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OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond

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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1721 » by Dresden » Fri May 1, 2020 6:20 am

dice wrote:
Dresden wrote:
dice wrote:i don't think that's true at all. if you're above average across the board you're a super bowl contender.


But you were talking about having better contracts. I'm talking about talent. You could have a team full of 6th round talent, but be paying them slightly below what 6th rounders typically make. So you have better than average value contracts across the board. You aren't winning any Super Bowls that way. You have to have talented players, too, not just good value.

if you're paying 6th round talent less than 6th round pay, you've got gobs of money left over. if you have great players making what they're worth on the open market, you have no money left to fill out the roster and your team will be mediocre


Yes, you have gobs of money left over. But money doesn't throw for 4 TD's in a big game, or run back a kickoff for a TD, or come up with a huge sack when you need it. Players do those things, star players.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1722 » by dice » Fri May 1, 2020 6:57 am

Dresden wrote:
dice wrote:
Dresden wrote:
But you were talking about having better contracts. I'm talking about talent. You could have a team full of 6th round talent, but be paying them slightly below what 6th rounders typically make. So you have better than average value contracts across the board. You aren't winning any Super Bowls that way. You have to have talented players, too, not just good value.

if you're paying 6th round talent less than 6th round pay, you've got gobs of money left over. if you have great players making what they're worth on the open market, you have no money left to fill out the roster and your team will be mediocre


Yes, you have gobs of money left over. But money doesn't throw for 4 TD's in a big game, or run back a kickoff for a TD, or come up with a huge sack when you need it. Players do those things, star players.

i'm not suggesting that the money doesn't get spent on actual players :dontknow:

the point is that paying star free agent players big money doesn't help you win any more than having a more balanced approach when it comes to FAs. unless they're QBs. it's proven

you don't have to be a star to get a sack or run back a kickoff. if you have a lot of above average players it produces the exact same results as loads of average players and a few stars. but NONE of it works without having more money than your opponents to spend on free agents because you have more value contracts than they do

contracts/coaching/chemistry/culture. that's pretty much everything

stars on rookie contracts (kittle, mahomes, lamar, michael thomas, mccaffrey, bosa x2, henry, hill, watson, prescott, jacobs)? solid gold! especially QBs. because they're vastly outperforming their contracts and a stout roster can be built around them. stars on big contracts? meaningless. EXCEPT for QBs

largest cap hits (non QB) last season:

1 von miller (7 wins)

2 melvin ingram (5)
3 sammy watkins (12)
4 kyle fuller (8)
5 reshad jones (5)
6 OBJ (6)
7 andrew norwell (6)
8 allen robinson (8)
9 terron armstead (13)
10 darius slay (3.5)
11 jimmy smith (14)
12 bobby wagner (11)
13 tyron smith (8)
14 russell okung (5)
15 olivier vernon (6)
16 AJ bouye (6)
17 trent brown (7)
18 AJ green (2)
T19 TY hilton (7)
T19 JJ watt (10)
21 cameron heyward (8)
22 chandler jones (5.5)
23 geno atkins (2)
24 calais campbell (6)
25 joe staley (13)
26 dee ford (13)
27 josh norman (3)
28 david bakhtiari (13)
29 brandon williams (14)
30 jarvis landry (6)
31 justin houston (7)
32 deandre hopkins (10)

33 zack martin (8)
34 richard sherman (13)
35 amari cooper (8)
36 desmond trufant (3)
37 ryan kerrigan (3)
38 mike evans (7)
39 danielle hunter (10)
40 devin mccourty (12)
41 xavier rhodes (10)
42 taylor lewan (9)
43 CJ mosley (7)
44 jerry hughes (10)
45 malcom butler (9)
46 vic beasley (7)
47 jurrell casey (9)
48 jimmy graham (13)
49 tony jefferson (14)
50 brandon scherff (3)
51 stefon diggs (10)
52 donovan smith (7)
53 keenan allen (5)
54 trumaine johnson (7)
55 nate solder (4)
56 david decastro (8)
57 chris harris (7)
58 fletcher cox (9)
59 khalil mack (8)
60 ricky wagner (3.5)
61 alec ogletree (4)
62 larry fitzgerald (7)
63 joe haden (8)
64 riley reiff (10)

that list basically represents a 2 round draft of the most valued non-QB free agent stars. first round average team wins? 7.81. second round average? 7.89. because free agent stars don't matter unless they're QBs. so why do some of their teams succeed while others don't? VALUE CONTRACTS

but what if a team lands MORE free agent stars than the other teams? that doesn't matter either. teams w/ the most players on that list:

4 vikings
3 bears
3 chargers
3 browns
3 jags
3 ravens
3 cowboys
3 steelers
3 niners
3 washington
3 titans

avg. team wins? 8.2

those w/ the least:

1 eagles
1 bills
1 cards
1 chiefs
1 dolphins
1 saints
1 raiders
1 seahawks
1 pats

avg. team wins? 9.4

so the teams w/ the more balanced FA rosters (fewer big money contracts) actually did better than the ones loading up on FA stars
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1723 » by Susan » Fri May 1, 2020 3:54 pm

The Bears can draft a long term safety next year, they once again found a bandaid with Tashaun Gipson and more of a hybrid safety than HaHa was which should enable Eddie Jackson to thrive.

Having both safeties being capable of both playing in the box and ball hawks will be a huge upgrade over having to play Eddie at SS.

Comparing each defensive unit from 2018, 2019 and 2020:

Safeties:
2018 - Amos + Jackson = Amos was good in the box and a sure tackler but not a playmaker - he freed up Eddie to do his thing which was super dynamic and he truly benefited from the elite pass rush
2019 - HaHa + Jackson = HaHa was more in the playmaker role and Eddie cleaned up for him, not the ideal scenario but I feel like this helped Eddie develop better long term. Safeties made less plays because of HaHa being a worse playmaker than Eddie and the pass rush was down in 2019 due to Hicks' injury + Leonard Floyd had a small dip in play
2020 - Gipson + Eddie = Both guys are capable of being playmakers and cleaning up. Dunno if Gipson is as good as Amos at making the routine plays but Eddie has developed on this side of things and Gipson is clearly a better playmaker than Amos. These two should shine with the pass rush being extremely formidable with Quinn coming on and Hicks being back to 100%.

