Bulls @ Raptors: Preseason Game #4

[Red Larrivee]

Call this a premature hot take or whatever, but it's been years since we drafted him and Lauri still doesn't look like a # 1 option. He's too meek, unassertive and the way he gets his points is too limited.

On the other hand, Zach LaVine looks like he can roll out of bed and drop 30 on any given day.

Markkanen should not be expected to be a legitimate primary option after two years in the league. We really have to let big men develop. His current trajectory isn't taking a nosedive.

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What about his skillset makes you think he's ultimately capable of being a #1 option though? I'm asking you to extrapolate

ball handling and ISO skills are below par and he doesn't have that alpha mentality that demands the ball.

I'm not saying he will become a #1; I'm saying that expecting him to be after two seasons isn't realistic.

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[NWIBullsFan]

30.9 minutes per game
1.4 turnovers per game

That's for Lauri's first 2 seasons, after only one year of college. He won't be 23 until the end of May.

I really, really, really, really need to get a new TV, so I can see the games these people are watching.

[FriedRise]

Hey, did you guys enjoy watching Cameron Payne play again? Because I didn't.

We're so sorry.

[RememberLu]

Markkanen should not be expected to be a legitimate primary option after two years in the league. We really have to let big men develop. His current trajectory isn't taking a nosedive.

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What about his skillset makes you think he's ultimately capable of being a #1 option though? I'm asking you to extrapolate

ball handling and ISO skills are below par and he doesn't have that alpha mentality that demands the ball.

I'm not saying he will become a #1; I'm saying that expecting him to be after two seasons isn't realistic.

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Sometimes you can see the potential in a player's skillset, that's all I'm saying. Regardless of whether they've been in the league 1 year or two years or 0 years.

It sounds like you also don't see #1 option in Lauri's skillset, barring some miraculous Jimmy Butler-like blossoming

[wonderboy2]

Yea this is very odd. He played very well against Toronto. If he had played normal minutes he would’ve scored around 22-26 points and 13-16 rebounds. Very good numbers.

It's the optics. Lauri might produce nice numbers, but when he gives away the ball by dribbling it off his own chin or something (I'm not even joking very much), it just looks bad and people lose trust in him.

I literally can't watch his half court ballhandling, it's that bad. It's like he's trying to dribble blind. Nobody can convince me that he did anything to fix it in the offseason.

Yeah. To me he looks like a great #2 or #3 option. But #1? I just don't see the skillset there for that.

But it might not matter because we have LaVine right now and he looks like a bona fide #1

Who the **** cares if he’s a number 1 option he doesn’t need to be. And I guarantee you the bulls don’t loose trust in Markannan just because he mishandled his dribble a few times while being bumped it happens. Lavine mishandled his dribble twice last game leading to 2 turnovers going out of bounds. For a 7’1 guy his handle is very good. He’s not ever going to be a kevin Durrant type of ball handler. But Durrant is only 6’10. Markannan put the ball down agressively in the half court a few times and got fouled. He also had a nice move where he created seperation to get a nice pull up jumper from midrange which he missed. But his handle is not bad at all for a 7’1 guy. But bulls don’t need Markannan to be the number 1 scoring option with Lavine and Porter being a good offensive player. There’s not many guys that are legit number 1 scoring options anyway in this league.

[JimmyJammer]

Call this a premature hot take or whatever, but it's been years since we drafted him and Lauri still doesn't look like a # 1 option. He's too meek, unassertive and the way he gets his points is too limited.

On the other hand, Zach LaVine looks like he can roll out of bed and drop 30 on any given day.

It could be a case of me being realistic but I never thought of Lauri as a #1 option, especially on a contending team. Those of you who were anointed him as the next Dirk will have to answer for this. He is a very good shooter with an ability to rebound and to put the ball on the floor. He has some good athleticism and height to go with those skills, but I have never seen the "it" factor in him.

When it comes to the dynamics between him and Lavine, I see it just like the one Kobe had with Pau Gasol. Zach is approaching that Kobe level where he is unstoppable and can do anything on the floor whenever he wants to and Lauri is that complementary guy. I see nothing wrong with it. Expecting a number one option out of a 7th pick of the draft is very often not ideal and realistic.

[RememberLu]

Call this a premature hot take or whatever, but it's been years since we drafted him and Lauri still doesn't look like a # 1 option. He's too meek, unassertive and the way he gets his points is too limited.

