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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably)

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1501 » by MikeDC » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:39 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
MikeDC wrote:Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:

If your going by dont draft bc hes not a good shooter then your literally going to pick unathletic McD every yr which is why the Bulls sucked. What the Bulls need is someone that can play multi-position and versatile enough it gives teams trouble due to height (imagine a 6-8 Ball against PGs or 6-9 Deni against SFs), ball handling, etc. The Bulls have none of them except a 30mil dollar injury plagued Porter. Denis not going to tear it up from yr 1 but other prospects literally suck so hard he is a solid tier 2 prospect.
Obis the better talent but he will be gone by 7 and the fit is so bad they will implode.


1. It’s the particular kind of poor shooting that’s a problem. I’d have no problem taking Hayes or Ball, for example, because those guys are better ft shooters and their low 3% is in the context of a lot more shots.

2. The Bulls have little talent and little offensive talent. They need to be drafting for talent instead of fit. I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that he can effectively play the 3 anyway.

3. So where does Deni rank in terms of talent? To me, there’s a top tier of guys you obviously take in Ball and Hayes. There’s a second tier of Wiseman, Edwards and Aleksej Pokusevski (obviously wouldn’t draft at 3-5 but you could trade down or acquire another pick for him) that are less sure but have flashed some really elite level tools. There’s a third tier of guys that are similar but with probably slightly less upside- RJ Hampton, Obi, Okongu, Vassell, Cole Anthony, Green, who have shown either more than role player kind of offense or high level defense with competent offense. These guys all also have pretty obvious NBA frames and athleticism.

Then there’s guys like Haliburton (small frame, terrible usage in a bad team) and Deni (poor shooting overall, questionable athleticism) who I look at as having real questions about whether they work out as core NBA players. I mean, everyone has questions but these guys have more questions that seem like serious ones.

——

Like, to make this concrete, I’m looking at Denis vs say, Josh Green. Green is 210lbs and has a 6’10” wingspan and looks generally quicker. So in the NBA, they can both play the 3.

Defensively Green is the more productive player.

Offensively he has a very well rounded game. Unlike Deni he’s a good shooter, but he looks like a guy who will be fast and athletic enough to take guys off the dribble and get to the line.

So, I look at these two guys, and I see a lot of reasons to think Green will be the better NBA player.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1502 » by Little Nathan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:46 pm

MikeDC wrote:Like, to make this concrete, I’m looking at Denis vs say, Josh Green. Green is 210lbs and has a 6’10” wingspan and looks generally quicker. So in the NBA, they can both play the 3.

Defensively Green is the more productive player.

Offensively he has a very well rounded game. Unlike Deni he’s a good shooter, but he looks like a guy who will be fast and athletic enough to take guys off the dribble and get to the line.

So, I look at these two guys, and I see a lot of reasons to think Green will be the better NBA player.


Disagree with pretty much everything here. There's absolutely nothing that indicates that Green is more productive defensively IMO. And calling Green more well-rounded offensively is just absurd to me. We'll see, I guess.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1503 » by Chi town » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:08 pm

Forgetting Okoro. He’s got Jimmy Buckets like game and the tenacity, D, and that winning player intangibles.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1504 » by Chi town » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:10 pm

My guys are Hayes Deni and Okoro.

I can see all of them gone by 7
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1505 » by Dresden » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:01 pm

Chi town wrote:My guys are Hayes Deni and Okoro.

I can see all of them gone by 7


Hayes would be interesting. I haven't seen much of him, but tall pg's are great if they work out.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1506 » by MikeDC » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:51 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
MikeDC wrote:Like, to make this concrete, I’m looking at Denis vs say, Josh Green. Green is 210lbs and has a 6’10” wingspan and looks generally quicker. So in the NBA, they can both play the 3.

Defensively Green is the more productive player.

Offensively he has a very well rounded game. Unlike Deni he’s a good shooter, but he looks like a guy who will be fast and athletic enough to take guys off the dribble and get to the line.

So, I look at these two guys, and I see a lot of reasons to think Green will be the better NBA player.


Disagree with pretty much everything here. There's absolutely nothing that indicates that Green is more productive defensively IMO. And calling Green more well-rounded offensively is just absurd to me. We'll see, I guess.


Yep. My basis for saying Green is more productive defensively is as follows:
I think of two basic measures of defense. One is efficiency. The ratio of good plays (steals and blocks) to bad ones (fouls). Green has more good plays to bad ones The second is overall volume, which also includes defensive rebounds (I actually do the sqrt of defensive rebounds and fouls, because while these can be positive defensive plays, they're also less about pure ability and more about position and role). For volume, they're about equal or you could put Deni ahead if you focus on rebounds and fouls, but Green has a much higher steal rate while Deni blocks shots, rebounds, and picks up fouls at a much higher rate.

But that last part also tells me a bunch about their roles. The low steals but higher number of blocks and rebounds, and the proclivity to foul a lot, are more evidence that Deni is much more of a 4 than a 3.

Look, I'm not saying I hate the guy. It's nothing personal. I'm just saying that, when I look hard at the numbers, what I see is
1. The shooting isn't there
2. The athletic and defensive profile strongly points to him being 4 and not 3. Which is fine, but it sort of underscores that he's not a super athletic sort of player and that suggests to me that he's not likely as high potential and he's hyped to be.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1507 » by Red Larrivee » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:02 am

1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1508 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:03 am

I hope all this Deni hype is heard by other teams and he’ll be gone by 7. B.U.S.T.