CBs:
2018 - Fuller + Prince + Bryce Callahan = Elite trio, Fuller shined as a playmaker with 7INTs, Prince had a career high with 3 INTs and Bryce was all over the place in the nickle position. Both starters rose because of the elite pass rush.
2019 - Fuller + Prince + Buster = Took a step back from 2018 IMO due to the pass rush, Fuller was still solid but depends on the QB making rushed decisions and they weren't under nearly as much pressure. Buster was OK but not as good as Callahan in 2018 but Callahan got a big deal in Denver and didn't play a single snap in 2019 so letting him walk was 100% the right move.
2020 - Fuller + Johnson + Buster/Duke = Johnson seems to have a really good grade on him as a playmaker and should be in a great position to thrive as the young guy with talent with 3 really good teammates in the secondary and an elite pass rush to support him. Fuller is still in his physical prime and could easily see himself going back to 2018 levels thanks to Quinn being an upgrade over Floyd. Not sure where the Nickle spot will wind up but maybe Duke Shelly can make a play for the starting role with Buster getting over 30.

Inside LBs:
2018 - Roquan + Danny T = Excellent play from these two, Roquan was a highly touted rookie who was solid as can be and Danny T was a vocal leader who provided strong play. Not really a playmaking spot but these two cleaned up and kept the defense together really well.
2019 - Roquan + Danny T + Kwit + KPL = Great play from this group all year long despite lots of turmoil. Roquan was making strides at being a playmaker from this spot before he had his personal issues then a season ending injury. Danny T also was good until his injury. Both Kwit and KPL came in and played really well after those guys went down, KPL coming off of the street to do so which makes me think this is a spot in which Pace can find talent for cheap and the coaching staff knows how to maximize talent out of this position.
2020 - Roquan + Danny T + ??? = Not sure about the backups here, but KPL's coming on last year gives me faith. Roquan should be taking a major step forward into elite status and provide a boost over his 2018 play. Danny T is a smart, strong player who probably isn't going to be as good as he was in 2018 due to physical decline but with Roquan emerging, this group should be better in 2020 than they were in 2018.

OLBs:
2018 - Mack + Floyd + Aaron Lynch = Mack was a monster, Floyd was not an elite pass rusher but really productive despite having a broken hand and Lynch was a decent player. Mack having a few missed games in the middle of the season was rough.
2019 - Mack + Floyd + Lynch = Everybody took a small step backwards, Lynch was a marginal player, Floyd never took that leap forward and Mack had an excellent year but not quite the DPOY level he was in 2018. Losing Hicks hurt Mack's production IMO.
2020 - Mack + Quinn + Trevis Gipson - Mack and Quinn will form the best pass rushing duo in the NFL without question and Trevis Gipson should in theory be a better playmaker than Lynch was. Quinn at his peak was a 19 sack 7 force fumble guy in 2013 but he's had some injury history since then. He's closer to Mack's level of a pass rusher than he is to Floyd's which is just scary to think about. If these two click and Gipson can come in and provide a spark, this unit will be the gas that the entire team thrives off of. The safeties and CBs are in place to thrive off of the pressure that these two (hopefully three) can generate and the ILBs are even good enough to be aggressive and make plays.

D-Line
2018 - Hicks + Goldman + RHH + Nichols = Great unit, Nichols and RHH both really came on in this year and showed some potential going forward. Goldman was a good strong starter and stayed healthy all year long. Hicks was super elite and got his first pro-bowl birth.
2019 - Hicks + Goldman + RHH + Nichols = Hicks only playing 5 games truly hurt the entire defense. He was a player the entire scheme relied upon and at 30 having him miss pretty much the entire year took a bit of shine off of the defense. He enabled Mack + the pass rush to be great in 2018 which enabled the secondary to be aggressive/elite. RHH + Nichols + Goldman were solid and are all in their physical primes.
2020 - Hicks + Goldman + RHH + Nichols = If Hicks can stay 100% all year, this whole thing has a chance to be beyond special. I have faith that we'll see good years out of the other three guys considering they all didn't have a drop off after Hicks went down last year and they are all in their physical peaks.

Keys: If Mack + Quinn + Hicks can stay healthy, this defense has the potential to be in the 1985 Bears, 2000 Ravens category. Teaming a DPOY winner in his physical prime in Mack with a 19 sack guy and an all-pro DLineman in Hicks is just crazy. If these three are firing then you enable Eddie Jackson to be special, Roquan to be a monster and put Gispon and Johnson in positions to make plays as well.

If the defense hits and stays healthy, having Foles at QB and an upgraded TE group and HOPEFULLY an upgraded running game, this team should be scary and could be a Super Bowl contender for the second out of three years.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1724 » by dice » Fri May 1, 2020 11:20 pm

Susan wrote:The Bears can draft a long term safety next year, they once again found a bandaid with Tashaun Gipson and more of a hybrid safety than HaHa was which should enable Eddie Jackson to thrive.

