Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

[Jcool0]

Any one notice most of the main critics of Zach are also the same ones convinced Markannen is still a star?

When was Lauri ever a star?

[dice]

For all the crap I give him about not playing defense and having tunnel vision, LaVine truly earned an All Star reserve spot. I'll be rooting for him.

if kyrie wasn't likely to get the bozo fan vote zach would have a better shot. depending on where the nets end up in the standings, there might not be a single selection from a losing team though. and there probably shouldn't be

[Tetlak]

Wow.

Somebody actually believes a sans-Zach "motion offense" with this crop of untalented offensive players would perform better than the team would with Zach.

That's insane. But it's not shocking as to who suggested it.

Also, people are now in denial about the fact that he has been playing defense and has been playing a smarter floor game overall, even though we can all see it very clearly and the numbers back it up.

Just give him legitimate credit for once. Not backhanded credit.

[WindyCityBorn]

Any one notice most of the main critics of Zach are also the same ones convinced Markannen is still a star?

When was Lauri ever a star?

I guess better phrasing is they think he would be a star if he wasn't being back by his teammates and coaching. Delusional either way.

[DorO]

Any one notice most of the main critics of Zach are also the same ones convinced Markannen is still a star?

When was Lauri ever a star?

I guess better phrasing is they think he would be a star if he wasn't being back by his teammates and coaching. Delusional either way.

Those people thinking Lauri will be different in some other team just don't have very good understanding of basketball. Lauri has regressed quite badly from earlier seasons and his softness is reducing him even further and lack of creating for others, lack of rebounding etc. just regression in every aspect and no wonder minutes have gone down.

Zach has all tools to be all star and offensive weapon in any team. He seems to be quite a headache to many teams and very difficult to take out and when good team has taken him out there's been absolutely no one who could step in with authority. He has taken a lot of bad shots which affect to his efficiency and stats and rather him to take those shots than anyone else.

[HomoSapien]

To me it's a little interesting that Bradley Beal has a much better reputation than Zach. I don't think the difference between the two of them is all that much.

[bulls_troy]

To me it's a little interesting that Bradley Beal has a much better reputation than Zach. I don't think the difference between the two of them is all that much.

Except that Zach is better...

[ZOMG]

Any one notice most of the main critics of Zach are also the same ones convinced Markannen is still a star?

Who's "convinced Markkanen is still a star"?

He's never been a star and I can't remember anyone here calling him that. He's just a promising 3rd year player with holes in his game.

People need to give him a break. Makes no sense being MAD at a 7th pick for not being a "star" at 22 years of age. Particularly one who's used like Lauri.

[ZOMG]

Wow.

Somebody actually believes a sans-Zach "motion offense" with this crop of untalented offensive players would perform better than the team would with Zach.

That's insane. But it's not shocking as to who suggested it.

Also, people are now in denial about the fact that he has been playing defense and has been playing a smarter floor game overall, even though we can all see it very clearly and the numbers back it up.

Just give him legitimate credit for once. Not backhanded credit.

This thread is full of senseless strawmen like this.

Nobody's saying this team would perform better if you just "took Zach out". Why play with scenarios that have no basis in reality? LaVine is the leading scorer and he's being paid 20 mil per year. Duh. Of course the rest of the team as it is now couldn't make up for his 25 points.

But it makes much more sense to think how this team would perform if you swapped Zach with another player. Someone like Malcolm Brogdon would be an immediate upgrade, and he's far from a superstar.

[DorO]

If Lauri swapped to Kevin Love (or to any decent PF) we'd be near play off.

[SHO'NUFF]

Wow.

Somebody actually believes a sans-Zach "motion offense" with this crop of untalented offensive players would perform better than the team would with Zach.

That's insane. But it's not shocking as to who suggested it.

Also, people are now in denial about the fact that he has been playing defense and has been playing a smarter floor game overall, even though we can all see it very clearly and the numbers back it up.

Just give him legitimate credit for once. Not backhanded credit.

This thread is full of senseless strawmen like this.

Nobody's saying this team would perform better if you just "took Zach out". Why play with scenarios that have no basis in reality? LaVine is the leading scorer and he's being paid 20 mil per year. Duh. Of course the rest of the team as it is now couldn't make up for his 25 points.

But it makes much more sense to think how this team would perform if you swapped Zach with another player. Someone like Malcolm Brogdon would be an immediate upgrade, and he's far from a superstar.

