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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably)

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1641 » by Andi Obst » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:19 pm

keobulls wrote:LaMelo's stats this season aren't that far from Haliburton's and when you add in the defense and vastly superior shooting from each level, I just have a hard time rating potential higher than all these other things.


I don't see the vastly superior shooting. You're comparing a guy who is taking (too) many unassisted off the dribble pull ups and a guy who hits his catch and shoot 3s at a good level but has a really tough time creating anything for himself. Hali's release is also far from perfect. Defensively, I think it's closer than you think (but again, I get why you would disagree).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1642 » by keobulls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:25 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
keobulls wrote:I do not understand the LaMelo hype AT ALL. I see:
Positives - Tall PG, handles, some good passing
Negatives - Can't shoot/finish at any level, some terrible passing, NO defense at all, poor situational awareness
And this is a top 3 pick???

1. "Some good passing" is almost an insult to his passing ability. He made countless passes which very few NBA players can make (certainly no one on the Bulls) and he's been doing this since he was like 15 or so. He's an insanely talented passer.

2. I get the shooting concerns, but I think it's mostly a matter of shot selection + some work on his form (kind of like with Lonzo, just with more upside off the dribble IMO). He's definitely not a non-shooter though.

3. Finishing and defense are real concerns I share with you, but I'm probably higher than most on his upside in both aspects because of his touch and size/length.


This. Anti lamelo fans are basically nitpicking like they did with Young who is already all NBA all star starter level.
Those weaknesses they have are all easily fixable in the NBA which is shooting, defense. But you cannot teach the hardware, bbiq, playmaking which Lamelo has it all.

Whats ya gonna do if your not going to pick Ball? Pick Edwards who is Lavine 2.0 and become the Knicks?
Theres simply no alternative to Ball in this draft I would trade 2021 unprotected if our pick fell to 10 to move up.

Easy, Lavar, I'm not anti-anybody, I just don't see it with this guy. You brought up his great finishing, I guess I just haven't seen much of that. I have seen some great circus shots and a lot of weak takes to the hoop. His 2pt% is around 45%, that's...okay. If he is some hidden gem that is stuck on a trash team half way around the world then I don't mind the Bulls taking a chance. But all I see is someone who has all this "potential" but has not shot well, accomplished anything, needs strength, doesn't seem to care about D, and doesn't have stats that stand out above someone like Haliburton. He seems to be riding this "He's the best Ball brother" hype that doesn't mean anything to me (or hopefully the Bulls).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1643 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:54 am

Man, the more tape I watch on these guys, the less enthused I get.
Toppin's defense, LaMello's scoring, Hayes' shooting, Wiseman's position/lack of data, Okongwu's rawness, all seem such red flags...
Even Edwards, who would be my top pick at the moment, just doesn't seem like IT, you know?!
I'm sure there'll be great players in this draft, I just feel like this would be a great opportunity (if it presented itself) to trade back. I'd feel just as well with two of Haliburton/Nesmith/Lewis/Carey/Hampton as with any single projected top3 pick.
As I said, Edwards is my #1 guy right now. At 7, Haliburton would be my desired pick, I guess.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1644 » by Andi Obst » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:04 am

Hali would be such a meh pick in the top 10 IMO. To me, he projects to be a nice glue guy with positional versatility, but I don't see lead ball handler/primary creator upside in him. If I'm the Warriors, trading back for a guy like this sounds like a plan (even though drafting BPA in the top 3 is probably still better asset management), but for the Bulls it just makes no sense.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1645 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:43 pm

Hali would work if we're somewhat planning on picking high next year at least.

Hali can be a part of some very high ceiling lineups. Yes, he would probably be the 4th option in those lineups, but there's still definite value in that.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1646 » by keobulls » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:57 pm

Who is the most likely to be the best wing in this draft? I've never seen so many tall PG's coming out in one draft before. I like Okoro and Deni for their mix of current abilities, potential, and work ethic. I think Wing Star is a must, but this just might not be the draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1647 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:57 pm

keobulls wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
keobulls wrote:I don't know a ton about LaMelo and didn't know much about Lonzo at the same age, so this is an honest question: What about LaMelo shows more talent than Lonzo? I have my doubts about intangibles on LaMelo, too, just based on the fact that he was literally dragged around the world by his dad to showcase himself. I have seen nothing to show he would make a team better even if he was more talented than his brother.


