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Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#61 » by Jcool0 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:40 am

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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#62 » by cool007 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:55 am

You put any other non-superstar on this team and we would still be sucking as much as we are right now. I see so many star players when they are not shooting or scoring well 1 of those nights, their team still wins. On this team, Lavine can score 30/35 on high efficiency but we still lose.

What does that tell you???
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#63 » by RagingBull316 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:09 am

Last year anyone would have told you that Draymond Green was a winner, take the talent around him and suddenly he doesn't look like a winner and is on a losing team.

Was LeBron a winner last year with no All Stars around him?

There's a bunch of different examples in the past of 1 player not being able to win on his own.

Lots of fans said Jimmy wasn't a winner but you put some talent around him and he looks alot better.

Zach like every other star player needs help.

Lavine can get better at a lot of things and is not a perfect player by any means but very few players are. He is the least of the problems this team has and one of the few they need to hang on to and get more talented players around him.



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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#64 » by Jcool0 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:51 am

RagingBull316 wrote:Last year anyone would have told you that Draymond Green was a winner, take the talent around him and suddenly he doesn't look like a winner and is on a losing team.

Was LeBron a winner last year with no All Stars around him?

There's a bunch of different examples in the past of 1 player not being able to win on his own.

Lots of fans said Jimmy wasn't a winner but you put some talent around him and he looks alot better.

Zach like every other star player needs help.

Lavine can get better at a lot of things and is not a perfect player by any means but very few players are. He is the least of the problems this team has and one of the few they need to hang on to and get more talented players around him.



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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#65 » by bearadonisdna » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:28 am

dice wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Zach has a positive Bpm on a losing team.
Winning player? Thats totally subjective.
He is doing his job, excelling at his role as a number 1 scorer.

He is literally on pace for a 2,000 point season.
Got to give big props to Zach. He is allstar deserving. Best player on the team by a wide margin.

actually not unreasonable given the dearth of star power in the east and his improved defense. but i'd have him on the outside looking in


Thanks for considering my perspective. He is among the top 5 in the East in Total points and Ppg.

While people will try to devalue scoring, its always more valuable than defense in a no defense league.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#66 » by oldshoolballer » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:05 am

Zach and Booker are almost the exact same as far as impact on a team. It reflects on wins and losses they put up great stats but doesn't move the needle in winning games.Then you see a guy like Morant who doesn't score nearly as much put has a tremendous impact on winning games.It may come down to basketball IQ in the end not just stats.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#67 » by dice » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:07 am

bearadonisdna wrote:
dice wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Zach has a positive Bpm on a losing team.
Winning player? Thats totally subjective.
He is doing his job, excelling at his role as a number 1 scorer.

He is literally on pace for a 2,000 point season.
Got to give big props to Zach. He is allstar deserving. Best player on the team by a wide margin.

actually not unreasonable given the dearth of star power in the east and his improved defense. but i'd have him on the outside looking in


Thanks for considering my perspective. He is among the top 5 in the East in Total points and Ppg.

While people will try to devalue scoring, its always more valuable than defense in a no defense league.

EFFICIENT scoring is certainly the most important thing to have in basketball, but lavine's efficiency is pretty average. and i don't have any reason to believe that the range of defensive impact across the league is any different than its been in the past
oldest/youngest (avg age) to win pazz and jop album of the year:

de la soul 19y-8m; sex pistols 21-4; e. costello 23-7; arrested devel 24-0; MJ 24-3; nirvana 24-7

bowie 69-0; dylan 65-3, 60-4, 56-4; lucinda williams 45-6; neil young/paul simon 44-10
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#68 » by bearadonisdna » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:41 am

dice wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
dice wrote:actually not unreasonable given the dearth of star power in the east and his improved defense. but i'd have him on the outside looking in


Thanks for considering my perspective. He is among the top 5 in the East in Total points and Ppg.

While people will try to devalue scoring, its always more valuable than defense in a no defense league.

EFFICIENT scoring is certainly the most important thing to have in basketball, but lavine's efficiency is pretty average. and i don't have any reason to believe that the range of defensive impact across the league is any different than its been in the past


Defense has it value league wide but it’s unsustainable by the even the most elite defenders.

The barometer here though is for an allstar selection. Defense is an inexact metric and if you have to look at some obscure metrics to validate it for an allstar birth its totally reaching.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#69 » by Ice Man » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:26 pm

To be honest, Zach remains a mystery. His rating with modern analytics is always much worse than his counting statistics, or even an eye test that notices that he's a high-mistake player. For example, his offensive rating on ESPN's real +/- table places him only about 30th in NBA guards. He's behind Patty MIlls, George Hill, and (gulp) Isaiah Thomas.

My initial reaction was well OK, it's hard to get high real +/- scores when playing on minus teams, but the second highest score for a guard, after Harden (they have Luka as a small forward), is Trae Young. And Derrick Rose's offensive score is well above Zach's, too.

So I don't know how to answer the "Is Zach a winner" question. He's a puzzling case. He looks like a winner to me the way he is playing this year, but his teams always lose and advanced analytics aren't supportive either.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#70 » by PaKii94 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:32 pm

Ice Man wrote:To be honest, Zach remains a mystery. His rating with modern analytics is always much worse than his counting statistics, or even an eye test that notices that he's a high-mistake player. For example, his offensive rating on ESPN's real +/- table places him only about 30th in NBA guards. He's behind Patty MIlls, George Hill, and (gulp) Isaiah Thomas.