Did you say Malcolm Brogdon would be an immediate upgrade if swapped for Zach Lavine? Maybe I read that wrong?

We are 25th in ppg. Brogdon isn’t going to all of a sudden make us a better Scoring team. Is it his defense? Doubt it. Will he average 7.4 apg with our current roster minus Lavine? Doubt that too.

He’d be really nice next to Lavine though.

[FranchisePlayer]

Any one notice most of the main critics of Zach are also the same ones convinced Markannen is still a star?

When was Lauri ever a star?

When he participated the All-Star Weekend last year?

[JimmyJammer]

I can give the names of countless of nba players who previously made the all-star team while playing on a bad team, but I am going to focus my energy on Kemba Walker. Lavine's numbers compare favorably to Kemba's last season's numbers when he made the all-star team. Field goal percentage, free-throw percentage, assist percentage, steal percentage, rebound percentage, and they both have played on a bad team. Kemba was only averaging one point more than what Lavine is currently averaging. So it would not be against the norm for Zach to make the team, considering his numbers are solid, the event is in Chicago and he is a very entertaining player. Nothing will he given to him because he has earned it. The only fans who are rooting against this are those who want to be proven right in their previous assessment of Zach.

Hmmmmm, he scored a tad more on slightly lesser efficiency, fouled less, turned it over less while assisting a lot more.

Zach On: 107.5, Zach Off: 100.0 (+7.5 oRTG)
Zach On: 110.4, Zach Off: 101.1 (-9.3 dRTG)

Net: -1.8 RTG

Kemba last year:
Kemba On: 113.8, Kemba Off: 107.1 (+6.7 oRTG)
Kemba On: 113.4 Kemba Off: 112.9 (-0.5 dRTG)

Net: +6.2 RTG


Notice a difference?

All these advanced stats are bullcrap. I can give you a bunch scrubs in the NBA with net positive advanced stats. Net positive is not an individual stat, it's a collective stats that takes into consideration your teammates around you. David Nwaba is a net positive guy in the league, but he is still a scrub and a journeyman in the league. I want a guy who can put the ball in the basket, especially in today's NBA, and Zach is that guy. I would not be surprised to see Zach leading the league in scoring in his prime because he is that gifted and that good.

[drosereturn]

I actually think the closest comp for Zach is prime Melo, but with even less D.

Both viewed themselves as 'stars' and both could put up big scoring numbers. Melo, in NY especially, but even before that in Denver, was quite the selfish player who you knew was trying to get 'his' no matter what. As Melo's teams got progressively worse, the more selfish he became.

Your right except Lavine is a homeless version of Melo in a sg version.
Melo could afford to be selfish since he was one of the best scorers in NBA history and a natural superstar talent like A.I.
While Lavine has superior athleticism, his talent level is simply not comparable to Melo's and is not a guy you build around.

As much as I hate Butler, that guy was closest thing you could build around in recent history following Rose.
I still commend the Bulls for not offering him a supermax for a 35yr old injury prone player but none of the players traded for is even close to his overall impact. You could still make a case keeping Jimmy like the current Miami version at least.

[Onibuh]

btw. Zachs best games were with other Players stepping up and helping with scoring. Lavine looked better Overall when Lauri was hitting his shots or when White has his groove.
He's carrying the whole load and his advanced numbers will look worse, while pts go up.

[coldfish]

IMO, the Bulls have one quality piece. Zach.

Its hard to evaluate how he would play on a winner, surrounded by good players, with a good coach. That said, his skills, size and athleticism are undeniable. As others have noted, his flaw was largely his decision making on both sides of the court and that seems to be improving this year.

If I was GM, I would strongly be considering trading everyone else for a second core piece and then using the draft and free agency to fill out a roster. I think that Zach + star level player + quality vets + good coach could make some noise.

[Ice Man]

All these advanced stats are bullcrap.

You have nothing to learn from them, although every paid NBA analyst uses them? That's not a promising beginning for an argument. That sounds like what a scout in MoneyBall would say.

I can give you a bunch scrubs in the NBA with net positive advanced stats.

There are also scrubs who get lots of rebounds and points. Are those statistics also meaningless?

want a guy who can put the ball in the basket, especially in today's NBA, and Zach is that guy.

Andrew Wiggins puts the ball in the basket too, and Rudy Gobert does not. Does that make Rudy Gobert a worse player than Andrew Wiggins?