Showing highlights from the Israeli basketball league and then calling him Luka lite is like watching a 6-6 shooting guard at Loyola and comparing him to MJ.

Let’s not forget the complete duds that league has sent the NBA, Capsi and Bender. Tough to get excited about a ball handler and ‘shooter’ that is shooting 56% from the free throw line.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1509 » by Jcool0 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:29 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I hope all this Deni hype is heard by other teams and he’ll be gone by 7. B.U.S.T.

Showing highlights from the Israeli basketball league and then calling him Luka lite is like watching a 6-6 shooting guard at Loyola and comparing him to MJ.

Let’s not forget the complete duds that league has sent the NBA, Capsi and Bender. Tough to get excited about a ball handler and ‘shooter’ that is shooting 56% from the free throw line.


FWIW he is 9 for 10 from the line in his last two games.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1510 » by GimmeDat » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:53 am

Red Larrivee wrote:1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.


Pretty sure Lewis Jr. returned to school, right? I like his potential but I think he needs that extra year or two.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1511 » by Jeffster81 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:29 am

GimmeDat wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.


Pretty sure Lewis Jr. returned to school, right? I like his potential but I think he needs that extra year or two.


Pretty sure Lewis signed with an agent.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1512 » by Little Nathan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:47 am

MikeDC wrote:Look, I'm not saying I hate the guy. It's nothing personal. I'm just saying that, when I look hard at the numbers, what I see is
1. The shooting isn't there
2. The athletic and defensive profile strongly points to him being 4 and not 3. Which is fine, but it sort of underscores that he's not a super athletic sort of player and that suggests to me that he's not likely as high potential and he's hyped to be.


I see your points. I disagree with you here and there, but it's fair to doubt Avdija of course. He's not even the guy I want for the Bulls, but I still believe he can have a really good NBA career.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1513 » by GimmeDat » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:33 am

Jeffster81 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.


Pretty sure Lewis Jr. returned to school, right? I like his potential but I think he needs that extra year or two.


Pretty sure Lewis signed with an agent.


Sorry I had a blank, thought you meant Scottie Lewis Red!
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1514 » by JohnnyTapwater » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:23 pm

Just my gut opinion so far.

Stars

1. LaMelo Ball PG
2. James Wiseman C
3. Deni Avdija SF
4. RJ Hampton PG
5. Kira Lewis Jr. PG


Sleepers

1. Jalen Smith PF
2. Jahmius Ramsey SG
3. Grant Riller SG
4. Mason Jones SG
5. Josh Green SG
6. Tevin Brown SG
7. Nate Hinton SG
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1515 » by CoreyVillains » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:26 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.


Lewis Jr is not too high imo, he’s been very very underrated by the mocks. He’s gonna shoot up big time if there are any workouts
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1516 » by StunnerKO » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:54 pm

https://youtu.be/leSY5fVq0NA


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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1517 » by Jeffster81 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:26 pm

GimmeDat wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
Pretty sure Lewis Jr. returned to school, right? I like his potential but I think he needs that extra year or two.


Pretty sure Lewis signed with an agent.


Sorry I had a blank, thought you meant Scottie Lewis Red!


Just so we are on the same page, were you talking Scottie or Kira? Because I know Kira has hired an agent.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1518 » by Showtime23 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:04 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:1 - Ball. Obvious red flags, but don't see another player with his size, court vision, and lead guard potential.
2 - Edwards. Athletic, dog, makes difficult shots, plays hard. Foundation is interesting enough.
---
3 - Avdija. Size, PNR upside, court vision, solid athlete. Not sure how high his upside is without a shot off the bounce or pullup.
4 - Lewis Jr. May be a little high, but good speed, ball skills are promising, perimeter shot, PNR play.
---
5 - Vassell. Haven't seen much discussion about him. 6'7, +perimeter shot, +athleticism, seems active defensively.
6 - Okoro.
7 - Maxey. Kind of redundant with White here.




Vassell is good but no way the Bulls draft him with number 7, esp with Hayes, Hali around.
I really like him tho and want him cheap so one proposal I would make would be #7 for Gordon and Magic pick this yr.
With number 15, Vassell, can be drafted if he falls.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1519 » by aramada » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:16 pm

Assuming we draft at 7 or 8, my guy is Haliburton. He seems like a very good fit for this team alongside LaVine or/and White. A lot of the focus at the draft is on upside, and I think he's a bit underrated from that standpoint. He's still young and has shown great progress in virtually every facet of his game as a sophomore. He looks like he can be an above average shooter, playmaker, and team defender in this league. He has great size and length for the position. He doesn’t project as a big scorer, but I don’t know who is outside of maybe Edwards and Ball. And that’s where he could have a role in this team as a secondary playmaker as I believe that Zach will continue to get better as a scorer and playmaker (baby steps…). If we decide that Zach isn’t the guy and rebuild, then White also showed flashes of being a great scoring guard. Hali can be an upgrade over Sato and Dunn at the point in a year or two. I see a lot of talk about guys who have yet to develop an outside shot (Avdija, Okoro, Hayes, even Ball and Edwards to an extent). Hali needs his shot to translate, which is a big step above the other guys. He also projects as a good C&S threat. I like him all around.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1520 » by Little Nathan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:52 pm

My first tier is Ball, Hayes and Edwards in that order. Wouldn't love Edwards, but would still take him above the rest. After that it gets complicated for me. Could easily talk myself into 5 or 6 guys. I definitely don't want Wiseman, Toppin or Haliburton top 7, though.

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