Having both safeties being capable of both playing in the box and ball hawks will be a huge upgrade over having to play Eddie at SS.

any relation to taj gibson?

gipson's PFF player grades:

2019 59.5
2018 70.7
2017 76.2
2016 53.1
2015 49.3
2014 79.2
2013 63.0
2012 61.7

avg. 64.1

kinda all over the place

clinton-dix last season: 74.2
eddie jackson: 66.9 (93.2 prior season, 68.3 as rookie)

Keys: If Mack + Quinn + Hicks can stay healthy, this defense has the potential to be in the 1985 Bears, 2000 Ravens category. Teaming a DPOY winner in his physical prime in Mack with a 19 sack guy and an all-pro DLineman in Hicks is just crazy. If these three are firing then you enable Eddie Jackson to be special, Roquan to be a monster and put Gispon and Johnson in positions to make plays as well.

i dunno about '85/'86 bears, but certainly potential to be even better than the 2018 team. team defensive DVOAs going back to '85:

-42.4 1991 eagles

-33.6 1985 bears
-33.6 1986 bears

-31.8 2002 bucs
-29.0 2008 steelers
-28.5 2004 bills
-27.8 2008 ravens
-26.7 2012 bears
-26.5 1988 vikings
-26.0 2018 bears
-25.9 2013 seahawks
-25.8 2015 broncos
-25.5 2009 jets
-25.5 2019 pats
-25.0 2000 titans
-25.0 2003 ravens
-24.5 1991 saints
-23.8 2000 ravens

only bears and ravens w/ multiple appearances on list
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1725 » by MalagaBulls » Sat May 2, 2020 7:55 pm

Bears to decline Trub's 5th year option.

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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1726 » by transplant » Sat May 2, 2020 8:39 pm

The Bears declining Trubisky's 5th year option means something, but it doesn't mean what some might think it means.

When the Bears gave up significant money and a 4th round pick for Foles, it clearly meant that they weren't completely confident with Trubisky as QB1 going forward. To me, this is further evidence of this rather than anything new. The Bears FO and coaching staff aren't expecting Mitch to be "The Guy." If Trubisky could prove to be The Guy, this would still be the best case for the Bears, but the team isn't counting on it. If Trubisky steps up, there are still lots of ways to keep him.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1727 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat May 2, 2020 9:08 pm

transplant wrote:The Bears declining Trubisky's 5th year option means something, but it doesn't mean what some might think it means.

When the Bears gave up significant money and a 4th round pick for Foles, it clearly meant that they weren't completely confident with Trubisky as QB1 going forward. To me, this is further evidence of this rather than anything new. The Bears FO and coaching staff aren't expecting Mitch to be "The Guy." If Trubisky could prove to be The Guy, this would still be the best case for the Bears, but the team isn't counting on it. If Trubisky steps up, there are still lots of ways to keep him.


It was 24 million dollars, which is crazy expensive. And they would have been on the hook for it if he was injured during the season.

Mitch outperforming that option is a great problem, and one the front office is begging to happen. Could easily franchise tag him and have another year of reviewing him, or give him his next contract. Or if he sucks, then you move on and don’t have to worry about him getting injured.

FWIW, the 49ers also didn’t pick up Solomon Thomas’s option, who they drafted when they traded back a spot with the bears.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1728 » by Kurt Heimlich » Sun May 3, 2020 7:03 pm

The Trubisky pick will haunt the franchise for a long time. Taking Blake Bortles 2.0 over a potential GOAT and another elite level QB (who was the more obvious choice if you were going to go QB in 2017) is as crippling a move as they come. Now Gar/Pax have been taken to the curb, Pace is public enemy #1 for Chicago front offices. He needs a playoff birth to get off the ropes at this point.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1729 » by Dresden » Sun May 3, 2020 8:38 pm

Kurt Heimlich wrote:The Trubisky pick will haunt the franchise for a long time. Taking Blake Bortles 2.0 over a potential GOAT and another elite level QB (who was the more obvious choice if you were going to go QB in 2017) is as crippling a move as they come. Now Gar/Pax have been taken to the curb, Pace is public enemy #1 for Chicago front offices. He needs a playoff birth to get off the ropes at this point.


Yeah, that they could have had either Mahomes OR Watson, and instead picked someone who is a complete bust- that's the sort of thing that will set a franchise back years, and could easily be the difference between winning a SB or not.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1730 » by bullsnewdynasty » Sun May 3, 2020 10:44 pm

transplant wrote:The Bears declining Trubisky's 5th year option means something, but it doesn't mean what some might think it means.

When the Bears gave up significant money and a 4th round pick for Foles, it clearly meant that they weren't completely confident with Trubisky as QB1 going forward. To me, this is further evidence of this rather than anything new. The Bears FO and coaching staff aren't expecting Mitch to be "The Guy." If Trubisky could prove to be The Guy, this would still be the best case for the Bears, but the team isn't counting on it. If Trubisky steps up, there are still lots of ways to keep him.


Trubisky will be the backup. There's nothing more to analyze.

You don't trade a 4th round pick for Foles to be a backup QB, especially when Cam Newton, Jameis Winston, and Andy Dalton were available for (close to) nothing.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1731 » by dice » Mon May 4, 2020 12:20 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
transplant wrote:The Bears declining Trubisky's 5th year option means something, but it doesn't mean what some might think it means.

When the Bears gave up significant money and a 4th round pick for Foles, it clearly meant that they weren't completely confident with Trubisky as QB1 going forward. To me, this is further evidence of this rather than anything new. The Bears FO and coaching staff aren't expecting Mitch to be "The Guy." If Trubisky could prove to be The Guy, this would still be the best case for the Bears, but the team isn't counting on it. If Trubisky steps up, there are still lots of ways to keep him.


Trubisky will be the backup. There's nothing more to analyze.

You don't trade a 4th round pick for Foles to be a backup QB, especially when Cam Newton, Jameis Winston, and Andy Dalton were available for (close to) nothing.

we don't know what newton or winston will be available for. clearly the bears valued foles significantly more than dalton. because they're HOPING that foles can be a long-term answer (or push trubisky to substantially improve). dalton is obviously not that
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1732 » by Michael Jackson » Mon May 4, 2020 10:55 pm

dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:
transplant wrote:The Bears declining Trubisky's 5th year option means something, but it doesn't mean what some might think it means.