LaMelo has always been seen as the true superstar of the family. The most potential and the best shot to be great in the pros.
Lonzo was the one who got the most initial press and with him at UCLA he got to show off his play making skills and defense.

Imagine Brook Lopez vs Robin Lopez. LaMelo is Brook and Lonzo is Robin.

Lonzo had issues with his shot but he can be a triple double on a nightly basis and give you good or better defense.

LaMelo is going to need more refinement than Lonzo due to his natural abilities and tending to rely on them more + he didn't go to college and get coaching to force him into a more set pace and style.

I understand that people have viewed him as more talented, but I don't understand why. Even in you post you seem to admit that Lonzo is better without any real argument to why LaMelo is viewed as better at the same age. Is he bigger? Better passer? Better dribbler? He is surely not better at running a team or as successful in harsh environments than Lonzo. I am looking for the side by side comparison that people use to say "Yes, LaMelo is clearly better (or has more potential) than Lonzo".


There is no side by side comparison, they’re completely different players. That’s why I said it’s like Brook vs Robin Lopez. Brook was offense and high ceiling. Robin is defense and solid play.
LaMelo’s ceiling is higher. Lonzo and his Dad have even said that.

The advantage that Lonzo has is his defense and that was already sound and he had the year of college to reign him in a bit.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1648 » by othawhitemeat » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:57 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Hali would work if we're somewhat planning on picking high next year at least.

Hali can be a part of some very high ceiling lineups. Yes, he would probably be the 4th option in those lineups, but there's still definite value in that.


This is such a good point - I didn't think of it that way, but in thinking of it that way, it would be the perfect pick. He is not a high star type pick, but a chance to be a very good player to put us in even better chance of long-term success. Next year's draft is supposed to be better chance for star players. Haliburton's shot release is bad, but is a very good shooter. Also, needs to add weight and wonder about that. He is not going to break player's down, but is effective when needed. However, to me, this would be the perfect pick the way you frame it in the form of speeding up our other players strengths. I still think I would trade Zach if I could get a good return just to develop Coby and a chance to get Lauri going and this pick would magnify that.

Strengths:
1) seems to be a very good shooter despite awful looking shot on 2 years history (if can find a way to better hone a quicker form and keep consistency).
2) passer - to me, best passer in draft. I know LaMelo is up there but LaMelo is a higher star player, but Hali is the best passer in the draft and one of the better in recent drafts. Sets up Lauri and Coby for player development due to this and unselfishness.
3) height/length - can guard either shooting guard/point and allows flexibility for both Coby/Zach. Is a very good rebounder.
4) one of the safer picks in this drafts in a draft that does not have much star power.
5) IQ - is a coach on the floor. May be the highest bball IQ player in this draft. AK and his crew has been talking about player development - this guy picks up things quickly and would assist others in this.
6) Fluid athlete - He has good speed (not elite, but better than above average) and average speed with long wingspan.
7) With Coby/Zach, he allows for them to be a shot maker while not dominating ball. However, he can be primary if needed to, to set up others while getting the offense in flow.

Obviously, his lack of strength and form on shot is a concern, but he is such a great piece if we pick anywhere outside of top 3. He is a 15 ppg, 7 assists, and 6 rb type player while playing good d. It allows for the 2 way player that we are clamoring more for. He would allow for us to trade lesser iq players/one way players if we desire. However, he also may make others look better offensively, while not dominating the ball (which allows for Coby/Zach to flourish too).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1649 » by Jvaughn » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:58 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:Man, the more tape I watch on these guys, the less enthused I get.
Toppin's defense, LaMello's scoring, Hayes' shooting, Wiseman's position/lack of data, Okongwu's rawness, all seem such red flags...
Even Edwards, who would be my top pick at the moment, just doesn't seem like IT, you know?!
I'm sure there'll be great players in this draft, I just feel like this would be a great opportunity (if it presented itself) to trade back. I'd feel just as well with two of Haliburton/Nesmith/Lewis/Carey/Hampton as with any single projected top3 pick.
As I said, Edwards is my #1 guy right now. At 7, Haliburton would be my desired pick, I guess.