On the other hand, Zach LaVine looks like he can roll out of bed and drop 30 on any given day.

It could be a case of me being realistic but I never thought of Lauri as a #1 option, especially on a contending team. Those of you who were anointed him as the next Dirk will have to answer for this. He is a very good shooter with an ability to rebound and to put the ball on the floor. He has some good athleticism and height to go with those skills, but I have never seen the "it" factor in him.

When it comes to the dynamics between him and Lavine, I see it just like the one Kobe had with Pau Gasol. Zach is approaching that Kobe level where he is unstoppable and can do anything on the floor whenever he wants to and Lauri is that complementary guy. I see nothing wrong with it. Expecting a number one option out of a 7th pick of the draft is very often not ideal and realistic.

Yeah I'm fine with him not being a #1, as long as the Bulls have another player capable of being that #1, which it looks like we do.

I just want some recognition of the fact that Lauri is not a #1 option and his skill set likely prohibits him from ever being that. I still think he'll be a very good and productive player.

[ZOMG]

30.9 minutes per game
1.4 turnovers per game

That's for Lauri's first 2 seasons, after only one year of college. He won't be 23 until the end of May.

I really, really, really, really need to get a new TV, so I can see the games these people are watching.

I know what you mean, but Lauri's low turnover rate has always been largely a product of his conservative playing style. He doesn't take many risks, sometimes even to his detriment.

[PaKii94]

So Lauri is averaging 22/12 per 36 in the preseason, and the lead topic is how the preseason games are showing that he is an underachiever?

Hmmm.

Yea this is very odd. He played very well against Toronto. If he had played normal minutes he would’ve scored around 22-26 points and 13-16 rebounds. Very good numbers.

It's the optics. Lauri might produce nice numbers, but when he gives away the ball by dribbling it off his own chin or something (I'm not even joking very much), it just looks bad and people lose trust in him.

I literally can't watch his half court ballhandling, it's that bad. It's like he's trying to dribble blind. Nobody can convince me that he did anything to fix it in the offseason.

That's where the potential lies though. Lauri is stumbling/sleepwalking into 22/12/4 p36. If he gets a few more shots in rhythm and starts hitting them (instead of those tough iso fadeaways) he will be at like 26/12/4 on ~60%TS. In the expectations for Year 3 thread I made on Lauri, quite a few posters said I was setting expectations too high for him, and yet we have people clamoring for those type of numbers.

I mean this game against Toronto he was at 24.5p/22r/1.6a on 59%TS. and it was still a relatively disappointing performance.

However I do get where you're coming from. I agree his scoring doesn't seem to have taken a step forward. Lauri is currently hitting my pessimistic outlook but it is still just the preseason....

Pessimistic – 20p/10r/1.5a on 47/38, 57 TS%

This is if Lauri doesn’t improve and slightly regresses from the “healthy” stats. If he was consistently at this level we would still have a solid player but I think I would be disappointed since this would bring him further from a cornerstone trajectory. Usually third year players take a leap. If Lauri goes back something has gone wrong.

[wonderboy2]

Call this a premature hot take or whatever, but it's been years since we drafted him and Lauri still doesn't look like a # 1 option. He's too meek, unassertive and the way he gets his points is too limited.

On the other hand, Zach LaVine looks like he can roll out of bed and drop 30 on any given day.

It could be a case of me being realistic but I never thought of Lauri as a #1 option, especially on a contending team. Those of you who were anointed him as the next Dirk will have to answer for this. He is a very good shooter with an ability to rebound and to put the ball on the floor. He has some good athleticism and height to go with those skills, but I have never seen the "it" factor in him.

When it comes to the dynamics between him and Lavine, I see it just like the one Kobe had with Pau Gasol. Zach is approaching that Kobe level where he is unstoppable and can do anything on the floor whenever he wants to and Lauri is that complementary guy. I see nothing wrong with it. Expecting a number one option out of a 7th pick of the draft is very often not ideal and realistic.

Agree 100 percent never thought Lauri would be a number 1 option but why can’t he be a good Robin to Zach Lavines Batman. Some nights Markananan will have his nights when he’s the man that what good number 2 option do. It’s no thing wrong with that.

[wonderboy2]

Yea this is very odd. He played very well against Toronto. If he had played normal minutes he would’ve scored around 22-26 points and 13-16 rebounds. Very good numbers.