When the Bears gave up significant money and a 4th round pick for Foles, it clearly meant that they weren't completely confident with Trubisky as QB1 going forward. To me, this is further evidence of this rather than anything new. The Bears FO and coaching staff aren't expecting Mitch to be "The Guy." If Trubisky could prove to be The Guy, this would still be the best case for the Bears, but the team isn't counting on it. If Trubisky steps up, there are still lots of ways to keep him.


Trubisky will be the backup. There's nothing more to analyze.

You don't trade a 4th round pick for Foles to be a backup QB, especially when Cam Newton, Jameis Winston, and Andy Dalton were available for (close to) nothing.

we don't know what newton or winston will be available for. clearly the bears valued foles significantly more than dalton. because they're HOPING that foles can be a long-term answer (or push trubisky to substantially improve). dalton is obviously not that



And this point has been beaten to a pulp but they Know Foles
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1733 » by dice » Tue May 5, 2020 4:24 am

schedule will be released per usual. dolphins planning to allow 15K fans to be phased into the stadium on game day. i suspect that they'll just lop games off the front of the schedule and eliminate bye weeks if necessary, though that would create competitive balance issues (more home games for some teams). maybe they'd add those games back at the scheduled end of the regular season and postpone the playoffs
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1734 » by chitownsalesmen » Tue May 5, 2020 8:42 am

nomorezorro wrote:i don't think pace is a bad gm, necessarily, but i think he is flawed enough that if the team underwhelms next season, you should not feel bad at all about moving on from him in hopes of finding someone better.

he'll have had six seasons after this one; i think he is who he is at this point.



I think a compelling case can be made that Trubisky flaming out would be good enough reason to dump Pace. Not just the fact that he missed on a 1st round pick, but he traded up went against was the conventional top QB prospect which IMO was Watson and took the guy who "looked" like the guy instead of taking the guy that the tape said was the guy.

I feel the same way about Justin Herbert, a good looking, tall white guy who got drafted way too high based on"potential" and the right aesthetic. The tape shows a hugely inconsistent QB that makes slow reads, and a bad habit of staring down his receivers and throwing pass late putting his receivers in dangerous situations were they take unnecessary hits in traffic. Just a total train wreck of a QB prospect to take at #6 if you look at the tape.

I don't really care what anybody has to say their has been a concerted effort to keep black QB's from succeeding from Warren Moon to Lamar Jackson their has always been an apprehension with black QB's even squeaky clean Russell WIlson suffered from the stigma, and don't give me the "he's short" line, Johnny Manziel showed nothing but red flags at roughly the same size and got picked in the 1st round.

Hell, Dak Prescott who plays for one of the owners best known for taking care of his players and he can't secure a fair market long term deal, I wonder whats holding the Dallas Cowboys, only like the biggest money printing NFL team from backing up the brinks truck for their franchise QB, like almost every other team that has landed an above average QB has done in the last 15 years.

Not only has Dallas not agreed to terms with Dak, they in-fact went out and secured a QB(who just so happens to be white, go figure). All the while their was a former MVP QB on the market, who plays a more similar style to Dak then Dalton, and at one point a young former #1 overall QB who threw 30TD's and over 5k yards last season, now look I 100% understand apprehension on Winston but as a back-up? For what the saints paid him? Even if Dallas had to double or triple the NO offer thats and infinitely better option then not signing Dak and bringing in Dalton, at least theirs still some potential with Winston and Cam would have a revitalization playing behind their O-Line and having Zeke to feed the ball to.

With all that said, their are teams that are embracing the black QB's finally, and their are teams desperate to cling to the old way of thinking, those teams clinging to their "heritage" will be on the wrong side of history.

And before anyone goes into anti-SJW mode on me I hate identity politics, I regularly criticized President Obama, I don't think Donald Trump is a super villain. I'm simply coming at this from a factual point of view based on what I see. I want to eliminate race from the conversation of which player throws a football better but it is still clearly a sticking point in how professional football teams handle the position if you apply an ounce of scrutiny to the draft process, the way Black QB's are criticized in the media and have been for decades although I feel we have reached a turning point of sorts this past season with Jackson taking home the regular season MVP, Mahomes continuing his dominance from his 2018 and winning the Super Bowl and capturing Super Bowl MVP and even Watson having an amazing play-off showing against Buffalo coming back.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1735 » by 2018C3 » Tue May 5, 2020 10:13 pm

I believe Trubisky will get the start for the first few games to give him one more chance to fail.

Around game three or four we will probably see Foles get the call. The reason I believe Trubisky gets the start, is if he fail's you could bring Foles in as a potential savior. If Foles beats out Trubisky in camp and later fails, The media coverage would be too harsh if you had to bring Trubisky back in as the starter.

I'm pretty confident Trubisky is the starter for at least the first few games, but he will be on a very short leash and if he wants to keep his job he better get at least two wins early on.

If I'm right and they do start him, they better let him take off and run down field whenever he wants, as it one thing he is actually pretty decent at. I still think there is a small chance he needs this freedom to be able to have any chance of being successful.

I also want to see key guys playing significant minutes in pre-season, and fighting to earn spots. (minus Khalil Mack, and possibly a few others). The pre-season plan last season failed, it can not be attacked the same way.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1736 » by dice » Wed May 6, 2020 5:31 am

chitownsalesmen wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:i don't think pace is a bad gm, necessarily, but i think he is flawed enough that if the team underwhelms next season, you should not feel bad at all about moving on from him in hopes of finding someone better.

he'll have had six seasons after this one; i think he is who he is at this point.



