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OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond

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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1741 » by dice » Fri May 8, 2020 12:19 am

chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:

Bro look I could go line by line with you on all of this, I have one question for you do you think black QB's are given an equal opportunity to succeed?

no. and if you read my post that's exactly what i said: white QBs are given opportunities that they maybe shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that black QB's AREN'T. because they have been for at least 20 years

do you know what warren moon went through? He was told he was too short to play QB at 6'3", look into doug willams career and just exactly where the state of Black QB's was as recently as the late 80's was shameful

of course. but i wasn't talking about the 1980s

and black QB's are also always expected to be able to step in to play far sooner then their white counter parts.

didn't you just say they weren't getting opportunities? now you're saying they're getting opportunities too quickly!

and i don't think you're correct on that point anyway. it makes no sense

Their is just no way any black QB could have been drafted #2 then went on to play as terribly as Trubisky has over the past 3 seasons and still be on the same roster, let alone still in consideration for starting!

complete and utter nonsense. first of all, trubisky made the pro bowl the season before last. NO QB TAKEN #2 OVERALL would be kicked to the curb after a single season of regression whether he is white, black or purple

jamarcus russell played much worse than trubisky for his 3 seasons in the league before the raiders gave up on him. did nothing but stink up the stadium. meanwhile tim tebow, a guy any team would want to be the face of their franchise - a white jesus of sorts - didn't get the opportunities that many people felt he deserved. he played better than russell and got about half the snaps. so you're making **** up

You can add up how many Black QB's fail vs. how many White QB's fail but thats very similar to say for example comparing the number of blacks arrested for drug possession vs. the number of whites arrested for drug possession, I really didn't give a good dnam what the numbers of broken system say.

you're right. facts be damned. your emotions are all that matters. if a black QB fails, it's someone else's fault. if he succeeds, he should've been drafted higher. scouts, white and black alike, should have put aside their prejudices and realized that the black player's struggles in college were due to coaching

It's not just that a few good black QB's have entered the league in the last few years its that arguably 4/5 top QBs are black (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson) and they are all changing the game in radical ways not seen since, you guessed it Mike Vick.

and those that failed didn't change the game at all

none of those guys you mentioned have changed the game at all other than jackson, by the way. mahomes is largely a pocket passer with a big arm. he's just really damn good. wilson is the evolution of steve young and fran tarkenton before him. deshaun watson is what johnny manziel was supposed to be



Ok bro listen if you think a black QB's get the same shake I'm not going to try to compare notes with you any further.

i don't. and i told you the same thing when you tried this junk after my last post (see my first response to your straightforward question above). get your fingers out of your ears

and you have no notes to compare. you have emotions. i am the one who did a little research, which happens to refute your position

-black QBs have more or less been getting a fair shake for a long, long time. the fact that you had to introduce warren moon (the first great black QB in league history, and due to that perhaps thus the last to have had to overcome substantial discrimination) into the conversation is evidence of that. they are getting opportunities that they deserve. because they are on average performing appropriately relative to their draft position. warren moon blew open doors that had been ajar. randall cunningham walked right through those doors (first pro bowl the same year as moon's first) and was a precursor to michael vick and lamar jackson stylistically. that was in the '80s. doug williams was a first round pick in the '70s and frankly didn't live up to that promise

-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

if there's any lesson here, it's not that GMs should be drafting a black QB INSTEAD of a white QB. it's that they should more often be drafting other POSITIONS high in the draft instead of the white QB
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1742 » by chitownsalesmen » Fri May 8, 2020 6:26 am

dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:no. and if you read my post that's exactly what i said: white QBs are given opportunities that they maybe shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that black QB's AREN'T. because they have been for at least 20 years


of course. but i wasn't talking about the 1980s


didn't you just say they weren't getting opportunities? now you're saying they're getting opportunities too quickly!

and i don't think you're correct on that point anyway. it makes no sense


complete and utter nonsense. first of all, trubisky made the pro bowl the season before last. NO QB TAKEN #2 OVERALL would be kicked to the curb after a single season of regression whether he is white, black or purple

jamarcus russell played much worse than trubisky for his 3 seasons in the league before the raiders gave up on him. did nothing but stink up the stadium. meanwhile tim tebow, a guy any team would want to be the face of their franchise - a white jesus of sorts - didn't get the opportunities that many people felt he deserved. he played better than russell and got about half the snaps. so you're making **** up


you're right. facts be damned. your emotions are all that matters. if a black QB fails, it's someone else's fault. if he succeeds, he should've been drafted higher. scouts, white and black alike, should have put aside their prejudices and realized that the black player's struggles in college were due to coaching


and those that failed didn't change the game at all

none of those guys you mentioned have changed the game at all other than jackson, by the way. mahomes is largely a pocket passer with a big arm. he's just really damn good. wilson is the evolution of steve young and fran tarkenton before him. deshaun watson is what johnny manziel was supposed to be