It's the optics. Lauri might produce nice numbers, but when he gives away the ball by dribbling it off his own chin or something (I'm not even joking very much), it just looks bad and people lose trust in him.

I literally can't watch his half court ballhandling, it's that bad. It's like he's trying to dribble blind. Nobody can convince me that he did anything to fix it in the offseason.

That's where the potential lies though. Lauri is stumbling/sleepwalking into 22/12/4 p36. If he gets a few more shots in rhythm and starts hitting them (instead of those tough iso fadeaways) he will be at like 26/12/4 on ~60%TS. In the expectations for Year 3 thread I made on Lauri, quite a few posters said I was setting expectations too high for him, and yet we have people clamoring for those type of numbers.

I mean this game against Toronto he was at 24.5p/22r/1.6a on 59%TS. and it was still a relatively disappointing performance.

However I do get where you're coming from. I agree his scoring doesn't seem to have taken a step forward. Lauri is currently hitting my pessimistic outlook but it is still just the preseason....

Pessimistic – 20p/10r/1.5a on 47/38, 57 TS%

This is if Lauri doesn’t improve and slightly regresses from the “healthy” stats. If he was consistently at this level we would still have a solid player but I think I would be disappointed since this would bring him further from a cornerstone trajectory. Usually third year players take a leap. If Lauri goes back something has gone wrong.

I agree but I would be happy if Luari produced 20&10 on a winning bulls team.

[PaKii94]

It's the optics. Lauri might produce nice numbers, but when he gives away the ball by dribbling it off his own chin or something (I'm not even joking very much), it just looks bad and people lose trust in him.

I literally can't watch his half court ballhandling, it's that bad. It's like he's trying to dribble blind. Nobody can convince me that he did anything to fix it in the offseason.

That's where the potential lies though. Lauri is stumbling/sleepwalking into 22/12/4 p36. If he gets a few more shots in rhythm and starts hitting them (instead of those tough iso fadeaways) he will be at like 26/12/4 on ~60%TS. In the expectations for Year 3 thread I made on Lauri, quite a few posters said I was setting expectations too high for him, and yet we have people clamoring for those type of numbers.

I mean this game against Toronto he was at 24.5p/22r/1.6a on 59%TS. and it was still a relatively disappointing performance.

However I do get where you're coming from. I agree his scoring doesn't seem to have taken a step forward. Lauri is currently hitting my pessimistic outlook but it is still just the preseason....

Pessimistic – 20p/10r/1.5a on 47/38, 57 TS%

This is if Lauri doesn’t improve and slightly regresses from the “healthy” stats. If he was consistently at this level we would still have a solid player but I think I would be disappointed since this would bring him further from a cornerstone trajectory. Usually third year players take a leap. If Lauri goes back something has gone wrong.

I agree but I would be happy if Luari produced 20&10 on a winning bulls team.

I would be disappointed on the individual level but if the Bulls are winning and Lauri is sacrificing his shots for the team, I could be satisfied with that. Currently that's been the case for these past two games. Bulls have been up by a good amount most of the minutes Lauri is on the floor. I want to see his demeanor and drive when the score is close in a game that counts or when they are behind. What does he do then? I have a feeling he will step up. That's when people will see the "#1 option" potential & "it factor".


We saw glimpses of it in February last year when the Bulls were trying to win and they were using a similar system. I think we will see it in the regular season when again the games matter.

[Red Larrivee]

What about his skillset makes you think he's ultimately capable of being a #1 option though? I'm asking you to extrapolate

ball handling and ISO skills are below par and he doesn't have that alpha mentality that demands the ball.

I'm not saying he will become a #1; I'm saying that expecting him to be after two seasons isn't realistic.

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Sometimes you can see the potential in a player's skillset, that's all I'm saying. Regardless of whether they've been in the league 1 year or two years or 0 years.

It sounds like you also don't see #1 option in Lauri's skillset, barring some miraculous Jimmy Butler-like blossoming

I have no idea. There are only a handful of players in this league that are legitimate #1 options. So, if he becomes that he'll be in elite company.

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[Ben Wilson25]

What does that have to do with the fact that Kornet can shoot and WCJ can't? Or the fact that Kornet (7'1'') is in shape and Carter (6'9'') looks like the world's biggest meatball?

Come on now.

