldfish]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

And still there's probably a lot more demand for him around the league than for LaVine. Crazy, right?

I agree. Probably due to his age and contract. IMO the Bulls really should cash in now. The minute he signs that $20m or more deal he will become a negative trade value.

[ZOMG]

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

And still there's probably a lot more demand for him around the league than for LaVine. Crazy, right?

I agree. Probably due to his age and contract. IMO the Bulls really should cash in now. The minute he signs that $20m or more deal he will become a negative trade value.

Zach is just 24, and for a guy who's supposedly a borderline All Star, he's pretty cheap. Surely the experienced FO's around the league recognize value when they see it?

No, I think it's something else. I think they look at Zach and see a 3rd option or bench shooter in a superstar's body, with an ISO-centric style to match.

LaVine is in the same trap as many other similar guys over the years: not good enough to lead a team to wins, but after receiving top dog treatment for years, unable to become a sidekick.

[DorO]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

It’s sad that his stats are bad, huge regression and totally role player stats - Bulls did not come good with him. To add softness, very low bbiq, lack of athleticism and that he is slow. I predicted 4/50-65 range and he could still be overpaid in that range.

[PaKii94]

Lauri's gonna get 20 per at minimum. Whether he deserves it or not is a different discussion but someone will pay up.

Also, 20 per is no where near max deal status anymore for people hemming and hawing. Lauri's max would START at 31.25 per on the first year

[PaKii94]

oh god this is tooo cringe

Read on Twitter

[FriedRise]

oh god this is tooo cringe

Read on Twitter

This must be shot last year because there's no way he has that kind of lift.

And by the way, call Ankin Law.

[chefo]

Anybody who thinks a legit 7 footer who has long stretches of high 30s/low 40s 3-ball on big volume and who averaged 19/9 as a soph would not get 20 per is daydreaming. The way the Bulls currently use him, however, he's not worth anywhere near that to the team.

But, if I were an organization that has a firm belief in my ability to develop players (say the Raps), I'd be salivating at getting a shot at him because you can't teach height, you can't teach hand-eye coordination, and you can't teach athleticism and Lauri has all three in surplus.

I would have never guessed that the Bulls could botch his development so bad, so joke's on me. But they did. Last year, Lauri started the year as a 1a/b. He was allowed to handle the ball outside and use the P&R as a ball handler. He was allowed to push on rebounds and Fred believe it or not actually ran plays for him (off-ball screens at the 3 by Rolo) and high/mid post where he seemed to excel.

Out of the things that I listed above, the only thing he is currently getting is off-ball screens, and that was starting in December this year. From my personal observation, Lauri is near impossible to defend in two areas:

1.) When he is going downhill full steam--he does these off-speed moves where his defender just flys by. He ins't getting any of that this year--super low occurrence because he's not handling the ball at all this year, and I've watched most Bulls games.

2.) When he was at the FT elbows, where last year he was just shooting over people with a little fadeaway that seemed to go more often than not. I honestly can't remember him doing that once this year. Also, that area puts him in the triple threat position where he can drive with only a single dribble if his guy is a very long defender.

Long story short, he was handling the ball a lot last year. This year--almost the exact opposite. And he's on record twice, saying that being a stretch 4 hanging out on the outside most of the time is what the coaches want him to do.

To me, it's a waste of his talent. The Bulls don't need a player of his talent and skills for what they're currently doing--any 6'8 or 6'9 guy (say the Morris brothers) can probably be plugged in and do similarly. And I'll repeat again why--in the 'system' the Bulls have been running most of the year, there are three roles--the ball handling wing whose job is to attack and break the D, the screener that hands-off the ball and can either roll or pop (in our case it's always a roll because that's the only thing WCJ and Gafford can do) and the other 3 pour souls whose job is to space the floor (1 strong side and 2 weak side) and if the breakdown occurs and they are in a spot where the initial ball handler kicks out the ball, it's their turn to go and so on, and so on.

Zach and Coby don't pass much out of this set, and they handle the ball a lot. And Sato cannot break the D, so when he kicks it out, the next guy has a packed D in front of him--which inevitably leads to a reset and Coby or Zach giving it another try. One of the reasons Thad sucked so badly the first 35 games or so was because he was used as a spacer and because he couldn't drive from 3, he just settled for lazy semi-contested 3s all year. And furthermore, he knew that if he resets, he wasn't seeing the ball again, so he chucked 'happily' all year. And the end result was disastrous.

Anyhow, the last several games the Bulls have actually allowed Thad to play down low; I've seen Dunn actually setting down screens to get him the ball in the low post. Which means the coaching staff, 40 games in, finally realized that what they're doing with him on O is stupid beyond measure.

So that gives me hope that at some point these same brainiacs will watch some film from last year and have the epiphany that Lauri seemed really comfortable in the high post semi-turned to the basket and be like--let's run this half-a-dozen times a game, and see what happens. My guess is, Lauri's PPG go back to 19/game, no matter how much Zach and Coby chuck, and the Bulls fans turn staunchly pro Lauri again because his FG% will go up, while his TS remains respectable and we'll all jump on can Lauri be the next Dirk hype train.