Ok bro listen if you think a black QB's get the same shake I'm not going to try to compare notes with you any further.

i don't. and i told you the same thing when you tried this junk after my last post (see my first response to your straightforward question above). get your fingers out of your ears

and you have no notes to compare. you have emotions. i am the one who did a little research, which happens to refute your position

-black QBs have more or less been getting a fair shake for a long, long time. the fact that you had to introduce warren moon (the first great black QB in league history, and due to that perhaps thus the last to have had to overcome substantial discrimination) into the conversation is evidence of that. they are getting opportunities that they deserve. because they are on average performing appropriately relative to their draft position. warren moon blew open doors that had been ajar. randall cunningham walked right through those doors (first pro bowl the same year as moon's first) and was a precursor to michael vick and lamar jackson stylistically. that was in the '80s. doug williams was a first round pick in the '70s and frankly didn't live up to that promise

-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

if there's any lesson here, it's not that GMs should be drafting a black QB INSTEAD of a white QB. it's that they should more often be drafting other POSITIONS high in the draft instead of the white QB



Look bro your a smart guy I respect you. but you are dead wrong about all of this. I never said s**t was still as bad as it was in the 1980's I'm saying the position is still tainted for black QB's. Their labeled "option QB's" their told to switch positions etc.

Look I'm not going to waste no more time on this topic with you. Listen to what Warren Moon, Deshaun Martin, and EJ Manuel had to say on the topic from late 2019.

I'm not going to lie and say I don't have emotion involved but I think you don't have enough first hand knowledge to be saying that I'm over stating what I'm saying becase I'm just telling you what I've seen and how I've seen talented young brothers who could throw a football go through personally. I know so many cats that was elite QB's in HS and weren't allowed to even peruse the next step. No one told tebow to go play h-back till after it was clear he couldn't play, and he also brought his whole fake catholic drama to the table. Yet Bill Polian who is an icon in the NFL, told Lamar Jackson that he wasn't a QB, and even admited he was wrong as he was using "the old standard" I'm not saying he was being deliberately racist, I'm not say its some conspiracy to keep blacks out of the QB position but theirs a lot of dogma that gets passed around in coaching circles, from HS-Pros that leads to a biased against blacks that do happen to play QB.


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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1743 » by dice » Fri May 8, 2020 7:30 am

chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:

Ok bro listen if you think a black QB's get the same shake I'm not going to try to compare notes with you any further.

i don't. and i told you the same thing when you tried this junk after my last post (see my first response to your straightforward question above). get your fingers out of your ears

and you have no notes to compare. you have emotions. i am the one who did a little research, which happens to refute your position

-black QBs have more or less been getting a fair shake for a long, long time. the fact that you had to introduce warren moon (the first great black QB in league history, and due to that perhaps thus the last to have had to overcome substantial discrimination) into the conversation is evidence of that. they are getting opportunities that they deserve. because they are on average performing appropriately relative to their draft position. warren moon blew open doors that had been ajar. randall cunningham walked right through those doors (first pro bowl the same year as moon's first) and was a precursor to michael vick and lamar jackson stylistically. that was in the '80s. doug williams was a first round pick in the '70s and frankly didn't live up to that promise

-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

if there's any lesson here, it's not that GMs should be drafting a black QB INSTEAD of a white QB. it's that they should more often be drafting other POSITIONS high in the draft instead of the white QB



Look bro your a smart guy I respect you. but you are dead wrong about all of this. I never said s**t was still as bad as it was in the 1980's I'm saying the position is still tainted for black QB's. Their labeled "option QB's" their told to switch positions etc.

black QBs tend to be more athletic, right? as such, when they fail at QB they are sometimes asked to try a different position. whereas the un-athletic white QB who fails is just kicked to the curb

Look I'm not going to waste no more time on this topic with you. Listen to what Warren Moon, Deshaun Martin, and EJ Manuel had to say on the topic from late 2019.