Yeah, definitely a lot of red flags in the top 10. This becomes one of those drafts where you really find out how good your scouting department is. Even in the trash 2013 NBA Draft, teams still came out with Giannis, Oladipo, Porter, McCollum, Adams, and Schroeder. You can still come away with some good talent, but it's going to take a combination of skill, and good luck. I still think we can come away with some building blocks, but I'm starting to lose faith that it will be a player at a position of need. Especially if we fall to that 8th spot.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1650 » by nitetrain8603 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:53 pm

I like LaMelo and it took me awhile to get there.

LaMelo's shooting is going to be more about shot selection than broken jumper. You have to understand since high school, LaVar controlled the basketball coaches and made everyone fall in line. The literal gameplan was give the ball to the Ball brothers and get ready for the rebound. They were taught to cherry pick as well which is why their defense was very far behind. Lonzo took pride in defense, but that didn't come from high school. More like backyard play against LaMelo who loved to talk.

I think under real NBA coaching, he could be a multiple time all-star.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1651 » by keobulls » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:54 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:I like LaMelo and it took me awhile to get there.

LaMelo's shooting is going to be more about shot selection than broken jumper. You have to understand since high school, LaVar controlled the basketball coaches and made everyone fall in line. The literal gameplan was give the ball to the Ball brothers and get ready for the rebound. They were taught to cherry pick as well which is why their defense was very far behind. Lonzo took pride in defense, but that didn't come from high school. More like backyard play against LaMelo who loved to talk.

I think under real NBA coaching, he could be a multiple time all-star.

It would be great to get a multiple time all-star, but I am very weary of guys that need "real NBA coaching" to get them somewhere. Obviously you need help developing, but when you are talking about breaking 10 years of bad habits just to start... I'd rather try and find someone who already has the work ethic and has had to earn something. Someone like Jimmy Butler that will max out their potential whether they are on the spurs or the knicks.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1652 » by CoreyVillains » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:09 pm

Devin Vassell is a ridiculously good team defender. I’m honestly kinda blown away by how good he is.

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1653 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:19 pm

CoreyVillains wrote:Devin Vassell is a ridiculously good team defender. I’m honestly kinda blown away by how good he is.

Read on Twitter


Damn I hadn't looked into Vasell yet, he's long af. Reminds me of a scrawny rookie Giannis (body frame wise)


He might be a sleeper. I think he's my new favorite for the bulls
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1654 » by Jvaughn » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:46 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:Devin Vassell is a ridiculously good team defender. I’m honestly kinda blown away by how good he is.

Read on Twitter


Damn I hadn't looked into Vasell yet, he's long af. Reminds me of a scrawny rookie Giannis (body frame wise)


He might be a sleeper. I think he's my new favorite for the bulls


If we fall outside of the top 7 and miss out on any of the top PGs, he's my pick. He'll come in immediately with a defined role and should be able to replace Porter as the starting SF when he's gone.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1655 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:53 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:Devin Vassell is a ridiculously good team defender. I’m honestly kinda blown away by how good he is.

Read on Twitter


Damn I hadn't looked into Vasell yet, he's long af. Reminds me of a scrawny rookie Giannis (body frame wise)


He might be a sleeper. I think he's my new favorite for the bulls


If we fall outside of the top 7 and miss out on any of the top PGs, he's my pick. He'll come in immediately with a defined role and should be able to replace Porter as the starting SF when he's gone.


Idk the top of this draft doesn't excited me. A lot of low fundemental IQ players. I like Deni and Hali but they have their question marks.

I get the next level vibe from vassell. He has the underdog story going for him to boot like Jimmy/kawhi/Giannis. All of them had the fire to continue to grind and prove their worth especially after getting underrated in college. From what I read about him, he has it too.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1656 » by Jcool0 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:07 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:I like LaMelo and it took me awhile to get there.