I think a compelling case can be made that Trubisky flaming out would be good enough reason to dump Pace. Not just the fact that he missed on a 1st round pick, but he traded up went against was the conventional top QB prospect which IMO was Watson and took the guy who "looked" like the guy instead of taking the guy that the tape said was the guy.

trubisky was the top prospect. the issue was the bears thinking that he was head and shoulders the best prospect, which was NOT the general consensus

I don't really care what anybody has to say their has been a concerted effort to keep black QB's from succeeding from Warren Moon to Lamar Jackson their has always been an apprehension with black QB's even squeaky clean Russell WIlson suffered from the stigma, and don't give me the "he's short" line, Johnny Manziel showed nothing but red flags at roughly the same size and got picked in the 1st round.

a concerted effort by who? are nfl organizations not operating independently and in their own best interests? a team has no incentive whatsoever to pass on a black QB if they think he's the best available option to help them. unless they think that a white QB will be a better face for their franchise or whatever. but he's gotta be an excellent player first

johnny manziel destroyed college football. demolished it. russell wilson, like tom brady, struggled in college and got drafted low as a result. drew brees fell to the 2nd round because he was short. doug flutie fell to the ELEVENTH round because he was short. so that's obviously a "line" that is not just being used as an excuse to discriminate against black QBs

Hell, Dak Prescott who plays for one of the owners best known for taking care of his players and he can't secure a fair market long term deal, I wonder whats holding the Dallas Cowboys, only like the biggest money printing NFL team from backing up the brinks truck for their franchise QB, like almost every other team that has landed an above average QB has done in the last 15 years.

the new england patriots just refused to pay tom brady. dak prescott is not tom brady. why are the cowboys not making prescott the highest paid player in the league? business. they don't have to. they have the option of paying him less w/ the franchise tag, there's still question whether he's a truly elite QB, they have the leverage of knowing that the QB of the cowboys stands to make more money from endorsements, and they're cap strapped due to paying huge money to their other black stars (including their talented doofus RB in an era when few teams are paying RBs big money)

dak will be the highest paid QB in the league in 2020

Not only has Dallas not agreed to terms with Dak, they in-fact went out and secured a QB(who just so happens to be white, go figure)

they drafted dak! dalton is likely only going to make $3 mil, which is very cheap for a proven starter

All the while their was a former MVP QB on the market, who plays a more similar style to Dak then Dalton, and at one point a young former #1 overall QB who threw 30TD's and over 5k yards last season, now look I 100% understand apprehension on Winston but as a back-up? For what the saints paid him? Even if Dallas had to double or triple the NO offer thats and infinitely better option then not signing Dak and bringing in Dalton

1) winston quite obviously took less with the hopes to be the starting QB in waiting in new orleans
2) you conveniently left out his ungodly interception totals last season
3) the most obvious point of all: andy dalton is not a threat to dak prescott. newton and winston could have been seen as potential long-term replacements for dak and would have exacerbated tensions

I want to eliminate race from the conversation of which player throws a football better but it is still clearly a sticking point in how professional football teams handle the position if you apply an ounce of scrutiny to the draft process

except that you yourself haven't applied an ounce of genuine scrutiny. here are the black QBs selected in the first round this century:

worth taking at their draft position:

murray (appears to be), jackson, mahomes, watson, bridgewater, RGIII, newton, vick

not worth taking:

haskins (appears not to be), manuel, freeman, russell, young, campbell, leftwich

that's nearly an even split. so it's not like the best black QB prospects are obviously outperforming their draft positions

the QB racism discussion was on the back-burner for many years. the reason that it SEEMS to be a thing again is because it just so happens that 3 black QBs over the course of 2 drafts in 2017 and 2018 have come on like gangbusters. none of them were surefire stars based on their college resumes

now, are teams taking fliers on more WHITE QB prospects than they should be? quite possibly. first round winners and losers from this century:

winners - wentz, luck, tannehill, stafford, ryan, flacco, cutler, rodgers, eli, rivers, big ben, palmer, pennington
losers - rosen, trubisky, lynch, bortles, manziel, weeden, locker, gabbert, ponder, bradford, tebow, quinn, leinart, losman, boller, grossman, carr, harrington, ramsey

13 winners, 19 losers. random variation is a possibility, but the likelihood is that there is a subtle subconscious tendency to draft white QB prospects too highly

the way Black QB's are criticized in the media...

this may well be true. starting w/ kaepernick
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1737 » by chitownsalesmen » Wed May 6, 2020 10:40 am

dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:i don't think pace is a bad gm, necessarily, but i think he is flawed enough that if the team underwhelms next season, you should not feel bad at all about moving on from him in hopes of finding someone better.

he'll have had six seasons after this one; i think he is who he is at this point.



I think a compelling case can be made that Trubisky flaming out would be good enough reason to dump Pace. Not just the fact that he missed on a 1st round pick, but he traded up went against was the conventional top QB prospect which IMO was Watson and took the guy who "looked" like the guy instead of taking the guy that the tape said was the guy.

trubisky was the top prospect. the issue was the bears thinking that he was head and shoulders the best prospect, which was NOT the general consensus

I don't really care what anybody has to say their has been a concerted effort to keep black QB's from succeeding from Warren Moon to Lamar Jackson their has always been an apprehension with black QB's even squeaky clean Russell WIlson suffered from the stigma, and don't give me the "he's short" line, Johnny Manziel showed nothing but red flags at roughly the same size and got picked in the 1st round.

a concerted effort by who? are nfl organizations not operating independently and in their own best interests? a team has no incentive whatsoever to pass on a black QB if they think he's the best available option to help them. unless they think that a white QB will be a better face for their franchise or whatever. but he's gotta be an excellent player first

johnny manziel destroyed college football. demolished it. russell wilson, like tom brady, struggled in college and got drafted low as a result. drew brees fell to the 2nd round because he was short. doug flutie fell to the ELEVENTH round because he was short. so that's obviously a "line" that is not just being used as an excuse to discriminate against black QBs

Hell, Dak Prescott who plays for one of the owners best known for taking care of his players and he can't secure a fair market long term deal, I wonder whats holding the Dallas Cowboys, only like the biggest money printing NFL team from backing up the brinks truck for their franchise QB, like almost every other team that has landed an above average QB has done in the last 15 years.