if EJ manuel had the ability to play QB in the nfl i find it hard to believe that he would not be doing so. he was drafted in the first round as a QB with the knowledge that he would be a project. no mention of the possibility of being switched to another position in his scouting reports. it turned out that he wasn't a good pocket passer. so he didn't get blitzed much and teams sat back in coverage and made him throw the ball from the pocket. he simply couldn't make accurate downfield throws. and that can't be taught

I'm not going to lie and say I don't have emotion involved but I think you don't have enough first hand knowledge to be saying that I'm over stating what I'm saying becase I'm just telling you what I've seen and how I've seen talented young brothers who could throw a football go through personally. I know so many cats that was elite QB's in HS and weren't allowed to even peruse the next step.

i don't disagree with that. but that's not the nfl that's not giving them a fair shake. they're not being given the opportunity to develop into nfl prospects. on the other side of the coin, you've got white kids who were born and bred to to be nfl QBs, some even having fathers who played in the league (luck, manning x2, most notably). additionally, urban high schools often don't have well-funded football programs and urban neighborhoods sometimes have space issues for kids who might prefer football or baseball to, say, basketball. there are latent structural issues

No one told tebow to go play h-back till after it was clear he couldn't play, and he also brought his whole fake catholic drama to the table.

i'm not going to suggest that tebow should have gotten more opportunity, but he WAS one of the best college QBs ever. and won games in the nfl when he got the chance

and i'm not religious, but tebow's conviction ain't fake. he walks it like he talks it. a spectacular human being

Yet Bill Polian who is an icon in the NFL, told Lamar Jackson that he wasn't a QB, and even admited he was wrong as he was using "the old standard" I'm not saying he was being deliberately racist, I'm not say its some conspiracy to keep blacks out of the QB position but theirs a lot of dogma that gets passed around in coaching circles, from HS-Pros that leads to a biased against blacks that do happen to play QB.

there's certainly still a school of thought that athleticism at the QB position is not something to be valued highly as compared to the traditional measurables like arm strength, height, intelligence. partly because athleticism is unnecessary to succeed at an elite level (manning, brady). and indeed can be a negative if relied on a lot (see RGIII). i'm not sure that's a race thing, though. there's a reason why michael vick and RGIII were taken at the top of the draft while jackson wasn't
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1744 » by transplant » Fri May 8, 2020 7:31 pm

dice wrote:-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

I probably don't want to get into the middle of this, but things are kinda slow and I find myself willing to be foolish.

This kind of strikes me as a semantics thing. If white QBs are being given MORE than a fair shake and non-white QBs are not being given MORE than a fair shake, then non-white QBs must be being given less than the shake white QBs are being given and therefore there's a color-based bias in play.

This said, I don't think that there's a serious problem here. There certainly was back in the days of Doug Williams and Warren Moon, but EJ Manuel has no legitimate bitch. The clear trend in the NFL is towards merit over color and whatever slight bias that may still exist is on the road to oblivion.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1745 » by dice » Sat May 9, 2020 12:14 am

transplant wrote:
dice wrote:-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

I probably don't want to get into the middle of this, but things are kinda slow and I find myself willing to be foolish.

This kind of strikes me as a semantics thing. If white QBs are being given MORE than a fair shake and non-white QBs are not being given MORE than a fair shake, then non-white QBs must be being given less than the shake white QBs are being given and therefore there's a color-based bias in play.

there's certainly a bias. but it's one of one group of people getting some opportunities that perhaps they didn't QUITE earn, whereas the other group is getting what they earn and nothing more. those actually being hurt are those at other positions, e.g. the elite safeties (who happen to be predominantly black) who fall a bit further when a middling white QB goes in the first round. it doesn't seem to be the elite black QB prospect that is being impacted

This said, I don't think that there's a serious problem here. There certainly was back in the days of Doug Williams and Warren Moon, but EJ Manuel has no legitimate bitch. The clear trend in the NFL is towards merit over color and whatever slight bias that may still exist is on the road to oblivion.

agreed. and my rudimentary analysis of 10 white first round QBs this century who have paid off their team's investment vs 17 who haven't might be random variation to some degree. if you flip a coin 27 times, 12.4% of the time it will come up tails at LEAST 17 times
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1746 » by nomorezorro » Sat May 9, 2020 12:35 am

did someone say systemic bias in favor of white qb prospects

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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1747 » by nomorezorro » Sat May 9, 2020 12:37 am

beyond the racial component that is a huge piece of evidence in the "ryan pace incorrectly thinks he's the smartest person in the world" pile

falling in love with a QB who turned out to suck to the point that you don't even bother talking to another highly rated prospect at the same position is legitimately a fireable offense when it turns out the guy you ignored is actually good
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1748 » by dice » Sat May 9, 2020 2:18 am

nomorezorro wrote:beyond the racial component that is a huge piece of evidence in the "ryan pace incorrectly thinks he's the smartest person in the world" pile

falling in love with a QB who turned out to suck to the point that you don't even bother talking to another highly rated prospect at the same position is legitimately a fireable offense when it turns out the guy you ignored is actually good

big board rankings of trubisky heading into draft:

