PG: Lavine Machine

[Clocian]

I like how some bulls fans disregard context. How can the stats zach is putting up this season, and during this 13 game stretch be "empty stats"? Because we don't have a better record? It has nothing to do with the fact that three other starters, and the backup center are missing a good amount of time huh? Or that we have a coach in his first full season. Or the other offensive players who are not stepping up.

It really would be interesting to see what 2011 Rose would do on this team, because I think the nostalgia has yall mind clouded. But, we'll never know so it's moot talking about it.

I will say that sometimes I think bulls fans don't deserve the top players they get nowadays. Rose/Jimmy and now Zach. You wanted them out.

Whelp, if Zach wanted a trade, I can't even be upset at that, when you've been by far the best player on the team, giving it your all everyday, and fans still **** on you. Yet Lauri has some kind of shield that deflects any legit criticism and places the blame on others.

[wonderboy2]

I like to hear players perspective of other players. Kevin Love said that Zach Lavine is an all star on his way to becoming a superstar. Cedi Osman basically said the same thing. I take players opinion more seriously than any stat geek or analyst because they are the ones up close and having to guard and game plan for each other.

[MeloRoseNoah]

I like how some bulls fans disregard context. How can the stats zach is putting up this season, and during this 13 game stretch be "empty stats"? Because we don't have a better record? It has nothing to do with the fact that three other starters, and the backup center are missing a good amount of time huh? Or that we have a coach in his first full season. Or the other offensive players who are not stepping up.

It really would be interesting to see what 2011 Rose would do on this team, because I think the nostalgia has yall mind clouded. But, we'll never know so it's moot talking about it.

I will say that sometimes I think bulls fans don't deserve the top players they get nowadays. Rose/Jimmy and now Zach. You wanted them out.

Whelp, if Zach wanted a trade, I can't even be upset at that, when you've been by far the best player on the team, giving it your all everyday, and fans still **** on you. Yet Lauri has some kind of shield that deflects any legit criticism and places the blame on others.

Lauri shield is made up of soft Euros from the mother land.

As an American, I has been on his pathetic soft a$$ since the start of this season. This pelvic stress reaction time off is garbage and a testament to the underlying soft culture of this team.

Weak boy just needs a cortisone shot to his pelvis to cool down the inflammation.

User warned for his attacks

[TheFinishSniper]

Lot of stats Lavine have are empty, despite being efficient.

I used to feel that way about LaVine. Less so now. These days his team mostly loses because his teammates fail him, rather than Zach giving away with bad plays what he gains with good plays. I don't watch him and think "Brandon Jennings." Whereas when he was in Minnesota and early on the Bulls, I did.

I still feel about that way. As long Lavine score his and Bulls lose Ill feel same. Regardless of him scoring or dont Bulls lose. That's a fact. You can say his mates are bad, coach is terrible, front office is garbage, while yet that's all true he only difference maker against teams like Cavs.

I still dont feel he is impacting game enough despite those great stats. Those 10 rebounds and 8 assists just feel like 5 and 4 back in days and his 40 feels like 20 back in days. What I want to say his 40 arent Kawhi's 40 and his 8 assists arent Lebron's 8 assists. Lebron's 8 assists make his team go on run, Lavine's just make Lavine get his. If you cant notice that well we need to disagree.

[MrFortune3]

LaVine is awesome. Glad he's a Bull. Though I hate to see him doing so well and us not have a team worth a damn around him.

[DuckIII]

Lot of stats Lavine have are empty, despite being efficient.

I used to feel that way about LaVine. Less so now. These days his team mostly loses because his teammates fail him, rather than Zach giving away with bad plays what he gains with good plays. I don't watch him and think "Brandon Jennings." Whereas when he was in Minnesota and early on the Bulls, I did.

I still feel about that way. As long Lavine score his and Bulls lose Ill feel same. Regardless of him scoring or dont Bulls lose. That's a fact. You can say his mates are bad, coach is terrible, front office is garbage, while yet that's all true he only difference maker against teams like Cavs.

I still dont feel he is impacting game enough despite those great stats. Those 10 rebounds and 8 assists just feel like 5 and 4 back in days and his 40 feels like 20 back in days. What I want to say his 40 arent Kawhi's 40 and his 8 assists arent Lebron's 8 assists. Lebron's 8 assists make his team go on run, Lavine's just make Lavine get his. If you cant notice that well we need to disagree.

Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Garnett - I could make this list insanely long - have all been on bad teams that missed the playoffs.