the new england patriots just refused to pay tom brady. dak prescott is not tom brady. why are the cowboys not making prescott the highest paid player in the league? business. they don't have to. they have the option of paying him less w/ the franchise tag, there's still question whether he's a truly elite QB, they have the leverage of knowing that the QB of the cowboys stands to make more money from endorsements, and they're cap strapped due to paying huge money to their other black stars (including their talented doofus RB in an era when few teams are paying RBs big money)

dak will be the highest paid QB in the league in 2020

Not only has Dallas not agreed to terms with Dak, they in-fact went out and secured a QB(who just so happens to be white, go figure)

they drafted dak! dalton is likely only going to make $3 mil, which is very cheap for a proven starter

All the while their was a former MVP QB on the market, who plays a more similar style to Dak then Dalton, and at one point a young former #1 overall QB who threw 30TD's and over 5k yards last season, now look I 100% understand apprehension on Winston but as a back-up? For what the saints paid him? Even if Dallas had to double or triple the NO offer thats and infinitely better option then not signing Dak and bringing in Dalton

1) winston quite obviously took less with the hopes to be the starting QB in waiting in new orleans
2) you conveniently left out his ungodly interception totals last season
3) the most obvious point of all: andy dalton is not a threat to dak prescott. newton and winston could have been seen as potential long-term replacements for dak and would have exacerbated tensions

I want to eliminate race from the conversation of which player throws a football better but it is still clearly a sticking point in how professional football teams handle the position if you apply an ounce of scrutiny to the draft process

except that you yourself haven't applied an ounce of genuine scrutiny. here are the black QBs selected in the first round this century:

worth taking at their draft position:

murray (appears to be), jackson, mahomes, watson, bridgewater, RGIII, newton, vick

not worth taking:

haskins (appears not to be), manuel, freeman, russell, young, campbell, leftwich

that's nearly an even split. so it's not like the best black QB prospects are obviously outperforming their draft positions

the QB racism discussion was on the back-burner for many years. the reason that it SEEMS to be a thing again is because it just so happens that 3 black QBs over the course of 2 drafts in 2017 and 2018 have come on like gangbusters. none of them were surefire stars based on their college resumes

now, are teams taking fliers on more WHITE QB prospects than they should be? quite possibly. first round winners and losers from this century:

winners - wentz, luck, tannehill, stafford, ryan, flacco, cutler, rodgers, eli, rivers, big ben, palmer, pennington
losers - rosen, trubisky, lynch, bortles, manziel, weeden, locker, gabbert, ponder, bradford, tebow, quinn, leinart, losman, boller, grossman, carr, harrington, ramsey

13 winners, 19 losers. random variation is a possibility, but the likelihood is that there is a subtle subconscious tendency to draft white QB prospects too highly

the way Black QB's are criticized in the media...

this may well be true. starting w/ kaepernick



Bro look I could go line by line with you on all of this, I have one question for you do you think black QB's are given an equal opportunity to succeed? Not just even in the nfl but in football in general? do you know what warren moon went through? He was told he was too short to play QB at 6'3", look into doug willams career and just exactly where the state of Black QB's was as recently as the late 80's was shameful, and while I'm not going to say things haven't improved look anytime a black QB has even a hint of adversity they are instantly scrutinized to a level a white QB would never be, and black QB's are also always expected to be able to step in to play far sooner then their white counter parts.

Their is just no way any black QB could have been drafted #2 then went on to play as terribly as Trubisky has over the past 3 seasons and still be on the same roster, let alone still in consideration for starting! Its pathetic and if you want to ignore the reality of how biased the entire process is to black QB's then we really don't have much to discuss as I've seen it first hand.

A young brother in pop warren shows some ability to throw a ball, and maybe misses a few reads and instead of being coached on his progression or his drop back, he's quietly told how much more of an "asset" he would be to the team out wide catching from the coaches handed pick blonde haired nephew.

You can add up how many Black QB's fail vs. how many White QB's fail but thats very similar to say for example comparing the number of blacks arrested for drug possession vs. the number of whites arrested for drug possession, I really didn't give a good dnam what the numbers of broken system say.

QB's and offensive line are the last bastions of hope for white football players, every other position is dominated by blacks and i suspect soon the average NFL QB's complexion to be far darker in say 10-15 years if the current trends continues.

It's not just that a few good black QB's have entered the league in the last few years its that arguably 4/5 top QBs are black (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson) and they are all changing the game in radical ways not seen since, you guessed it Mike Vick.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1738 » by dice » Wed May 6, 2020 8:56 pm

chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:

I think a compelling case can be made that Trubisky flaming out would be good enough reason to dump Pace. Not just the fact that he missed on a 1st round pick, but he traded up went against was the conventional top QB prospect which IMO was Watson and took the guy who "looked" like the guy instead of taking the guy that the tape said was the guy.

trubisky was the top prospect. the issue was the bears thinking that he was head and shoulders the best prospect, which was NOT the general consensus

I don't really care what anybody has to say their has been a concerted effort to keep black QB's from succeeding from Warren Moon to Lamar Jackson their has always been an apprehension with black QB's even squeaky clean Russell WIlson suffered from the stigma, and don't give me the "he's short" line, Johnny Manziel showed nothing but red flags at roughly the same size and got picked in the 1st round.

a concerted effort by who? are nfl organizations not operating independently and in their own best interests? a team has no incentive whatsoever to pass on a black QB if they think he's the best available option to help them. unless they think that a white QB will be a better face for their franchise or whatever. but he's gotta be an excellent player first

johnny manziel destroyed college football. demolished it. russell wilson, like tom brady, struggled in college and got drafted low as a result. drew brees fell to the 2nd round because he was short. doug flutie fell to the ELEVENTH round because he was short. so that's obviously a "line" that is not just being used as an excuse to discriminate against black QBs