7 nfl.com ("big arm, ability to throw w/ accuracy from pocket or on move, full-field reader, will have to become much more pocket aware and recognize blitzes, hasn't put all the pieces together, but the puzzle is all right in front of him, projects as good w/ high floor and potential to be great") - watson #18 ("inconsistent field vision and decision-making, transition to pro-style will take time"), mahomes not in first round

14 bleacher report, watson #22, mahomes #37, kizer #41
15 sb nation, watson #14, kizer #33, mahomes #36

63 sporting news, mahomes #12 (best in a class that lacks a true #1 worthy prospect, more reckless version of cutler, upside of favre/stafford), watson #22 ("arm and system adjustment might be concerns"), kizer #37

1st round usa today, along w/ watson, who was listed first. kizer and mahomes 2nd round

16 fox sports ("clean footwork, can make every throw, able to make plays on run, poor man's andrew luck"), watson #20 ("leader of men, not enough credit for arm"), kizer #25, mahomes #100 ("great throws on the run, but air raid won't translate well and footwork will need to be entirely rebuilt")

consensus of 40 big boards: watson 22, trubisky 23, mahomes 30, kizer 40

also, https://walterfootball.com/draft2017QB.php
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1749 » by nomorezorro » Sat May 9, 2020 3:18 am

i think all that illustrates that whiffing on a pick alone isn't necessarily an unforgivable mistake, even though it looks really really bad when one guy you passed on already looks like the potential GOAT and the other one is a good starting qb

but valuing him so much more highly than two prospects ranked in the same ballpark, to the point that you barely do your due diligence on other players, employ some cloak-and-dagger b.s. to hide your interest rather than actually working him out in person, trading up from 3 to 2 just to ensure you have THIS GUY and don't get stuck with someone else...it's brutal

fwiw, it looks like the bears might have actually talked to watson although "they talked to me on the phone" & him not recalling that three years later doesn't really indicate they did anything more than the bare minimum

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(another guy in the comments also points out watson mentioning the bears could have just been to create the impression of interest as a draft stock strategy. either way, i'm still comfortable reading the situation as "pace fell in love with mitch for no good reason and that kept the team from properly evaluating its options")
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1750 » by dice » Sat May 9, 2020 3:53 am

nomorezorro wrote:i think all that illustrates that whiffing on a pick alone isn't necessarily an unforgivable mistake, even though it looks really really bad when one guy you passed on already looks like the potential GOAT and the other one is a good starting qb

but valuing him so much more highly than two prospects ranked in the same ballpark, to the point that you barely do your due diligence on other players, employ some cloak-and-dagger b.s. to hide your interest rather than actually working him out in person, trading up from 3 to 2 just to ensure you have THIS GUY and don't get stuck with someone else...it's brutal

fwiw, it looks like the bears might have actually talked to watson although "they talked to me on the phone" & him not recalling that three years later doesn't really indicate they did anything more than the bare minimum

Read on Twitter


(another guy in the comments also points out watson mentioning the bears could have just been to create the impression of interest as a draft stock strategy. either way, i'm still comfortable reading the situation as "pace fell in love with mitch for no good reason and that kept the team from properly evaluating its options")

i don't really have a problem with them not bringing in watson for extensive conversations. if they looked at all the video and numbers on trubisky and had him evaluated higher (which they clearly did), and were satisfied with him in person, they might well have thought that there was nothing watson could do at that point to leapfrog

i've read that there's only a 4% correlation between interview performance and job performance, yet employers often make the mistake of hiring the candidate who interviews the best
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1751 » by CjayC » Sat May 9, 2020 1:25 pm

Watson must be bored like everyone else. 3 years ago he said the Bears spoke to him

1:40



https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/09/deshaun-watson-said-before-the-2017-draft-that-he-talked-to-the-bears/
“The Chicago Tribune also reported that the Bears talked to Watson both at the Scouting Combine and at his pro day. ESPN reported in 2017 that the Bears sent a large contingent that included General Manager Ryan Pace and then-coach John Fox to Clemson’s pro day to watch Watson. The Bears were one of only four teams to send both their head coach and GM to Clemson’s pro day.
Perhaps Watson has just forgotten it three years later, but the historical record indicates that the Bears did, in fact, talk to Watson before the 2017 NFL draft.
The Bears undeniably whiffed when they traded up from No. 3 to No. 2 in the 2017 draft to select Mitchell Trubisky, when they could have stayed where they were or even traded down and selected Watson or Patrick Mahomes. But while the Bears came up with the wrong answer, they did their homework.”



