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Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more

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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#21 » by transplant » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Initially, I wrote off all the Arcidiacano love to Chicago fans' often irrational attraction to "hustle guys." I still feel this way about the Harrison love. However, the more I see of Arcidiacano, the more I'm convincing myself that he's genuinely pretty good at basketball. Clearly, White has a higher ceiling, but if something bad happens to Satoransky and the Bulls need to win a game, Arcidiacano, rather than White or Dunn, is the guy I'd go to.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#22 » by RedBulls23 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Proven_Winner wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:I think Arci will play plenty. Imo, the Sato, Arci and Coby will all get mintues in the backcourt (with Sato and Arci getting bulk of their mintues at PG).

As for Dunn, I think he might become useful as a backup wing behind Otto considering how weak our depth is there.


I don’t know with Dunn he feels like a liability out on offense. Shaq arguably could replace him and do better. He’s more of a tough defender and he at least knows how to cut and has a tighter handle. I think it’s bad enough we’re forcing Val to play SF but Dunn I feel doesn’t give enough to justify him playing SF and arguably SG behind Otto and Zach.

Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#23 » by sco » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:10 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:I think Arci will play plenty. Imo, the Sato, Arci and Coby will all get mintues in the backcourt (with Sato and Arci getting bulk of their mintues at PG).

As for Dunn, I think he might become useful as a backup wing behind Otto considering how weak our depth is there.


I don’t know with Dunn he feels like a liability out on offense. Shaq arguably could replace him and do better. He’s more of a tough defender and he at least knows how to cut and has a tighter handle. I think it’s bad enough we’re forcing Val to play SF but Dunn I feel doesn’t give enough to justify him playing SF and arguably SG behind Otto and Zach.

Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.

The problem with Dunn at SF is that he is just gonna play (his brand of ball dominant) PG while guarding the opposing SF. Say what you want about Shaq, but he's not ball dominant, and while he can't shoot, it's ok if he's your 5th option offensively. A line-up of Arci, Coby, Shaq, Thad, Luke is probably fine - where subbing Dunn for Shaq, probably isn't. I'd prefer Hutch, if he ever gets healthy.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#24 » by RedBulls23 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:20 pm

sco wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
I don’t know with Dunn he feels like a liability out on offense. Shaq arguably could replace him and do better. He’s more of a tough defender and he at least knows how to cut and has a tighter handle. I think it’s bad enough we’re forcing Val to play SF but Dunn I feel doesn’t give enough to justify him playing SF and arguably SG behind Otto and Zach.

Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.

The problem with Dunn at SF is that he is just gonna play (his brand of ball dominant) PG while guarding the opposing SF. Say what you want about Shaq, but he's not ball dominant, and while he can't shoot, it's ok if he's your 5th option offensively. A line-up of Arci, Coby, Shaq, Thad, Luke is probably fine - where subbing Dunn for Shaq, probably isn't. I'd prefer Hutch, if he ever gets healthy.

Well yeah, Dunn will have to change his mindset. That goes without saying.

We would all prefer Hutch to be the wing behind Otto, but that's the problem, he's a big question mark. In an ideal world, Hutch stays healthy and takes over behind Otto and we're good to go, but that's why we are having a conversation about the depth at the wing because everyone on the roster that can play behind Otto is completely unreliable right now. So Boylen might have to experiment.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#25 » by sco » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:28 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
sco wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.

The problem with Dunn at SF is that he is just gonna play (his brand of ball dominant) PG while guarding the opposing SF. Say what you want about Shaq, but he's not ball dominant, and while he can't shoot, it's ok if he's your 5th option offensively. A line-up of Arci, Coby, Shaq, Thad, Luke is probably fine - where subbing Dunn for Shaq, probably isn't. I'd prefer Hutch, if he ever gets healthy.

Well yeah, Dunn will have to change his mindset. That goes without saying.

We would all prefer Hutch to be the wing behind Otto, but that's the problem, he's a big question mark. In an ideal world, Hutch stays healthy and takes over behind Otto and we're good to go, but that's why we are having a conversation about the depth at the wing because everyone on the roster that can play behind Otto is completely unreliable right now. So Boylen might have to experiment.


I think Thad a SF and Luke at PF is a better option than Dunn too.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#26 » by CoreyVillains » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:30 pm

sco wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:
sco wrote:Can anybody make a real argument that he isn't the 2nd best PG on the team?