On a different note, whereas Zach has indeed been playing some fine ball, he remains in an uphill battle to make the ASG. To start, he's gotta beat out one of these guys -

Kemba
Kyrie
Beal
Butler
Middleton
Simmons

Then, he's gotta beat out Trae, Brogdon, and maybe Derrick for that open slot. Speaking of which, I wonder if SIlver would consider doing one of those commissioner's selections for Rose this year. That would be a very popular decision, I would think. Not just for the fans, but the players understand all the struggles that Rose has been through.

[Ice Man]

IMO, the Bulls have one quality piece. Zach.

Its hard to evaluate how he would play on a winner, surrounded by good players, with a good coach. That said, his skills, size and athleticism are undeniable. As others have noted, his flaw was largely his decision making on both sides of the court and that seems to be improving this year.

If I was GM, I would strongly be considering trading everyone else for a second core piece and then using the draft and free agency to fill out a roster. I think that Zach + star level player + quality vets + good coach could make some noise.

That sounds about right. All rebuilds start with "Hey cool we have all these players to look at!" and after the froth wears off, you realize that almost nobody really matters. Philly had a notably successful (and long) rebuild, and the end result was Joel and Ben. Nobody but Joel and Ben. The Knicks had a long rebuild and the end result was ... nothing. They thought Porzingis but he didn't turn out as planned. Orlando has had a long rebuild and the answer appears to be nothing. The Kings have had a LONG rebuild and I dunno, Fox? Bagley? We shall see.

So for the Bulls to decide Zach is the one, move everybody else, that would be pretty normal and logical.

[coldfish]

IMO, the Bulls have one quality piece. Zach.

Its hard to evaluate how he would play on a winner, surrounded by good players, with a good coach. That said, his skills, size and athleticism are undeniable. As others have noted, his flaw was largely his decision making on both sides of the court and that seems to be improving this year.

If I was GM, I would strongly be considering trading everyone else for a second core piece and then using the draft and free agency to fill out a roster. I think that Zach + star level player + quality vets + good coach could make some noise.

That sounds about right. All rebuilds start with "Hey cool we have all these players to look at!" and after the froth wears off, you realize that almost nobody really matters. Philly had a notably successful (and long) rebuild, and the end result was Joel and Ben. Nobody but Joel and Ben. The Knicks had a long rebuild and the end result was ... nothing. They thought Porzingis but he didn't turn out as planned. Orlando has had a long rebuild and the answer appears to be nothing. The Kings have had a LONG rebuild and I dunno, Fox? Bagley? We shall see.

So for the Bulls to decide Zach is the one, move everybody else, that would be pretty normal and logical.

That is what is tough for fans of rebuilding teams to wrap their heads around. You can get mediocre players virtually any time you want. A mediocre player in the NBA is pretty dam good at basketball and will have highlights and hot streaks. The only thing of real value is a *good* player. The only guy I can make a case for being that now or at some point in the future is Zach. Sure, Wendell, Lauri, Coby, etc. could play on title teams . . . as 5th or 6th men. You can get those guys when you want in the NBA.

IMO, young players lose value by the day. The Bulls should be looking to move these guys while they still have some theoretical potential. The sooner they trade people, the more they will get.

[Ice Man]

That is what is tough for fans of rebuilding teams to wrap their heads around. You can get mediocre players virtually any time you want. A mediocre player in the NBA is pretty dam good at basketball and will have highlights and hot streaks. The only thing of real value is a *good* player. The only guy I can make a case for being that now or at some point in the future is Zach. Sure, Wendell, Lauri, Coby, etc. could play on title teams . . . as 5th or 6th men. You can get those guys when you want in the NBA.

IMO, young players lose value by the day. The Bulls should be looking to move these guys while they still have some theoretical potential. The sooner they trade people, the more they will get.

Bingo. I learned this lesson bigtime while watching the Sixers. Hey, they got Covington! Hey, that Saric is long, he does some good things. Hey, that T.J. McConnell was a find. Hey, maybe Fultz will turn it around. Hey, that Noel can block some shots.

Don't care. Yeah all those guys can play some, they are all still in the league. But they don't matter at all, because as you write there are always players like that around. Get rid of one, then get another. All that matters from the team building perspective are the rare stars. Once you have them, then you can spend time and energy on the supporting cast, and can grow attached to guys who fit a need. Before that, though, they are mere commodities. Everybody on this team but Zach could be traded without a moment's regret.