More plausible than they passed on him because of racism I believe it was his ACL injuries that pushed him down their board. Drafting out of fear because of Kevin White.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1752 » by Red Larrivee » Sat May 9, 2020 4:40 pm

Watson is wrong, but it's a fact that the Bears did not scout him and Trubisky equally. Pace chose to do that, just as he chose to keep his desire to choose a QB a secret:

From the get-go, Ryan Pace believed it was imperative to keep the Bears’ fixation on quarterbacks a secret. He went incognito to see Mitch Trubisky in his final college game, sitting alone in the stands at the Sun Bowl in El Paso, Texas, with his hat pulled low.
Later in the pre-draft process, the Bears chose not to host Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes or Deshaun Watson at Halas Hall.
Instead, over a four-day span in mid-March, the Bears embarked on a three-city, three-quarterback scouting trip. Pace, Josh Lucas, coach John Fox, offensive coordinator Dowell Loggains and quarterbacks coach Dave Ragone began in Clemson, S.C., at Watson’s pro day. From there they visited Trubisky in Chapel Hill and Mahomes in Lubbock, Texas. They hosted dinners and private on-campus workouts with Trubisky and Mahomes but not with Watson.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1753 » by dice » Wed May 13, 2020 2:52 am

the nfl's COVID plan B is postponing the first 4 scheduled weeks of the season until after the end of the scheduled regular season, pushing back the playoffs. if they did that, opening night would be thursday, october 8th:

bucs at bears

probably wouldn't be many fans in the stands, but still pretty cool
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1754 » by chitownsalesmen » Wed May 20, 2020 9:52 pm

dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:i don't. and i told you the same thing when you tried this junk after my last post (see my first response to your straightforward question above). get your fingers out of your ears

and you have no notes to compare. you have emotions. i am the one who did a little research, which happens to refute your position

-black QBs have more or less been getting a fair shake for a long, long time. the fact that you had to introduce warren moon (the first great black QB in league history, and due to that perhaps thus the last to have had to overcome substantial discrimination) into the conversation is evidence of that. they are getting opportunities that they deserve. because they are on average performing appropriately relative to their draft position. warren moon blew open doors that had been ajar. randall cunningham walked right through those doors (first pro bowl the same year as moon's first) and was a precursor to michael vick and lamar jackson stylistically. that was in the '80s. doug williams was a first round pick in the '70s and frankly didn't live up to that promise

-white QBs are getting MORE than a fair shake. they are getting MORE opportunities than they deserve. because more of them are failing relative to their draft position

if there's any lesson here, it's not that GMs should be drafting a black QB INSTEAD of a white QB. it's that they should more often be drafting other POSITIONS high in the draft instead of the white QB



Look bro your a smart guy I respect you. but you are dead wrong about all of this. I never said s**t was still as bad as it was in the 1980's I'm saying the position is still tainted for black QB's. Their labeled "option QB's" their told to switch positions etc.

black QBs tend to be more athletic, right? as such, when they fail at QB they are sometimes asked to try a different position. whereas the un-athletic white QB who fails is just kicked to the curb

Look I'm not going to waste no more time on this topic with you. Listen to what Warren Moon, Deshaun Martin, and EJ Manuel had to say on the topic from late 2019.

if EJ manuel had the ability to play QB in the nfl i find it hard to believe that he would not be doing so. he was drafted in the first round as a QB with the knowledge that he would be a project. no mention of the possibility of being switched to another position in his scouting reports. it turned out that he wasn't a good pocket passer. so he didn't get blitzed much and teams sat back in coverage and made him throw the ball from the pocket. he simply couldn't make accurate downfield throws. and that can't be taught

I'm not going to lie and say I don't have emotion involved but I think you don't have enough first hand knowledge to be saying that I'm over stating what I'm saying becase I'm just telling you what I've seen and how I've seen talented young brothers who could throw a football go through personally. I know so many cats that was elite QB's in HS and weren't allowed to even peruse the next step.