He is a 25 year-old crafty veteran. There are some guys in the NBA who weren't high picks, who aren't huge athletic freaks, but you look back after they've been in the league 10 years and say, "darn, why didn't we just play this guy more?". Arci is one of those guys. If we want to win, Arci needs to be our back-up PG. He can ball handle, pass, not turn the ball over, shoot 3's, shot in the paint, defend. IMO, he keeps getting better, and is now better than vintage Kirk.


I like Arch a lot and support him having a role on this team, but we really can’t get carried away. I mean better than vintage Kirk? I know the world we live is very much what have you done for me lately, but Kirk was a very good point guard in the league and was a legit great defender. If Archi could give us what vintage Kirk did, he shouldn’t be the backup, he should be the starter.

IMO, Kirk wasn't a great PG during his time with the Bulls. He was a great defender, who developed into a decent 3pt shooter, he was good at not turning the ball over, but he would dribble the air out of the ball and hand it off to a guy away from the hoop who didn't have an open shot - so there's some context for my statement.



He wasn’t a great PG, which is why I said he was very good. Kirk at his peak was indeed very good. He wasn’t Steve Nash, ready to systematically break a defense down by himself, but he could run the team’s offense and not make too many mistakes. Sometimes he would over dribble, but that’s better than throwing an errant pass. The point remains that Arch is not yet approaching Kirk’s level, which was absolutely a quality starting PG in the NBA. If Arch plays too big a role for us this year, it isn’t a positive sign.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#27 » by sco » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:36 pm

CoreyVillains wrote:
sco wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:
I like Arch a lot and support him having a role on this team, but we really can’t get carried away. I mean better than vintage Kirk? I know the world we live is very much what have you done for me lately, but Kirk was a very good point guard in the league and was a legit great defender. If Archi could give us what vintage Kirk did, he shouldn’t be the backup, he should be the starter.

IMO, Kirk wasn't a great PG during his time with the Bulls. He was a great defender, who developed into a decent 3pt shooter, he was good at not turning the ball over, but he would dribble the air out of the ball and hand it off to a guy away from the hoop who didn't have an open shot - so there's some context for my statement.



He wasn’t a great PG, which is why I said he was very good. Kirk at his peak was indeed very good. He wasn’t Steve Nash, ready to systematically break a defense down by himself, but he could run the team’s offense and not make too many mistakes. Sometimes he would over dribble, but that’s better than throwing an errant pass. The point remains that Arch is not yet approaching Kirk’s level, which was absolutely a quality starting PG in the NBA. If Arch plays too big a role for us this year, it isn’t a positive sign.

I can see where you might think that, but I gotta disagree. I see Arci doing things that Kirk didn't/couldn't, and I think he's better.

And let me be clear, I'm saying all of this in the context of that Arci's level is a "good back-up".
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#28 » by LateNight » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:12 pm

donaldtrump_00 wrote:Wait... Coby white seems to have a knack for scoring and getting open with his quickness. Hes better then i thought hed be on offense. Hes clearly our spark plug or microwave scorer. Just needs to get teammates involved more. Archie is getting good. I think he'll get his chance. And sato is decent to. Im still not high on him like others in here. Hes still a 2nd string pg. I still would start dunn. He has the most experience with zach and lauri. He doesnt get in the way and we need defense more then 3pt shooting in the starting 5.

The nobody has the heart to say it but kris dunn is still the best overall pg we have. Yall judging him off his flaws. He good at assists. And can score if necessary. I like his ability to play the passing lanes and pick pocket guards. But once coby is ready hes going to be a big piece.

But on arcie. Hes not going to ever be a starter. All this praise is off a preseason game where nobody is engaged on defense. He can shoot and drive but like last season he does it for 2 games and not seen again for months. Hes hurting his owm value. Like ppl say dunn had his chance, well hes had his to last season in absence of dunn. He struggled alot. Dont act like hes some great hidden secret. Hes a known comodity to. He needs to do his thing more than once or twice then going back to mediocre
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#29 » by Proven_Winner » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:23 pm

sco wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
I don’t know with Dunn he feels like a liability out on offense. Shaq arguably could replace him and do better. He’s more of a tough defender and he at least knows how to cut and has a tighter handle. I think it’s bad enough we’re forcing Val to play SF but Dunn I feel doesn’t give enough to justify him playing SF and arguably SG behind Otto and Zach.

Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.

The problem with Dunn at SF is that he is just gonna play (his brand of ball dominant) PG while guarding the opposing SF. Say what you want about Shaq, but he's not ball dominant, and while he can't shoot, it's ok if he's your 5th option offensively. A line-up of Arci, Coby, Shaq, Thad, Luke is probably fine - where subbing Dunn for Shaq, probably isn't. I'd prefer Hutch, if he ever gets healthy.