I’m not equating Lavine with them. But I am saying that team results are not the defining criteria for how good and valuable a player is.

[WindyCityBorn]

On a quick look, I don't think Rose or Butler ever averaged 30 per game for a 13-game stretch. It looks as if they topped out at about 28. But only an eyeball test.

Rose is still better player, maybe worse scorer. But Rose played in era of less spacing, when defense still existed and Thibs basketball (1vs5) was enough to win.

Lot of stats Lavine have are empty, despite being efficient. They feel empty. Good enough to beat worst teams, but moment he shares court with good team you feel he is not even close being best player on the floor despite putting and ending with amazing numbers.

This isn't true any more.

[Southpaw]

Man Lavine has been playing exceptionally well lately. Making a great case to being an All-star, and he deserves it. He's been carrying our team the whole season.

[FranchisePlayer]

I like how some bulls fans disregard context. How can the stats zach is putting up this season, and during this 13 game stretch be "empty stats"?

You do? I never like anyone disregarding context. Kidding aside...

What will be interesting to see is if Lavine machine keeps pounding these numbers after ASG, was he there or not, and maybe trade deadline. He's been open about it, ASG motivates him, primary goal for this year. Maybe getting to a better team has started to sound as a good idea recently.

This is not his contract year and he knows this team won't be in the playoffs and once the deadline closes and he's stuck with the Bulls...so what will be his motivation for the remaining games? Call me unsurprised if his numbers start to plummet after the 16th of February...

[PaKii94]

LaVine's playing well, but he's not even close to MVP Rose, or some of Butler's peak years.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Zach's last 13 games:

36.3 Min
30.3 Pts
49.7% FG
38.0% 3pt (8.3 att/game)
81.3% FT (6.2 att/game)
.567 eFG%
.606 TS%
5.6 Reb
3.8 Ast
1.7 Stl

Outside of assists, MVP Rose wasn't really very close to any of those numbers:

37.4 Min
25.0 Pts
44.5% FG
33.2% 3pt (4.8 att/game)
85.8% FT (6.9 att/game)
.485 eFG%
.550 TS%
4.1 Reb
7.7 Ast
1.0 Stl

Preach, my brother. No Bulls player since Michael Jordan has had a 13-game stretch like this. The efficiency is ridiculous on a team where he is the first, the second and the third option. How about those steals numbers? He is one of the top in the East in that Stat. That's eggs on the face of many fans here who said that he couldn't do it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/gamelog/2017/#384-397-sum:pgl_basic


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/gamelog-advanced/2017/#384-397-sum:pgl_advanced

Saying this is the best stretch ever by a Bull since Jordan is blasphemous. Points ain't everything.


I will acknowledge Lavine has played a lot better in the last 13 games... If we had that type of play (not necessarily the volume) from the beginning of the season and not during the last all star voting push, the bulls record would look a lot different and Lavine would have been a shoe in

[CBS7]

Lavine's advanced stats keep catching up to his raw numbers, too. His advanced stats (VORP, BPM, WS/48) as a whole look better than a lot of allstars, including guys like Siakam, Mitchell, Beal, CJ, Tatum, Westbrook, etc.

Lack of wins will prevent him from getting in IMO, but he's close. I think he deserves it more than Beal, but probably not as much as Lowry/Simmons.

[ZOMG]

Zach's last 13 games:

36.3 Min
30.3 Pts
49.7% FG
38.0% 3pt (8.3 att/game)
81.3% FT (6.2 att/game)
.567 eFG%
.606 TS%
5.6 Reb
3.8 Ast
1.7 Stl

Outside of assists, MVP Rose wasn't really very close to any of those numbers:

37.4 Min
25.0 Pts
44.5% FG
33.2% 3pt (4.8 att/game)
85.8% FT (6.9 att/game)
.485 eFG%
.550 TS%
4.1 Reb
7.7 Ast
1.0 Stl

Preach, my brother. No Bulls player since Michael Jordan has had a 13-game stretch like this. The efficiency is ridiculous on a team where he is the first, the second and the third option. How about those steals numbers? He is one of the top in the East in that Stat. That's eggs on the face of many fans here who said that he couldn't do it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/gamelog/2017/#384-397-sum:pgl_basic


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/gamelog-advanced/2017/#384-397-sum:pgl_advanced

Saying this is the best stretch ever by a Bulls is blasphemous. Points ain't everything.