[chefo]

On another note: I want to know who on the Bulls staff preps the exit interviews for the summer that handle what they want the players to work on.

Because whomever that is, I'd fire his ass yesterday.

Here's what we know--these idiots told both Lauri and WCJ to bulk up last year. WCJ so that he can guard the bigger centers, and Lauri so that he can play center.

Let's break this down by player:

1.) Coming out of college, WCJ's above-average athletic traits (at 250) were as follows: quick feet (remember how he could stay with PGs in summer league?), quick and high jump, and ability to shoot from 3. Him bulking up to near 270 have turned the first 2 traits into below average (he can't stay with anybody outside this year and he has nowhere near the verticality he did last year) with the benefit being he's a better rebounder and another negative being decreased stamina. We know Boylen told him to stop shooting as soon as he got the job. So there goes 3 out of 3 of where Carter has regressed relative to his potential. Bravo! It takes a special kind of tunnel vision to so royally screw up one of your top 3 prospects. As I've mentioned before, Dream and Admiral had playing weights in the 230s and 240s in their primes, and they were much taller than WCJ. There is no case that I can make why losing agility and quickness is justified, especially if the Bulls would be running a trapping D on the outside. None!

2.) Lauri, as of last year, had quick feet for a 7 footer (he'll never be as quick as a 6'8 guy, so we as fans should not hold him to that standard), excellent straight-line speed, bounciness, good hand-eye coordination (shooting) and a good vertical. His one and glaring big physical negative is that he is SHORT, length-wise, for a PF (Taj has a 4-inch bigger wingspan for example), let alone for a C. So, our brain-trust told him to bulk up so that he can play back-up C on D, despite length being his one GLARING physical limitation. In the meanwhile, he is not as quick, nor as explosive as his first two years (with his higher weight being one of the main reasons why, IMO) and the new O 'system', took away probably 2/3s of his sweet spots on O. Contrast that with Dirk, who had a personal trainer whose one job was to keep him lean, light and conditioned his entire career (per Cuban's own words). Yeah, let's have him bulk up, despite the odds being it won't do him any good, while taking away a couple of the things that make him special. Bravo, again!

So, there you have it--the Bulls brain trust in action. No wonder our best players regress--it appears to me that our staff is clueless as to what made them special to begin with and just follows the 'put 15 pounds of muscle in the offseason' cookie-cutter template for everybody, whether it makes sense or not.

[MeloRoseNoah]

On another note: I want to know who on the Bulls staff preps the exit interviews for the summer that handle what they want the players to work on.

Because whomever that is, I'd fire his ass yesterday.

Here's what we know--these idiots told both Lauri and WCJ to bulk up last year. WCJ so that he can guard the bigger centers, and Lauri so that he can play center.

Let's break this down by player:

1.) Coming out of college, WCJ's above-average athletic traits (at 250) were as follows: quick feet (remember how he could stay with PGs in summer league?), quick and high jump, and ability to shoot from 3. Him bulking up to near 270 have turned the first 2 traits into below average (he can't stay with anybody outside this year and he has nowhere near the verticality he did last year) with the benefit being he's a better rebounder and another negative being decreased stamina. We know Boylen told him to stop shooting as soon as he got the job. So there goes 3 out of 3 of where Carter has regressed relative to his potential. Bravo! It takes a special kind of tunnel vision to so royally screw up one of your top 3 prospects. As I've mentioned before, Dream and Admiral had playing weights in the 230s and 240s in their primes, and they were much taller than WCJ. There is no case that I can make why losing agility and quickness is justified, especially if the Bulls would be running a trapping D on the outside. None!

2.) Lauri, as of last year, had quick feet for a 7 footer (he'll never be as quick as a 6'8 guy, so we as fans should not hold him to that standard), excellent straight-line speed, bounciness, good hand-eye coordination (shooting) and a good vertical. His one and glaring big physical negative is that he is SHORT, length-wise, for a PF (Taj has a 4-inch bigger wingspan for example), let alone for a C. So, our brain-trust told him to bulk up so that he can play back-up C on D, despite length being his one GLARING physical limitation. In the meanwhile, he is not as quick, nor as explosive as his first two years (with his higher weight being one of the main reasons why, IMO) and the new O 'system', took away probably 2/3s of his sweet spots on O. Contrast that with Dirk, who had a personal trainer whose one job was to keep him lean, light and conditioned his entire career (per Cuban's own words). Yeah, let's have him bulk up, despite the odds being it won't do him any good, while taking away a couple of the things that make him special. Bravo, again!

So, there you have it--the Bulls brain trust in action. No wonder our best players regress--it appears to me that our staff is clueless as to what made them special to begin with and just follows the 'put 15 pounds of muscle in the offseason' cookie-cutter template for everybody, whether it makes sense or not.

Can’t fire the Almighty John Paxson for his sage advices.

If you listen to Bill Wellington, he recommends these same things. It’s very obvious that the whole Bulls brain trust is behind the #8 in term of the modern NBA offense.