This is why I have Shaq ahead of him. Dude knows his role and plays the hell out of it. I feel Shaq is the better defender he actually gets into his guys jersey 24/7. Dunn has the better tools but Shaq is just more consistent with what he will give you.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#30 » by Proven_Winner » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:35 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
Proven_Winner wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:I think Arci will play plenty. Imo, the Sato, Arci and Coby will all get mintues in the backcourt (with Sato and Arci getting bulk of their mintues at PG).

As for Dunn, I think he might become useful as a backup wing behind Otto considering how weak our depth is there.


I don’t know with Dunn he feels like a liability out on offense. Shaq arguably could replace him and do better. He’s more of a tough defender and he at least knows how to cut and has a tighter handle. I think it’s bad enough we’re forcing Val to play SF but Dunn I feel doesn’t give enough to justify him playing SF and arguably SG behind Otto and Zach.

Dunn has the length to defend SF in stretches. That's my point. Just for depth. Val is a reason why that depth is an issue.

Dunn isn't good offensively, but Shaq is worse. There's a reason Shaq can't stick to a roster and keeps getting cut.

As an example of their offensive issues:

Kris Dunn's ORPM is -1.40

Shaq Harrison's ORPM is -2.58

I don't see Dunn as a long term fit at PG, even as a backup, but he's still a better player than Shaq. He's also better than Val, until proven otherwise.


That’s the problem though are we judging Dunn off what we’re seeing or these “tools” we say he has? Match them up I think neither Dunn or Shaq is locking down a SF all game but at least with Shaq you can expect his guy to have to make quick decisions because he’ll be in his jersey and he’ll put a lot of pressure on guys. Dunn has a lot of good spurts on defense but I feel his consistency is up and down on that end because there’s times he does effortlessly get torched by guys who his “tools” are supposed to help him with.

Let’s ignore the numbers and take into account what we’ve seen Shaq knows his role he’ll cut when needed and won’t hestate from 3 if he’s open. Dunn on the other hand is definitely better one on one but the problem is that doesn’t matter since he sucks at actually finishing but yet is taking up a lot of time with him even handling the ball.

Also I agree Shaq is bad but again he knows his role and that’s also why he does get jobs for teams even though he can’t stick anywhere. Thing is that doesn’t speak well for Dunn considering he isn’t much of a better offensive player and is still living because he was a lottery pick so technically he hasn’t been thrown out and have to look for a job like Shaq. And considering we can barely get a deal for him it doesn’t look good for him unless he can impress heavily this season.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#31 » by Finfro » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:38 pm

donaldtrump_00 wrote:Wait... Coby white seems to have a knack for scoring and getting open with his quickness. Hes better then i thought hed be on offense. Hes clearly our spark plug or microwave scorer. Just needs to get teammates involved more. Archie is getting good. I think he'll get his chance. And sato is decent to. Im still not high on him like others in here. Hes still a 2nd string pg. I still would start dunn. He has the most experience with zach and lauri. He doesnt get in the way and we need defense more then 3pt shooting in the starting 5.

The nobody has the heart to say it but kris dunn is still the best overall pg we have. Yall judging him off his flaws. He good at assists. And can score if necessary. I like his ability to play the passing lanes and pick pocket guards. But once coby is ready hes going to be a big piece.

But on arcie. Hes not going to ever be a starter. All this praise is off a preseason game where nobody is engaged on defense. He can shoot and drive but like last season he does it for 2 games and not seen again for months. Hes hurting his owm value. Like ppl say dunn had his chance, well hes had his to last season in absence of dunn. He struggled alot. Dont act like hes some great hidden secret. Hes a known comodity to. He needs to do his thing more than once or twice then going back to mediocre

We have been watching a different Bulls last season. Arci did not struggle but played to his strengths meaning that he was an enabler for his team mates. If I don't remember completely wrong, I think the statistics show that both Lauri and LaVine were way more effective when Arci was on court than when he wasn't. Arci had very few TO's. I don't recall any long stretches where Arci would not have been seen.

I agree with many that Sato and Arci should be holding the starter and backup PG spots and let White try different positions. Unfortunately Dunn no longer has a role in this team. That's a shame. Dunn was a fun player to root for especially with his story but it just didn't pan out for him. Time to move on.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#32 » by FriedRise » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:44 pm

As for his playing time, I don’t think we need to worry about Arch not getting any on this team. If anything, I’d guess Boylen is probably the reason why he was brought back at all (along with Shaq).