Hell, Dak Prescott who plays for one of the owners best known for taking care of his players and he can't secure a fair market long term deal, I wonder whats holding the Dallas Cowboys, only like the biggest money printing NFL team from backing up the brinks truck for their franchise QB, like almost every other team that has landed an above average QB has done in the last 15 years.

the new england patriots just refused to pay tom brady. dak prescott is not tom brady. why are the cowboys not making prescott the highest paid player in the league? business. they don't have to. they have the option of paying him less w/ the franchise tag, there's still question whether he's a truly elite QB, they have the leverage of knowing that the QB of the cowboys stands to make more money from endorsements, and they're cap strapped due to paying huge money to their other black stars (including their talented doofus RB in an era when few teams are paying RBs big money)

dak will be the highest paid QB in the league in 2020

Not only has Dallas not agreed to terms with Dak, they in-fact went out and secured a QB(who just so happens to be white, go figure)

they drafted dak! dalton is likely only going to make $3 mil, which is very cheap for a proven starter

All the while their was a former MVP QB on the market, who plays a more similar style to Dak then Dalton, and at one point a young former #1 overall QB who threw 30TD's and over 5k yards last season, now look I 100% understand apprehension on Winston but as a back-up? For what the saints paid him? Even if Dallas had to double or triple the NO offer thats and infinitely better option then not signing Dak and bringing in Dalton

1) winston quite obviously took less with the hopes to be the starting QB in waiting in new orleans
2) you conveniently left out his ungodly interception totals last season
3) the most obvious point of all: andy dalton is not a threat to dak prescott. newton and winston could have been seen as potential long-term replacements for dak and would have exacerbated tensions

I want to eliminate race from the conversation of which player throws a football better but it is still clearly a sticking point in how professional football teams handle the position if you apply an ounce of scrutiny to the draft process

except that you yourself haven't applied an ounce of genuine scrutiny. here are the black QBs selected in the first round this century:

worth taking at their draft position:

murray (appears to be), jackson, mahomes, watson, bridgewater, RGIII, newton, vick

not worth taking:

haskins (appears not to be), manuel, freeman, russell, young, campbell, leftwich

that's nearly an even split. so it's not like the best black QB prospects are obviously outperforming their draft positions

the QB racism discussion was on the back-burner for many years. the reason that it SEEMS to be a thing again is because it just so happens that 3 black QBs over the course of 2 drafts in 2017 and 2018 have come on like gangbusters. none of them were surefire stars based on their college resumes

now, are teams taking fliers on more WHITE QB prospects than they should be? quite possibly. first round winners and losers from this century:

winners - wentz, luck, tannehill, stafford, ryan, flacco, cutler, rodgers, eli, rivers, big ben, palmer, pennington
losers - rosen, trubisky, lynch, bortles, manziel, weeden, locker, gabbert, ponder, bradford, tebow, quinn, leinart, losman, boller, grossman, carr, harrington, ramsey

13 winners, 19 losers. random variation is a possibility, but the likelihood is that there is a subtle subconscious tendency to draft white QB prospects too highly

the way Black QB's are criticized in the media...

this may well be true. starting w/ kaepernick



Bro look I could go line by line with you on all of this, I have one question for you do you think black QB's are given an equal opportunity to succeed?

no. and if you read my post that's exactly what i said: white QBs are given opportunities that they maybe shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that black QB's AREN'T. because they have been for at least 20 years

do you know what warren moon went through? He was told he was too short to play QB at 6'3", look into doug willams career and just exactly where the state of Black QB's was as recently as the late 80's was shameful

of course. but i wasn't talking about the 1980s

and black QB's are also always expected to be able to step in to play far sooner then their white counter parts.

didn't you just say they weren't getting opportunities? now you're saying they're getting opportunities too quickly!

and i don't think you're correct on that point anyway. it makes no sense

Their is just no way any black QB could have been drafted #2 then went on to play as terribly as Trubisky has over the past 3 seasons and still be on the same roster, let alone still in consideration for starting!

complete and utter nonsense. first of all, trubisky made the pro bowl the season before last. NO QB TAKEN #2 OVERALL would be kicked to the curb after a single season of regression whether he is white, black or purple

jamarcus russell played much worse than trubisky for his 3 seasons in the league before the raiders gave up on him. did nothing but stink up the stadium. meanwhile tim tebow, a guy any team would want to be the face of their franchise - a white jesus of sorts - didn't get the opportunities that many people felt he deserved. he played better than russell and got about half the snaps. so you're making **** up

You can add up how many Black QB's fail vs. how many White QB's fail but thats very similar to say for example comparing the number of blacks arrested for drug possession vs. the number of whites arrested for drug possession, I really didn't give a good dnam what the numbers of broken system say.

you're right. facts be damned. your emotions are all that matters. if a black QB fails, it's someone else's fault. if he succeeds, he should've been drafted higher. scouts, white and black alike, should have put aside their prejudices and realized that the black player's struggles in college were due to coaching

It's not just that a few good black QB's have entered the league in the last few years its that arguably 4/5 top QBs are black (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson) and they are all changing the game in radical ways not seen since, you guessed it Mike Vick.

and those that failed didn't change the game at all

none of those guys you mentioned have changed the game at all other than jackson, by the way. mahomes is largely a pocket passer with a big arm. he's just really damn good. wilson is the evolution of steve young and fran tarkenton before him. deshaun watson is what johnny manziel was supposed to be
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1739 » by fleet » Thu May 7, 2020 3:16 am

Trubisky would be in the category of relatively raw compared to the other options of Watson and and Mahomes. His physical upside was no better. And scouts can get tunnel vision on certain guys, but the points being made here about the uncertainty of the position *should* place a premium on more polished prospects all things being equal, and they were equal at best. GMs have to be able to see that reducing as many question marks as possible in this scenario. Pace absolutely did not reduce the question marks by choosing Trubisky. When you trade up anyway, the rawest prospect seems like the worst choice. If you commit to that path of risk, you have to be right. Raw is what you go for later in the first round, again, all things being equal in terms of physical upside.