i don't disagree with that. but that's not the nfl that's not giving them a fair shake. they're not being given the opportunity to develop into nfl prospects. on the other side of the coin, you've got white kids who were born and bred to to be nfl QBs, some even having fathers who played in the league (luck, manning x2, most notably). additionally, urban high schools often don't have well-funded football programs and urban neighborhoods sometimes have space issues for kids who might prefer football or baseball to, say, basketball. there are latent structural issues

No one told tebow to go play h-back till after it was clear he couldn't play, and he also brought his whole fake catholic drama to the table.

i'm not going to suggest that tebow should have gotten more opportunity, but he WAS one of the best college QBs ever. and won games in the nfl when he got the chance

and i'm not religious, but tebow's conviction ain't fake. he walks it like he talks it. a spectacular human being

Yet Bill Polian who is an icon in the NFL, told Lamar Jackson that he wasn't a QB, and even admited he was wrong as he was using "the old standard" I'm not saying he was being deliberately racist, I'm not say its some conspiracy to keep blacks out of the QB position but theirs a lot of dogma that gets passed around in coaching circles, from HS-Pros that leads to a biased against blacks that do happen to play QB.

there's certainly still a school of thought that athleticism at the QB position is not something to be valued highly as compared to the traditional measurables like arm strength, height, intelligence. partly because athleticism is unnecessary to succeed at an elite level (manning, brady). and indeed can be a negative if relied on a lot (see RGIII). i'm not sure that's a race thing, though. there's a reason why michael vick and RGIII were taken at the top of the draft while jackson wasn't


You sound like you have an agenda to push you discredit what dudes who played in the nfl have to say because they weren't great players but simultaneously dont touch what a HoF said.

I get it you don't want to admit that the system is still rigged against black QB's much like the system is still rigged against blacks period, again not just football players.

When a black QB comes up, not even in college but in prep and below its still very racially charged, 100% their is still a sentiment surrounding a black QB, they are propositioned with playing receiver, or DB etc or other postions where they can apply their athleticism.

a lot of times is a white coach with an also white son, who he's prepping to play QB, but he knows Tyrell will beat him if its a true competition. You are telling me to wholesale ignore almost every instance of seeing young black QB's that I've seen. Again its not always that the coaches son is some would be QB, some times it just so happens the (white)coach went to St. Rita with the father/uncle/brother-law etc of another kid who again happens to be white, I've seen this scenario happen multiple multiple times, and to be clear I'm not saying its all race based, but again a lot of it is.

Lets be real frank, why exactly was Trubisky the top qb prospect? his one season at NC? Really? I never saw what was so great about him from day one, yeah he had potential and some decent athleticism, but in 2017 before they ever stepped foot on an nfl field it was very, very clear to me that Watson was a better prospect. The man had come off of winning a national champ against the vaunted Alabama team, it just didn't make sense to have Trubisky ahead of Watson if you really think about it.

You are telling me what I've saw is not indicative of the actual situation, no sir you are the one with your finger not on the pulse of this situation, i'd recommend looking into this deeper then just from what you see on tv/youtube or what some (also white) journalist writes about.

your showing how little you understand about how prep and below athletics work and how these guys get into the major programs and how many potential great black QBs end up playing other positions or skipping football for basketball etc.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1755 » by dice » Thu May 21, 2020 3:34 am

chitownsalesmen wrote:
dice wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:

Look bro your a smart guy I respect you. but you are dead wrong about all of this. I never said s**t was still as bad as it was in the 1980's I'm saying the position is still tainted for black QB's. Their labeled "option QB's" their told to switch positions etc.

black QBs tend to be more athletic, right? as such, when they fail at QB they are sometimes asked to try a different position. whereas the un-athletic white QB who fails is just kicked to the curb

Look I'm not going to waste no more time on this topic with you. Listen to what Warren Moon, Deshaun Martin, and EJ Manuel had to say on the topic from late 2019.

if EJ manuel had the ability to play QB in the nfl i find it hard to believe that he would not be doing so. he was drafted in the first round as a QB with the knowledge that he would be a project. no mention of the possibility of being switched to another position in his scouting reports. it turned out that he wasn't a good pocket passer. so he didn't get blitzed much and teams sat back in coverage and made him throw the ball from the pocket. he simply couldn't make accurate downfield throws. and that can't be taught

I'm not going to lie and say I don't have emotion involved but I think you don't have enough first hand knowledge to be saying that I'm over stating what I'm saying becase I'm just telling you what I've seen and how I've seen talented young brothers who could throw a football go through personally. I know so many cats that was elite QB's in HS and weren't allowed to even peruse the next step.