Regardless, I want Lauri gone. He’s too soft for me. His defense is Jose Calderon bad. He is worse than Ayton and that scrub is a loser.

[DuckIII]

Maybe lock this thread up since Markkanen ain't getting a MAX deal in CHI or anywhere else.
Whatever upside may still exist, his play this year has killed any shot at a MAX deal.

I think Lauri has played himself out of a max contract. That said, some team is still going to offer him $20m+ per year just based on potential. Lauri is in that red zone right now where some of the worst contracts in the NBA are given out.

Edit add: I was just looking at his stats. Wow are they ugly. PER below 15. Negative rpm. Negative net rating. Its not pretty.

And still there's probably a lot more demand for him around the league than for LaVine. Crazy, right?

If that’s true, and it might be, the Bulls need to trade him for long term assets before this trade deadline.

[chefo]

On another note: I want to know who on the Bulls staff preps the exit interviews for the summer that handle what they want the players to work on.

Because whomever that is, I'd fire his ass yesterday.

Here's what we know--these idiots told both Lauri and WCJ to bulk up last year. WCJ so that he can guard the bigger centers, and Lauri so that he can play center.

Let's break this down by player:

1.) Coming out of college, WCJ's above-average athletic traits (at 250) were as follows: quick feet (remember how he could stay with PGs in summer league?), quick and high jump, and ability to shoot from 3. Him bulking up to near 270 have turned the first 2 traits into below average (he can't stay with anybody outside this year and he has nowhere near the verticality he did last year) with the benefit being he's a better rebounder and another negative being decreased stamina. We know Boylen told him to stop shooting as soon as he got the job. So there goes 3 out of 3 of where Carter has regressed relative to his potential. Bravo! It takes a special kind of tunnel vision to so royally screw up one of your top 3 prospects. As I've mentioned before, Dream and Admiral had playing weights in the 230s and 240s in their primes, and they were much taller than WCJ. There is no case that I can make why losing agility and quickness is justified, especially if the Bulls would be running a trapping D on the outside. None!

2.) Lauri, as of last year, had quick feet for a 7 footer (he'll never be as quick as a 6'8 guy, so we as fans should not hold him to that standard), excellent straight-line speed, bounciness, good hand-eye coordination (shooting) and a good vertical. His one and glaring big physical negative is that he is SHORT, length-wise, for a PF (Taj has a 4-inch bigger wingspan for example), let alone for a C. So, our brain-trust told him to bulk up so that he can play back-up C on D, despite length being his one GLARING physical limitation. In the meanwhile, he is not as quick, nor as explosive as his first two years (with his higher weight being one of the main reasons why, IMO) and the new O 'system', took away probably 2/3s of his sweet spots on O. Contrast that with Dirk, who had a personal trainer whose one job was to keep him lean, light and conditioned his entire career (per Cuban's own words). Yeah, let's have him bulk up, despite the odds being it won't do him any good, while taking away a couple of the things that make him special. Bravo, again!

So, there you have it--the Bulls brain trust in action. No wonder our best players regress--it appears to me that our staff is clueless as to what made them special to begin with and just follows the 'put 15 pounds of muscle in the offseason' cookie-cutter template for everybody, whether it makes sense or not.

Can’t fire the Almighty John Paxson for his sage advices.

If you listen to Bill Wellington, he recommends these same things. It’s very obvious that the whole Bulls brain trust is behind the #8 in term of the modern NBA offense.

Regardless, I want Lauri gone. He’s too soft for me. His defense is Jose Calderon bad. He is worse than Ayton and that scrub is a loser.

I mean, yeah, it should be obvious to anybody with a working unit between the ears. You should figure out what areas any player has above-average (vs. peers) potential in, and work tirelessly to see if you can develop these areas into an elite trait and then design a system that emphasizes that.

For example, I don't mind a system that makes WCJ rotate a lot on D--kid's pretty smart and was good at it as a rook. For him to do that, he needs to be quick and nimble. He doesn't need to be Oak-sized, or Kendrick Perkins-sized. See at what weight you maximize his quickness, stamina and agility and make sure that he stays there. I can tell you it's not 270. I honestly thought he'd be one of the nimblest C in the league when I first watched him play. I mean, if the Dubs could make it with Green as their D anchor, WCJ is plenty big, if he gets quicker and leaner. But he's not. He's plodding out there this year because he's too heavy.

I would also totally make Lauri my clear #2, and run a ton more stuff for him in places where the D has to react, if he has it going. You can guard him with a 6'7 or even a 6'5 if he's camped at the weakside 3 by design and not suffer any negative consequences, which is what teams are doing, BTW. You can't guard him with that kind of player at the FT elbows or it's a clean FT jumper for him every time down the court. I don't care analytics says it's a bad shot. It's a bad shot if he's guarded by Giannis, Isaac or Simmons. It's a great shot if he has a SG-sized player on him.

Then, the D has to adjust and react because you'll abuse them otherwise. But, alas, 3s, FTs and layups all day, even though we have 2 non-shooters on the floor at all times, and another reluctant shooter in Sato.

Yep, genius basketball minds on that staff.