LaMelo's shooting is going to be more about shot selection than broken jumper. You have to understand since high school, LaVar controlled the basketball coaches and made everyone fall in line. The literal gameplan was give the ball to the Ball brothers and get ready for the rebound. They were taught to cherry pick as well which is why their defense was very far behind. Lonzo took pride in defense, but that didn't come from high school. More like backyard play against LaMelo who loved to talk.

I think under real NBA coaching, he could be a multiple time all-star.


I would be shocked if he made one all-star team in his career. I know some like to say the Ball names hurts him, I think if his last name were Johnson he wouldn't be a top 10 pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1657 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:22 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:I like LaMelo and it took me awhile to get there.

LaMelo's shooting is going to be more about shot selection than broken jumper. You have to understand since high school, LaVar controlled the basketball coaches and made everyone fall in line. The literal gameplan was give the ball to the Ball brothers and get ready for the rebound. They were taught to cherry pick as well which is why their defense was very far behind. Lonzo took pride in defense, but that didn't come from high school. More like backyard play against LaMelo who loved to talk.

I think under real NBA coaching, he could be a multiple time all-star.


I would be shocked if he made one all-star team in his career. I know some like to say the Ball names hurts him, I think if his last name were Johnson he wouldn't be a top 10 pick.


Well said. The ball name definitely gave him a boost coming in and his numbers are inflated by high usage. I liked lonzo the prospect a lot better (and I still think lonzo will be better than him)

There is so much more to basketball than throwing a fancy pass
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1658 » by MikeDC » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:13 am

PaKii94 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:I like LaMelo and it took me awhile to get there.

LaMelo's shooting is going to be more about shot selection than broken jumper. You have to understand since high school, LaVar controlled the basketball coaches and made everyone fall in line. The literal gameplan was give the ball to the Ball brothers and get ready for the rebound. They were taught to cherry pick as well which is why their defense was very far behind. Lonzo took pride in defense, but that didn't come from high school. More like backyard play against LaMelo who loved to talk.

I think under real NBA coaching, he could be a multiple time all-star.


I would be shocked if he made one all-star team in his career. I know some like to say the Ball names hurts him, I think if his last name were Johnson he wouldn't be a top 10 pick.


Well said. The ball name definitely gave him a boost coming in and his numbers are inflated by high usage. I liked lonzo the prospect a lot better (and I still think lonzo will be better than him)

There is so much more to basketball than throwing a fancy pass


So, I've actually done a fair amount of statistical research on this and I have to disagree with this. As Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own". Kevin Pelton demonstrated this in Basketball on Paper. There's a trade off to using more possessions. The more you use, the less efficient you get.

In my research, what I've found is that it's quite a bit more frequent that high-usage players turn out to be good pros than efficient but low usage players.

In concrete terms, a guy like Ball has simply successfully run a lot more possessions, and by virtue of his high usage, we can also infer he was getting a lot of attention from the defense. And while more possessions may inflate counting stats, they do noting about rate states, so having a high usage rate while having a stellar assist to turnover ratio is a strong indicator for Lamelo Ball. Lonzo Ball was actually in the opposite category. He totally cherry picked his opportunities, kept his usage low and his apparent efficiency high, and has been forgettable in the pros.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1659 » by Andi Obst » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:09 am

Jcool0 wrote:I know some like to say the Ball names hurts him, I think if his last name were Johnson he wouldn't be a top 10 pick.


His name certainly doesn't hurt him, but I'd like to know which 10 prospects you would take over LaMelo Ball in this draft. That's just ridiculous.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1660 » by Jcool0 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:00 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:I know some like to say the Ball names hurts him, I think if his last name were Johnson he wouldn't be a top 10 pick.


His name certainly doesn't hurt him, but I'd like to know which 10 prospects you would take over LaMelo Ball in this draft. That's just ridiculous.


How many guys who are good passers that cant shoot or defend, would you want as your lead PG? I mean Kris Dunn is a decent passer, a good defender and cant shoot and he probably isn't worth his 7 million qualifying offer.

Deni Avdija
Anthony Edwards
Onyeka Okongwu
Killian Hayes
James Wiseman
Tyrese Haliburton
Obi Toppin
RJ Hampton
Isaac Okoro
Devin Vassell

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