i don't disagree with that. but that's not the nfl that's not giving them a fair shake. they're not being given the opportunity to develop into nfl prospects. on the other side of the coin, you've got white kids who were born and bred to to be nfl QBs, some even having fathers who played in the league (luck, manning x2, most notably). additionally, urban high schools often don't have well-funded football programs and urban neighborhoods sometimes have space issues for kids who might prefer football or baseball to, say, basketball. there are latent structural issues

No one told tebow to go play h-back till after it was clear he couldn't play, and he also brought his whole fake catholic drama to the table.

i'm not going to suggest that tebow should have gotten more opportunity, but he WAS one of the best college QBs ever. and won games in the nfl when he got the chance

and i'm not religious, but tebow's conviction ain't fake. he walks it like he talks it. a spectacular human being

Yet Bill Polian who is an icon in the NFL, told Lamar Jackson that he wasn't a QB, and even admited he was wrong as he was using "the old standard" I'm not saying he was being deliberately racist, I'm not say its some conspiracy to keep blacks out of the QB position but theirs a lot of dogma that gets passed around in coaching circles, from HS-Pros that leads to a biased against blacks that do happen to play QB.

there's certainly still a school of thought that athleticism at the QB position is not something to be valued highly as compared to the traditional measurables like arm strength, height, intelligence. partly because athleticism is unnecessary to succeed at an elite level (manning, brady). and indeed can be a negative if relied on a lot (see RGIII). i'm not sure that's a race thing, though. there's a reason why michael vick and RGIII were taken at the top of the draft while jackson wasn't


You sound like you have an agenda to push you discredit what dudes who played in the nfl have to say because they weren't great players but simultaneously dont touch what a HoF said.

huh? i didn't judge either of their opinions based on how good they were as players. warren moon was clearly screwed over. that was 30 years ago. EJ manuel was not screwed over. he couldn't throw the ball downfield accurately

I get it you don't want to admit that the system is still rigged against black QB's much like the system is still rigged against blacks period, again not just football players.

that's like me saying "i get it - you hate white people" - completely baseless

first of all, the word "rigged" suggests a conspiracy, which clearly doesn't exist here

secondly, there are very obvious prejudices that still exist in society as a whole. there are NOT when it comes to the very narrow issue of black nfl QBs in the 21st century

When a black QB comes up, not even in college but in prep and below its still very racially charged, 100% their is still a sentiment surrounding a black QB, they are propositioned with playing receiver, or DB etc or other postions where they can apply their athleticism.

already acknowledged

a lot of times is a white coach with an also white son, who he's prepping to play QB, but he knows Tyrell will beat him if its a true competition. You are telling me to wholesale ignore almost every instance of seeing young black QB's that I've seen.

you're making **** up. i have told you to ignore nothing. and yet, you somehow managed to ignore what i've said in this conversation. in fact, I'M the one who brought up the structural inequities and prejudices at lower levels in football!

Lets be real frank, why exactly was Trubisky the top qb prospect? his one season at NC? Really? I never saw what was so great about him from day one, yeah he had potential and some decent athleticism, but in 2017 before they ever stepped foot on an nfl field it was very, very clear to me that Watson was a better prospect. The man had come off of winning a national champ against the vaunted Alabama team, it just didn't make sense to have Trubisky ahead of Watson if you really think about it.

combine performance is why trubisky was taken first (and was pretty much across the board considered a comparable prospect to watson)

winning national championships historically has very little correlation with nfl performance. hell, college performance as a whole doesn't have much correlation

manziel was a better college QB than watson. so was tebow. so was danny freaking wuerffel. their draft positions:

12 watson
22 manziel
25 tebow
99 wuerffel

you have not suggested that manziel, tebow or wuerffel were discriminated against in the nfl. why is that?

You are telling me what I've saw is not indicative of the actual situation, no sir you are the one with your finger not on the pulse of this situation, i'd recommend looking into this deeper then just from what you see on tv/youtube or what some (also white) journalist writes about.