Hypothetical.... If Trevor Lawrence was more raw than other prospects, his physical upside is so rare, a GM could be forgiven choosing him over other available options. Trubisky never had any physical upside superiority like that Vs Watson and Mahomes. It was a major career killing mistake. We don’t mind evaluating a GMs mistakes favorably if there was a rationale on paper which justifies rolling the dice. Pace didn’t have to do this, the rationale did not exist on paper. Conviction alone is not good enough
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1740 » by chitownsalesmen » Thu May 7, 2020 11:21 pm

dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:trubisky was the top prospect. the issue was the bears thinking that he was head and shoulders the best prospect, which was NOT the general consensus


a concerted effort by who? are nfl organizations not operating independently and in their own best interests? a team has no incentive whatsoever to pass on a black QB if they think he's the best available option to help them. unless they think that a white QB will be a better face for their franchise or whatever. but he's gotta be an excellent player first

johnny manziel destroyed college football. demolished it. russell wilson, like tom brady, struggled in college and got drafted low as a result. drew brees fell to the 2nd round because he was short. doug flutie fell to the ELEVENTH round because he was short. so that's obviously a "line" that is not just being used as an excuse to discriminate against black QBs


the new england patriots just refused to pay tom brady. dak prescott is not tom brady. why are the cowboys not making prescott the highest paid player in the league? business. they don't have to. they have the option of paying him less w/ the franchise tag, there's still question whether he's a truly elite QB, they have the leverage of knowing that the QB of the cowboys stands to make more money from endorsements, and they're cap strapped due to paying huge money to their other black stars (including their talented doofus RB in an era when few teams are paying RBs big money)

dak will be the highest paid QB in the league in 2020


they drafted dak! dalton is likely only going to make $3 mil, which is very cheap for a proven starter


1) winston quite obviously took less with the hopes to be the starting QB in waiting in new orleans
2) you conveniently left out his ungodly interception totals last season
3) the most obvious point of all: andy dalton is not a threat to dak prescott. newton and winston could have been seen as potential long-term replacements for dak and would have exacerbated tensions


except that you yourself haven't applied an ounce of genuine scrutiny. here are the black QBs selected in the first round this century:

worth taking at their draft position:

murray (appears to be), jackson, mahomes, watson, bridgewater, RGIII, newton, vick

not worth taking:

haskins (appears not to be), manuel, freeman, russell, young, campbell, leftwich

that's nearly an even split. so it's not like the best black QB prospects are obviously outperforming their draft positions

the QB racism discussion was on the back-burner for many years. the reason that it SEEMS to be a thing again is because it just so happens that 3 black QBs over the course of 2 drafts in 2017 and 2018 have come on like gangbusters. none of them were surefire stars based on their college resumes

now, are teams taking fliers on more WHITE QB prospects than they should be? quite possibly. first round winners and losers from this century:

winners - wentz, luck, tannehill, stafford, ryan, flacco, cutler, rodgers, eli, rivers, big ben, palmer, pennington
losers - rosen, trubisky, lynch, bortles, manziel, weeden, locker, gabbert, ponder, bradford, tebow, quinn, leinart, losman, boller, grossman, carr, harrington, ramsey

13 winners, 19 losers. random variation is a possibility, but the likelihood is that there is a subtle subconscious tendency to draft white QB prospects too highly


this may well be true. starting w/ kaepernick



Bro look I could go line by line with you on all of this, I have one question for you do you think black QB's are given an equal opportunity to succeed?

no. and if you read my post that's exactly what i said: white QBs are given opportunities that they maybe shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that black QB's AREN'T. because they have been for at least 20 years

do you know what warren moon went through? He was told he was too short to play QB at 6'3", look into doug willams career and just exactly where the state of Black QB's was as recently as the late 80's was shameful

of course. but i wasn't talking about the 1980s

and black QB's are also always expected to be able to step in to play far sooner then their white counter parts.

didn't you just say they weren't getting opportunities? now you're saying they're getting opportunities too quickly!

and i don't think you're correct on that point anyway. it makes no sense

Their is just no way any black QB could have been drafted #2 then went on to play as terribly as Trubisky has over the past 3 seasons and still be on the same roster, let alone still in consideration for starting!

complete and utter nonsense. first of all, trubisky made the pro bowl the season before last. NO QB TAKEN #2 OVERALL would be kicked to the curb after a single season of regression whether he is white, black or purple

jamarcus russell played much worse than trubisky for his 3 seasons in the league before the raiders gave up on him. did nothing but stink up the stadium. meanwhile tim tebow, a guy any team would want to be the face of their franchise - a white jesus of sorts - didn't get the opportunities that many people felt he deserved. he played better than russell and got about half the snaps. so you're making **** up

You can add up how many Black QB's fail vs. how many White QB's fail but thats very similar to say for example comparing the number of blacks arrested for drug possession vs. the number of whites arrested for drug possession, I really didn't give a good dnam what the numbers of broken system say.

you're right. facts be damned. your emotions are all that matters. if a black QB fails, it's someone else's fault. if he succeeds, he should've been drafted higher. scouts, white and black alike, should have put aside their prejudices and realized that the black player's struggles in college were due to coaching

It's not just that a few good black QB's have entered the league in the last few years its that arguably 4/5 top QBs are black (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson) and they are all changing the game in radical ways not seen since, you guessed it Mike Vick.

and those that failed didn't change the game at all

none of those guys you mentioned have changed the game at all other than jackson, by the way. mahomes is largely a pocket passer with a big arm. he's just really damn good. wilson is the evolution of steve young and fran tarkenton before him. deshaun watson is what johnny manziel was supposed to be



Ok bro listen if you think a black QB's get the same shake I'm not going to try to compare notes with you any further.
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