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mack2354 wrote:Fair enough points. In Doug's defense though he played PF in college so he probably spent a lot less time on the perimeter and more time in the paint compared to Kyle Korver.

Yes, this was an excuse people tried to bring up back then too. Since Doug was in the paint more, he won't get as many steals. He should get some more blocks though, right?

Kyle Korver had 23 blocks his senior year. Doug had 14. Total. After four years.

Leslie Forman wrote:

mack2354 wrote:Fair enough points. In Doug's defense though he played PF in college so he probably spent a lot less time on the perimeter and more time in the paint compared to Kyle Korver.

Yes, this was an excuse people tried to bring up back then too. Since Doug was in the paint more, he won't get as many steals. He should get some more blocks though, right?

Kyle Korver had 23 blocks his senior year. Doug had 14. Total. After four years.

Doug just isn't athletic enough for the NBA. It was enough for him to play PF on a 2nd tier team in college. He had the fundementals/IQ to make it work at high usage.

RJ Hampton's ball handling and athleticism makes him an interesting option for the Bulls. I could see him play a year as the fourth guard, and then takeover Sato's role in year two.

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:

MrFortune3 wrote:

kulaz3000 wrote:
But we are talking about evaluating a college prospect, and not an already NBA player who is a solid defender, but doesn't have the stats, which is fine. Point being, good defenders at the college level, tend to have high blocks and steals total, and even then, they come into the NBA as average to poor defenders. Which is why as a player with average dimensions, but a strong athlete, but still lacks the defensive stats, it can be worrisome.

If we just talking about defensive smarts, and being intelligent enough to learn team defense, even less athletic and mediocre defensive players can learn that over time. If that's the case, you don't want to be using a lottery pick for those types of prospects, or you shouldn't be.

He's a wing player, James Harden is tied for 6th in the NBA in steals and he's a **** defender. Harden is also tied with DeAndre Jordan, Al Horford, Pascal Siakim, Tristan Thompson among others for blocks.
Doesn't make him any better of a defender.
I care more about his ability to rotate, take charges, play with good basketball IQ and play to his strengths on the defensive side of the ball without taking crazy chances.

He played 1 season of college, everybody isn't going to be insane as a 1 and done. He turned himself into a lotto pick when before the season began he was around the 40th ranked player in his HS class.
We have no true idea of what he's capable of off of one singular season of college basketball.

Steals and blocks don't make you a good defender, but good NBA defenders typically generate defensive events. There are exceptions, but with the draft you're playing the probability game, and steals in particular are a relatively strong indicator of NBA success (not just on defense, but overall).

Are "deflections" tracked at the college level? Could that say something about activity/agility even if they didn't end up turning into steals in the end?

I am going to lose my **** if the Bulls pick 7 again. What is would that be like 4 years in a row?

Whats the lowest number they can get?

keobulls wrote:

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:

MrFortune3 wrote:
He's a wing player, James Harden is tied for 6th in the NBA in steals and he's a **** defender. Harden is also tied with DeAndre Jordan, Al Horford, Pascal Siakim, Tristan Thompson among others for blocks.
Doesn't make him any better of a defender.
I care more about his ability to rotate, take charges, play with good basketball IQ and play to his strengths on the defensive side of the ball without taking crazy chances.

He played 1 season of college, everybody isn't going to be insane as a 1 and done. He turned himself into a lotto pick when before the season began he was around the 40th ranked player in his HS class.
We have no true idea of what he's capable of off of one singular season of college basketball.

Steals and blocks don't make you a good defender, but good NBA defenders typically generate defensive events. There are exceptions, but with the draft you're playing the probability game, and steals in particular are a relatively strong indicator of NBA success (not just on defense, but overall).

Are "deflections" tracked at the college level? Could that say something about activity/agility even if they didn't end up turning into steals in the end?