I'd also be willing to hear what Carter has EVER done to deserve an automatic starting spot on an NBA team that's aiming for the playoffs? He certainly showed precious little last year. Promising, yeah. Productive, not.

Well first off get your facts right Carter is a legit 6’10 he’s never been listed at 6’9. Carter when healthy is so much better defensively than Kornet. Carter last year proved that he was the bulls best defender. Carter is very important to play with the starters because he helps Sato, Lauri, Lavine defensively. That being said Kornet should get time with that starting unit during stretches of the game because offensively it a thing of beauty when he’s on the court with them.

If Carter's a legit 6'10'', I'm 7'7''. When he's standing side by side with Lauri, he clearly shorter. Could be by as much as 2 inches, and Markkanen IS a legit 7 footer.

And 2 inches shorter than a 7 footer is...drumroll....6’10”!

We don’t have to guess. He was measured at the combine. 6’8.75” barefoot and 6’10” in shoes. If you want to argue whether that’s actually 6’10”, have at it. He also measured in with a 9’1” standing reach.

[chefo]

Man, this board can be a tough crowd.

For a second game, the Bulls starters and main bench guys curb-stomped whomever they were playing against. I don't care if you're playing the worst bunch of scrubs in the league--they were up 25 pts by the mid 3rd again. The previous game they beat up a pretty decent NO team.

And this game, they did it, with WCJ trying on a Shrek (Felicio) impersonation.

Not being critical--kid has not played ball in almost a year. Just like Rolo last year, a big may take a good 2-3 months before he becomes a net positive on the floor in these circumstances.

But come on, at this point, that's just looking for things to be unhappy about.

Our main rotation guys are looking like a top 5 Eastern team currently. Not just borderline playoff--they are looking straight up good. I think people have quickly forgotten how trashy we looked over the last couple of years in pre-season. And I mean, we'll be competing for most ping-pong balls kind-of trashy. This team is miles ahead of where they were last year.

If it doesn't translate to the regular season, we'll talk then. But based on what we've seen so far, I am more optimistic than 3 weeks ago for sure.

I mean, are Lauri and White really the players to be worried about?

Coby is averaging 17pts in 25 min/game as a 19-year old rook so far in the preseason, with a lot of his minutes coming with the human deadweights of Dunn, Felicio and Val. Show of hands, who thought he'd be able to easily score in pre-season after summer league play? How many thought he'd be an adequate defender from the get-go? So, what if he's not a PG? I don't care one bit. His scoring numbers are off the charts good and the fact that he can't yet make fast reads on his passes, 4 games into his career is a thing to be really worried about? Remember how bad Trae looked 3 months into his first season? Anyhow, I think the Bulls found a gem, and he should get a lot of time to develop, without actually hurting the team's chance for winning, which is the best of all scenarios.

And the harping on Lauri is getting a bit overdone. It reminds of people criticizing Doncic on the general board last year saying he doesn't have much more upside left. This was after he averaged like 26/10/8 for a couple of months. My response back then was who effin' cares if he doesn't get even one bit better? He's playing like prime Bird already. Same with Lauri--he was at 20/10 as a soph, who can put up 7 3s a game and therefore act as a magnet when he floats on the outside. He's right there in pre-season, even slightly better, because his shot looks a little smoother. But, all the horrors, he may not be the 26/12 player we saw last February. Sell fast, before the news spread and people avoid him like the plague! I bet you if you make the call, 29 other teams will try to bid on him. Young bigs that are at 20/10 don't grow on trees. Ones that can stroke it from deep even less so. I was happy that he was playing much better on D this preseason--he was moving his feet, he was rotating better. So let's revisit--a 20/10 guy that can shoot 3s AND play D (if he can fully get there) is somebody you hang onto, no matter what, unless a top 5 player in his prime is coming back for him.

Anyhow, I have not seen the Bulls play that well in many years, since the last Thibs team got beat by LeBron. I'm excited and won't care how the Bulls win, who gets the points, etc.

[bad knees]

First, I would start WCJ for continuity sake. He’ll be starting later, so start him now and manage his minutes as needed.