There is probably a good chance these two are already ahead in the depth chart than Kris Dunn (again, they wouldn’t have brought both of them back otherwise), but just like Felicio getting minutes in these preseason games, we give Dunn playing time because we don’t wanna overload the regular rotation guys or because of injuries.

In an ideal world, Dunn wasn’t on the team come Training Camp and we have a legit backup wing or a future pick coming our way, but we can’t have everything.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#33 » by coldfish » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:39 pm

As a side note, Coby is big. I suspect that based on the roster, he is going to get a fair percentage of his minutes at the 2 backing up Lavine. Possibly next to Arci, who is seemingly a good fit for that role.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#34 » by Dez » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:10 am

gardenofsound wrote:Guards - Lavine 32, Satoransky 24, White 24, Arcidiacono 8, Dunn 8
Forwards - OPJ 32, Markkanen 26, Hutchison 20, Valentine 16, Satoransky 4
Centers - Carter 30, Markkanen 6, Kornet 8, Gafford 6

Total minutes breakdown:
Lavine - 32
Markkanen - 32
Porter Jr - 32
Carter Jr - 30
Satoransky - 28
White - 24
Hutchison - 20
Valentine - 16
Kornet - 8
Arcidiacono - 8
Dunn - 8
Gafford - 4

I think this is going to be a pretty important year for WCJ. With Kornet and Gafford behind him on the depth chart, they're both young guys trying to prove they're worthy at this level. If they show out and Carter doesn't show a marked improvement from last year, he could start to lose playing time.


Don't think Thad Young will be too happy with that minutes distribution.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#35 » by gardenofsound » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:46 am

Dez wrote:
gardenofsound wrote:Guards - Lavine 32, Satoransky 24, White 24, Arcidiacono 8, Dunn 8
Forwards - OPJ 32, Markkanen 26, Hutchison 20, Valentine 16, Satoransky 4
Centers - Carter 30, Markkanen 6, Kornet 8, Gafford 6

Total minutes breakdown:
Lavine - 32
Markkanen - 32
Porter Jr - 32
Carter Jr - 30
Satoransky - 28
White - 24
Hutchison - 20
Valentine - 16
Kornet - 8
Arcidiacono - 8
Dunn - 8
Gafford - 4

I think this is going to be a pretty important year for WCJ. With Kornet and Gafford behind him on the depth chart, they're both young guys trying to prove they're worthy at this level. If they show out and Carter doesn't show a marked improvement from last year, he could start to lose playing time.


Don't think Thad Young will be too happy with that minutes distribution.


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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#36 » by 2018C3 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:36 am

I just looked at the team stats last year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2019.html

"Off Rtg: 104.8 (29th of 30) Def Rtg: 113.2 (25th of 30) ", Wow, this is terrible, and worse than I thought!

There is lots of work needed on both sides of the ball.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#37 » by nomorezorro » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:54 am

i kind of thought the arch signing might be kind of silly - that we were buying "high" on a marginal nba player, that we shouldn't discount how bad he looked in his rookie season (and how bad he shot the ball). but as long as he's a reliable 3pt shooter, i'm starting to buy the notion he's a legitimately OK rotation player. he just looks leaps and bounds more comfortable on the court than he did when he first signed here, and he's become a legit "doesn't make the wrong play" player.

still probably a pretty modest ceiling there, but i would probably agree he's the second best pg on the roster right now
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#38 » by GrowingHorns » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 am

Agreed.

Arci-Coby must be the main back-court off the bench. Dunn can get minutes too, but he has to stop being so god awful inconsistent - being good at one thing and awful in another inside the same game, and it happens almost every time, if he is successful in something.
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#39 » by dice » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:30 am

MrSparkle wrote:Arci is a good 3rd stringer. If he were to increase his volume of 3Ps and still make around 38% he’d be a legit top-50 PG, but until then... he’s a stop-gap. High IQ and runs an offense well but not physically gifted enough to be more than a net neutral.

steve nash was not physically gifted

arci is a better version of john paxson, who we remember fondly as a player because of who he played with and some opportunistic clutch shots
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Re: Ryan Arcidiacono: The guy we'll kick ourselves for later not playing him more 

Post#40 » by SHO'NUFF » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:08 pm

2018C3 wrote:I just looked at the team stats last year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2019.html

"Off Rtg: 104.8 (29th of 30) Def Rtg: 113.2 (25th of 30) ", Wow, this is terrible, and worse than I thought!

There is lots of work needed on both sides of the ball.



It’s a different team than last year.
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