Pretty sure Synergy tracks deflections. And I imagine that they have predictive value for the same reason steals do. Not sure if it's as much, less, or more, though, as I haven't seen it written up anywhere.

sco wrote:

wonderboy2 wrote:

MrSparkle wrote:
Like I said, only guy I think I'd want is Edwards. If you see ASG potential , costing Zach and WCJ is easily worth the deal. Otherwise, agreed I'm not interested in taking a hit-miss prospect.

We need to try to give away Non-factor guys like Sato. See if we can get any type of Value for him. He’s making 10 million dollars. We can get a vet min player to do what he does.

Normally, I get the notion of trying to free-up cap space to land a decent FA, but this season, unless Otto doesn't take his option, we aren't getting below the cap. Sato isn't gonna nab you a second round pick and I think he can be much better than he showed last season, with the right coach and a healthy squad.

Sato is a waste of roster space. He doesn’t do anything impactful. Atleast Dunn gives you good defense. Sato gives you nothing but bitch play. One of the scariest NBA players I have ever seen. I never seen opposing PGs full court press a starting pg like teams did Sato late last season. That’s the ultimate disrespect. It’s saying they don’t think he a threat to score and that they can murk up the bulls offense without consequences. Only pg I’ve seen get pressured like other guards like that is Gerian Grant when he was on the bulls.

wonderboy2 wrote:

sco wrote:

wonderboy2 wrote:We need to try to give away Non-factor guys like Sato. See if we can get any type of Value for him. He’s making 10 million dollars. We can get a vet min player to do what he does.

Normally, I get the notion of trying to free-up cap space to land a decent FA, but this season, unless Otto doesn't take his option, we aren't getting below the cap. Sato isn't gonna nab you a second round pick and I think he can be much better than he showed last season, with the right coach and a healthy squad.

Sato is a waste of roster space. He doesn’t do anything impactful. Atleast Dunn gives you good defense. Sato gives you nothing but bitch play. One of the scariest NBA players I have ever seen. I never seen opposing PGs full court press a starting pg like teams did Sato late last season. That’s the ultimate disrespect. It’s saying they don’t think he a threat to score and that they can murk up the bulls offense without consequences. Only pg I’ve seen get pressured like other guards like that is Gerian Grant when he was on the bulls.

Appreciate the commitment, but I think we got it now. You hate Sato and that's okay.

Little Nathan wrote:

wonderboy2 wrote:

sco wrote:Normally, I get the notion of trying to free-up cap space to land a decent FA, but this season, unless Otto doesn't take his option, we aren't getting below the cap. Sato isn't gonna nab you a second round pick and I think he can be much better than he showed last season, with the right coach and a healthy squad.

Sato is a waste of roster space. He doesn’t do anything impactful. Atleast Dunn gives you good defense. Sato gives you nothing but bitch play. One of the scariest NBA players I have ever seen. I never seen opposing PGs full court press a starting pg like teams did Sato late last season. That’s the ultimate disrespect. It’s saying they don’t think he a threat to score and that they can murk up the bulls offense without consequences. Only pg I’ve seen get pressured like other guards like that is Gerian Grant when he was on the bulls.

Appreciate the commitment, but I think we got it now. You hate Sato and that's okay.

I get it now. Peace.

Rose2Boozer wrote:RJ Hampton's ball handling and athleticism makes him an interesting option for the Bulls. I could see him play a year as the fourth guard, and then takeover Sato's role in year two.

Watch on YouTube

Star!!!... I'll be on that ledge alone.

Stars

1. LaMelo Ball PG
2. James Wiseman C
3. Deni Avdija SF
4 RJ Hampton CG
5. Kira Lewis Jr. PG

sco wrote:

Little Nathan wrote:

wonderboy2 wrote:Sato is a waste of roster space. He doesn’t do anything impactful. Atleast Dunn gives you good defense. Sato gives you nothing but bitch play. One of the scariest NBA players I have ever seen. I never seen opposing PGs full court press a starting pg like teams did Sato late last season. That’s the ultimate disrespect. It’s saying they don’t think he a threat to score and that they can murk up the bulls offense without consequences. Only pg I’ve seen get pressured like other guards like that is Gerian Grant when he was on the bulls.