Second, I think you are ignoring the rationale from everyone (except JimmyJammer, whose theory does not appear conditional or temporary). The general thought essentially appears to be starting Kornet temporarily while WCJ works his way back into game condition. It’s not unsound logic.

yeah i mean i like luke kornet and i think he should get a bunch of playing time!

i just think it's absurd to suggest it would be good to yank wendell carter from the starting lineup. we have a vested interest in him becoming our long-term center, he is by all accounts the most talented center prospect on our roster, he should get used to playing next to the starters, we can limit his minutes without benching him (if that's even necessary), and there's no reason to assume that he is incapable of rounding into game shape by the time the season starts just because he looked funky in his first preseason game back from injury

Last year WCJ was gifted the starting job at C even though it was clear to everyone that Robin Lopez was a more productive player at that moment in time. This was entirely based on Wendell's draft number and his potential. Playing with the starters based on entitlement and potential led to WCJ having few opportunities on offense, and then falling apart a bit mentally when he missed some shots. He knew he had been gifted the job, and that he wasn't producing, and that all led to him going into a bit of a shell where he completely stopped looking for his offense. We all saw those painful games last year where he would get the ball in the high or low post and literally not even look to shoot. And he stopped taking 3 pointers altogether.

We don't want a repeat of that situation this year. We don't want to throw Wendell in as the starter, and then have him be outplayed by Kornet. Much better to make him earn the starting job. Wendell's injuries and rust can provide an explanation that is both legit and face-saving. He can still be talked about as a potential all-star piece, even if Kornet starts for now. And when WCJ starts to play like he deserves to start, and is given that opportunity, I have every confidence that he will show out as the great two-way player that I believe he will be.

I have loved WCJ from the moment we drafted him. I have always seen him as having more potential that Lauri because of his two-way capabilities. I just think that it would be better for him and for the team to have the UniKornet start for now.

[Finfro]

But come on, at this point, that's just looking for things to be unhappy about.

This!

[RSP83]

I can't remember the last time we have this much scoring. I shouldn't be surprised with where the league have been going, but I remember since the Skiles era, Thibs, Hoiberg, we always talk about the need for more scoring but never materialized. Finally we have a team who can punish opponents when they slack on D.

Gotta give credits when its due to Boylen and Zach. Remember the slow pace offense last season? and the question mark on Zach's ability to get his teammates involved? Zach is becoming like DRose lite with three point shooting, and he's always on attack mode. He's getting better at pressuring defense without freezing out his teammates. Lauri, Porter, White, Young, Sato, and Zach all seem to fit well. I'm sure Carter will integrate himself just fine. I think Valentine can find spot minutes as floor spacer as well.

There will be games this season where we blow teams out of the water. I think we'll see this more often than we thought possible.

[RememberLu]

I can't remember the last time we have this much scoring. I shouldn't be surprised with where the league have been going, but I remember since the Skiles era, Thibs, Hoiberg, we always talk about the need for more scoring but never materialized. Finally we have a team who can punish opponents when they slack on D.

Gotta give credits when its due to Boylen and Zach. Remember the slow pace offense last season? and the question mark on Zach's ability to get his teammates involved? Zach is becoming like DRose lite with three point shooting, and he's always on attack mode. He's getting better at pressuring defense without freezing out his teammates. Lauri, Porter, White, Young, Sato, and Zach all seem to fit well. I'm sure Carter will integrate himself just fine. I think Valentine can find spot minutes as floor spacer as well.

There will be games this season where we blow teams out of the water. I think we'll see this more often than we thought possible.

Yeah too bad we never had this roster with Hoiberg, he would've loved it. Might've even seen the mythical "Hoiball" materialize

[madvillian]

I can't remember the last time we have this much scoring. I shouldn't be surprised with where the league have been going, but I remember since the Skiles era, Thibs, Hoiberg, we always talk about the need for more scoring but never materialized. Finally we have a team who can punish opponents when they slack on D.

Gotta give credits when its due to Boylen and Zach. Remember the slow pace offense last season? and the question mark on Zach's ability to get his teammates involved? Zach is becoming like DRose lite with three point shooting, and he's always on attack mode. He's getting better at pressuring defense without freezing out his teammates. Lauri, Porter, White, Young, Sato, and Zach all seem to fit well. I'm sure Carter will integrate himself just fine. I think Valentine can find spot minutes as floor spacer as well.

There will be games this season where we blow teams out of the water. I think we'll see this more often than we thought possible.

You can tell the Bulls are doing well as the bitching on the board is at a low. Good vibes all around. I'll be the first to start bitching again if BoyBall turns into a 30 win season but for now things are looking pretty good.