My initial reaction was well OK, it's hard to get high real +/- scores when playing on minus teams, but the second highest score for a guard, after Harden (they have Luka as a small forward), is Trae Young. And Derrick Rose's offensive score is well above Zach's, too.

So I don't know how to answer the "Is Zach a winner" question. He's a puzzling case. He looks like a winner to me the way he is playing this year, but his teams always lose and advanced analytics aren't supportive either.


It's because Zach is deficient in everything else that is not scoring. He won't be the reason the team wins but he can be a very nice scoring bonus for team wins. His best position to succeed is to let him be a gunner with someone else taking the "leading" responsibilities. Unfortunately, we don't have a player like that and I don't see how the bulls can aquire one soon.

As far as true "winners" their numbers usually always come out on the top end even on trash teams. Case in point Jimmy Butler on our trash bulls
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#71 » by dice » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:20 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:
dice wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
Thanks for considering my perspective. He is among the top 5 in the East in Total points and Ppg.

While people will try to devalue scoring, its always more valuable than defense in a no defense league.

EFFICIENT scoring is certainly the most important thing to have in basketball, but lavine's efficiency is pretty average. and i don't have any reason to believe that the range of defensive impact across the league is any different than its been in the past


Defense has it value league wide but it’s unsustainable by the even the most elite defenders.

The barometer here though is for an allstar selection. Defense is an inexact metric and if you have to look at some obscure metrics to validate it for an allstar birth its totally reaching.

so we should go solely by defensive reputation when determining who is all-star worthy? or disregard defense altogether?
oldest/youngest (avg age) to win pazz and jop album of the year:

de la soul 19y-8m; sex pistols 21-4; e. costello 23-7; arrested devel 24-0; MJ 24-3; nirvana 24-7

bowie 69-0; dylan 65-3, 60-4, 56-4; lucinda williams 45-6; neil young/paul simon 44-10
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#72 » by IamSam » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:46 pm

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Is Zach making an "L" with his right hand? :lol:
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#73 » by Ice Man » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:47 pm

Nothing against Zach, I quite like him, but if we're going to take a high-scoring player on a bad team to be Chicago's representative, because the game is in Chicago, let's do it right. Let's take this guy, who is averaging his per-36 career high in points and assists.

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Select him, and the UC will blow up when he comes into the game.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#74 » by JimmyJammer » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:52 pm

Ice Man wrote:Nothing against Zach, I quite like him, but if we're going to take a high-scoring player on a bad team to be Chicago's representative, because the game is in Chicago, let's do it right. Let's take this guy, who is averaging his per-36 career high in points and assists.

Image

Select him, and the UC will blow up when he comes into the game.


Oh, hell no ! Once you are not wearing a Bulls jersey, you are on the enemy side. My priority is to see Zach first and foremost in the all-star game.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#75 » by JimmyJammer » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:56 pm

As far as Zach being a winner or loser, I will say yes he is a winner. He is a gifted athlete who is not happy as just being that. He works his ass off to improve all facets of his game. It's not his fault if the second, third and fourth most important players on the team have been major disappointments.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#76 » by madvillian » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:02 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
Ice Man wrote:To be honest, Zach remains a mystery. His rating with modern analytics is always much worse than his counting statistics, or even an eye test that notices that he's a high-mistake player. For example, his offensive rating on ESPN's real +/- table places him only about 30th in NBA guards. He's behind Patty MIlls, George Hill, and (gulp) Isaiah Thomas.

My initial reaction was well OK, it's hard to get high real +/- scores when playing on minus teams, but the second highest score for a guard, after Harden (they have Luka as a small forward), is Trae Young. And Derrick Rose's offensive score is well above Zach's, too.

So I don't know how to answer the "Is Zach a winner" question. He's a puzzling case. He looks like a winner to me the way he is playing this year, but his teams always lose and advanced analytics aren't supportive either.


It's because Zach is deficient in everything else that is not scoring. He won't be the reason the team wins but he can be a very nice scoring bonus for team wins. His best position to succeed is to let him be a gunner with someone else taking the "leading" responsibilities. Unfortunately, we don't have a player like that and I don't see how the bulls can aquire one soon.

As far as true "winners" their numbers usually always come out on the top end even on trash teams. Case in point Jimmy Butler on our trash bulls


Zach is a very rich man's THJR. If you had Zach on Dallas he'd be awesome. But on most teams Zach is barely a net positive.
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#77 » by cjbulls » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:09 pm

Does anyone think if Zach were traded for Middleton, VanVleet or Harris that the Bucks, Raptors or 76ers wouldn’t have a similar record to what they have now?

Some players will by accident always be stuck on losing teams. He’s not a winner or a loser, but just a player whose team can succeed or fail based on fit, just like 99% of all NBA players.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#78 » by HomoSapien » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:21 pm

How is Zach in the dunk contest not already a thing?
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#79 » by madvillian » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:27 pm

HomoSapien wrote:How is Zach in the dunk contest not already a thing?


Didn't he say he'd only do as part of all star weekend if he was in the game?
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.
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Re: Is Zach LaVine a Winner? 

Post#80 » by Ice Man » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:57 pm

JimmyJammer wrote:Oh, hell no ! Once you are not wearing a Bulls jersey, you are on the enemy side.


You don't have much company in that. The loudest cheers I've heard in the UC for a player during the past 2 years was for Rose. Then came Butler, then Zach. Also, Rose got the only MVP chant, to my knowledge.

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