Appreciate the commitment, but I think we got it now. You hate Sato and that's okay.

I get it now. Peace.

I’m not convinced. Not enough vitriol at all.

I don't see it with Hampton. I like some of the things he has shown and a guy with his speed and athleticism is certainly interesting to some extent, but I just don't see an elite skill and don't really know what his role is supposed to be at the next level.

PaKii94 wrote:

Leslie Forman wrote:

mack2354 wrote:Fair enough points. In Doug's defense though he played PF in college so he probably spent a lot less time on the perimeter and more time in the paint compared to Kyle Korver.

Yes, this was an excuse people tried to bring up back then too. Since Doug was in the paint more, he won't get as many steals. He should get some more blocks though, right?

Kyle Korver had 23 blocks his senior year. Doug had 14. Total. After four years.

Doug just isn't athletic enough for the NBA. It was enough for him to play PF on a 2nd tier team in college. He had the fundementals/IQ to make it work at high usage.

Doug was actually fine from a purely tape measure athleticism standpoint. He wasn't good or anything, but plenty good enough to be a productive NBA player. It's not like Kyle Korver is any quicker or more explosive. It was a lack of basketball IQ and motor that was his downfall - he was a passenger in the game. Korver is incredibly active and aggressive in terms of movement. Doug just kinda stood around on offense and had no awareness on defense (hence the atrocious steal and block numbers even at the college level).

It's something common with white guys who shoot 3s - people assume these guys all have high basketball IQ. We see it right now with Markkanen - people think he's got good fundamentals and plays smart basketball when he's really got very poor basketball IQ. He also had terrible steal+block numbers in college. A 7-footer with his athleticism should not be averaging .5 blocks a game at that level.

Leslie Forman wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Leslie Forman wrote:Yes, this was an excuse people tried to bring up back then too. Since Doug was in the paint more, he won't get as many steals. He should get some more blocks though, right?

Kyle Korver had 23 blocks his senior year. Doug had 14. Total. After four years.

Doug just isn't athletic enough for the NBA. It was enough for him to play PF on a 2nd tier team in college. He had the fundementals/IQ to make it work at high usage.

Doug was actually fine from a purely tape measure athleticism standpoint. He wasn't good or anything, but plenty good enough to be a productive NBA player. It's not like Kyle Korver is any quicker or more explosive. It was a lack of basketball IQ and motor that was his downfall - he was a passenger in the game. Korver is incredibly active and aggressive in terms of movement. Doug just kinda stood around on offense and had no awareness on defense (hence the atrocious steal and block numbers even at the college level).

It's something common with white guys who shoot 3s - people assume these guys all have high basketball IQ. We see it right now with Markkanen - people think he's got good fundamentals and plays smart basketball when he's really got very poor basketball IQ. He also had terrible steal+block numbers in college. A 7-footer with his athleticism should not be averaging .5 blocks a game at that level.

Well, there's definitely something about guys who work to get open (Kobe, Jordan, Korver, Redick, Reggie, Rip, Klay, Curry), and guys who don't seem to realize it's a BIGGER part of the offensive game than anything else unless you have Kyrie's handles (Melo, Niko, Doug, Crawford, Zach)? I'll even knock Bulls era Jimmy Butler for that. He didn't have a problem off-the-ball as a defender, but he didn't exactly do much on offense when he didn't have the ball.

I just don't get how guys at the pro level with gifted shooting ability ... aren't swayed to work on that skill? I realize it's partially instinct/awareness, but it's also pure fundamentals, effort and training, which are totally teachable. Are these guys' agents telling them not to work on it, in favor of lobbying for the ball and hopelessly creating on low efficiency on a losing team? Wouldn't it raise their salary stock by $5-10m? Lauri and Zach are two examples of guys who IMO are not good enough with the ball to have 25%+ usage.