I'M THE ONE WHO DID SOME FREAKING RESEARCH! i have not ONCE referenced a journalist or posted a damn youtube video. YOU are relying on cherry picked player quotes, so how 'bout YOU dig a little deeper

you left the conversation for weeks, clearly got worked up about something in your personal life that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, failed to even REVIEW this conversation to refresh your memory about what i have said, and came in guns blazing and pulling crap out of thin air

your showing how little you understand about how prep and below athletics work...

once again, i brought this up and acknowledged the dynamic, not you

i'll say it one last time: there is zero evidence of systemic bias against black nfl QBs in the 21st century. that does not mean that there aren't substantial issues at lower levels which prevent black boys from reaching their potential at the quarterback position. because such issues obviously do exist
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1756 » by dougthonus » Thu May 21, 2020 10:42 am

ESPN ranked the off-seasons of all 32 teams:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29180831/ranking-2020-nfl-offseasons-worst-first-barnwell-all-32-teams#CHI

31. Chicago Bears
What went right: Offensive tackle Germain Ifedi didn't live up to expectations as a first-round pick for Seattle, but the Bears were able to sign the oft-penalized lineman to a one-year deal for just over $1 million, which is good value for a solid run-blocker. They will try Ifedi at guard as a replacement for the retired Kyle Long. General manager Ryan Pace also took the first steps out of the Mitchell Trubisky business, declining the quarterback's fifth-year option while bringing in Nick Foles to compete for a starting job. While Robert Quinn's five-year, $70 million deal is expensive, it's for a player for whom ESPN's pass rush win rate analysis suggests was the most effective pass-rusher in the league over the past two seasons. I also liked the flier Chicago took on former Steelers first-round corner Artie Burns.

What went wrong: Despite the fact that Foles' contract was a disaster for the Jaguars, the Bears sent a fourth-round pick to acquire him and didn't force the Jags to eat any of the money, instead restructuring $21 million in guarantees to come due over the next three seasons. Foles could work out as the team's starter, but this is the equivalent of signing an expensive three-year gym membership as a college senior. There couldn't have been much of a market for Foles, and Andy Dalton, who was cut by the Bengals after the draft, came without the pick or significant cash attached.

The Jimmy Graham deal was likely the worst contract of free agency, as a Bears team that had already committed significant assets to tight ends Dion Sims, Adam Shaheen and Trey Burton under Pace gave Graham a two-year, $16 million deal with $9 million guaranteed and a truly inexplicable no-trade clause. Graham can't block, and he was anonymous during his time with the Packers. Chicago needed three voidable years to re-sign linebacker Danny Trevathan on a three-year, $21.8 million deal, which is like taking out a loan so you can help pay for that gym membership. There are still questions about what this team has at wide receiver and in the secondary, where it will likely need second-rounder Jaylon Johnson to start as a rookie.


Hard to argue with anything here. Will hope the guys they got play better than expectations, because on paper, this off-season was awful.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1757 » by Jeffster81 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm

The off-season is not 2nd worst in the NFL, imo. I don't love it but these media outlets are overblowning it. Hades, Cleveland had a grand slam of an off-season before 2019 and look at how their season unfolded.

I would put the Bears off-season in the bottom third not second worst.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1758 » by dougthonus » Thu May 21, 2020 3:00 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:The off-season is not 2nd worst in the NFL, imo. I don't love it but these media outlets are overblowning it. Hades, Cleveland had a grand slam of an off-season before 2019 and look at how their season unfolded.

I would put the Bears off-season in the bottom third not second worst.


I can say their two biggest moves money wise were Graham and Foles (and they gave up a 4th for Foles) and those both look like horrible value.

What looks like good or bad value today may not look like that once the season starts, but on paper their off-season is really bad. I don't know that I'd argue too much about putting a ranking on it exactly one way or the other.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1759 » by Susan » Thu May 21, 2020 8:34 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:The off-season is not 2nd worst in the NFL, imo. I don't love it but these media outlets are overblowning it. Hades, Cleveland had a grand slam of an off-season before 2019 and look at how their season unfolded.

I would put the Bears off-season in the bottom third not second worst.


I can say their two biggest moves money wise were Graham and Foles (and they gave up a 4th for Foles) and those both look like horrible value.

What looks like good or bad value today may not look like that once the season starts, but on paper their off-season is really bad. I don't know that I'd argue too much about putting a ranking on it exactly one way or the other.


Robert Quinn was by far the biggest money deal.

Jimmy got $9M guaranteed on a two year $16M deal. Greg Olsen got $5.5M of a $7M deal for one year.
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Re: OT Bears 2019/20 season and beyond 

Post#1760 » by dougthonus » Thu May 21, 2020 9:05 pm

Susan wrote:Robert Quinn was by far the biggest money deal.

Jimmy got $9M guaranteed on a two year $16M deal. Greg Olsen got $5.5M of a $7M deal for one year.


My bad forgot about Quinn.

That Olsen deal is much better than the Graham deal. Less guaranteed, less years, better performance last year.

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