MrSparkle wrote:I just don't get how guys at the pro level with gifted shooting ability ... aren't swayed to work on that skill? I realize it's partially instinct/awareness, but it's also pure fundamentals, effort and training, which are totally teachable.

They definitely work on it. They work on it a LOT. But there are so few guys in league history that have been as good as or better than guys like Korver/Redick in that role that I think it's clear a lot of it is untrainable.

Doug and Kyle both played for the same coach. But the difference was mindblowing in person. Korver looked like he drank a Gatorade bottle of cocaine. Doug looked like he was playing a game of golf. It's a matter of vision/awareness/aggression. Which, again, you could say shows up in steals/blocks at the lower levels. It ain't a coincidence that Reggie, Klay, Kyle, JJ, Rip, etc. all had such better steals numbers in college than Doug. Hell, to not pick on just Doug, look at Tony Snell. The guy was obviously physically talented. Yet he averaged far fewer steals than unathletic, gator armed Redick in college.

This is part of the reason why I think Matt Lloyd was such a bigger part of MyHusbandPax's drafting than everybody else here. I would wager that using steals to project perimeter players was a big part of his process and was obviously not for Paxson and Forman.

Little Nathan wrote:I don't see it with Hampton. I like some of the things he has shown and a guy with his speed and athleticism is certainly interesting to some extent, but I just don't see an elite skill and don't really know what his role is supposed to be at the next level.

He is a combo guard. You are hoping more for Jamal Murray then Dante Exum.

Leslie Forman wrote:

MrSparkle wrote:I just don't get how guys at the pro level with gifted shooting ability ... aren't swayed to work on that skill? I realize it's partially instinct/awareness, but it's also pure fundamentals, effort and training, which are totally teachable.

They definitely work on it. They work on it a LOT. But there are so few guys in league history that have been as good as or better than guys like Korver/Redick in that role that I think it's clear a lot of it is untrainable.

Doug and Kyle both played for the same coach. But the difference was mindblowing in person. Korver looked like he drank a Gatorade bottle of cocaine. Doug looked like he was playing a game of golf. It's a matter of vision/awareness/aggression. Which, again, you could say shows up in steals/blocks at the lower levels. It ain't a coincidence that Reggie, Klay, Kyle, JJ, Rip, etc. all had such better steals numbers in college than Doug. Hell, to not pick on just Doug, look at Tony Snell. The guy was obviously physically talented. Yet he averaged far fewer steals than unathletic, gator armed Redick in college.

This is part of the reason why I think Matt Lloyd was such a bigger part of MyHusbandPax's drafting than everybody else here. I would wager that using steals to project perimeter players was a big part of his process and was obviously not for Paxson and Forman.

I buy it. It's a low-volume stat along with blocks, but I see why it's an indicator of sorts.

Also think FTs drawn was Lloyd's weapon. Jimmy Butler averaged almost 6 FTAs per game at Marquette. Taj averaged over 5. Johnson over 4. Definitely a pattern there.

Round 2 option?

2018C3 wrote:In 2019 the nba forced every team to hire a behavior psychologists. When it comes to the draft, I see this as becoming a future benefit in helping to pick up the right guy in a draft.

Hopefully more study's will be done on certain characteristics that allow certain players to excel.

Some guys come into the league with all the tools to be great, but fizzle out, and others continue to improve.

More work needs to be done in this area that can help identify a mental mindset that might help determine a young prospects likely hood of success. Right now the analytic guys are running the show, but the behavior psychologists might start to have a larger role in helping to draft the right player going forward.

I find it odd that the nba "forced" teams to do this. What was their reasoning? To try to spot psychological red flags with players before they do something impulsive or illegal that will reflect poorly on the league?