I will acknowledge Lavine has played a lot better in the last 13 games... If we had that type of play (not necessarily the volume) from the beginning of the season and not during the last all star voting push, the bulls record would look a lot different and Lavine would have been a shoe in

People are just clutching at straws and seeing hope where there is none. Denial is completely natural. It's SO hard to face another wasted season. At least LaVine is a "bright spot", right?

Well. Even Zach's biggest fans know, deep down, that he's not a top 3 option on a championship contender. They also must know - and this is the real killer - that despite all his gaudy stats and the lip service he gets from players in interviews, All Stars are not exactly falling over themselves to team up with LaVine. He's seen as a gunner with gigantic usage in a horrible team. That's not something any winner is gonna easily slot into.

If Zach wants to play with better teammates, he needs to ask for a trade. At that point we'll truly see what he's worth. And some people are in for a shock.

[ZOMG]

I used to feel that way about LaVine. Less so now. These days his team mostly loses because his teammates fail him, rather than Zach giving away with bad plays what he gains with good plays. I don't watch him and think "Brandon Jennings." Whereas when he was in Minnesota and early on the Bulls, I did.

I still feel about that way. As long Lavine score his and Bulls lose Ill feel same. Regardless of him scoring or dont Bulls lose. That's a fact. You can say his mates are bad, coach is terrible, front office is garbage, while yet that's all true he only difference maker against teams like Cavs.

I still dont feel he is impacting game enough despite those great stats. Those 10 rebounds and 8 assists just feel like 5 and 4 back in days and his 40 feels like 20 back in days. What I want to say his 40 arent Kawhi's 40 and his 8 assists arent Lebron's 8 assists. Lebron's 8 assists make his team go on run, Lavine's just make Lavine get his. If you cant notice that well we need to disagree.

Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Garnett - I could make this list insanely long - have all been on bad teams that missed the playoffs.

I’m not equating Lavine with them. But I am saying that team results are not the defining criteria for how good and valuable a player is.

It's easy to (kind of) agree with that. But what is "value" in a vacuum? If it doesn't bring wins, doesn't improve the rest of the team, doesn't put butts in seats, doesn't lure quality free agents OR even work as a trade asset, is it really value?

I ask this in full seriousness.

[ZOMG]

I like to hear players perspective of other players. Kevin Love said that Zach Lavine is an all star on his way to becoming a superstar. Cedi Osman basically said the same thing. I take players opinion more seriously than any stat geek or analyst because they are the ones up close and having to guard and game plan for each other.

Half the time, players (current and ex) are full of s**t. They're unreliable narrators because their own roles, past accomplishments and egos affect everything they say.

Take someone like Kendrick Perkins - the media hangs on to his every word as if he's some basketball oracle. To me, he doesn't really have anything to say despite talking non-stop. I'd much rather listen to Zach Lowe.

Perk, of course, wasn't know for his skills when he played. But the pro basketball media landscape is full of retired star players who act like gatekeepers to this fraternity of dudes who can average 25+ in the NBA. You always hear "game recognizes game"... it could just as well be "ballhog recognizes ballhog". These guys can't stop stroking their own egos by giving props to scorer types, no matter how much they keep losing.

[CBS7]

A neutral fan on the GB posted this, not sure where he got the stats from though.

I guess I'm in the minority on this one. I think the dude is a stud and I don't view his stats as empty stats at all. It's not like he's this super ball dominant player either. 4.3 seconds per possession and 3.1 dribbles per touch ain't crazy at all. That means he can easily play as your #2 guy and still put up the same production. Also I don't think he's been bad defensively either this year. Don't get me wrong I don't think he's been great, but I think he's been about average to below average, either way doesn't hurt his team all that much to the point where his offense is useless.

Suggests he'd be easy-ish to slot in next to a superior offensive option.

[PaKii94]

I like to hear players perspective of other players. Kevin Love said that Zach Lavine is an all star on his way to becoming a superstar. Cedi Osman basically said the same thing. I take players opinion more seriously than any stat geek or analyst because they are the ones up close and having to guard and game plan for each other.

Half the time, players (current and ex) are full of s**t. They're unreliable narrators because their own roles, past accomplishments and egos affect everything they say.

Take someone like Kendrick Perkins - the media hangs on to his every word as if he's some basketball oracle. To me, he doesn't really have anything to say despite talking non-stop. I'd much rather listen to Zach Lowe.

Perk, of course, wasn't know for his skills when he played. But the pro basketball media landscape is full of retired star players who act like gatekeepers to this fraternity of dudes who can average 25+ in the NBA. You always hear "game recognizes game"... it could just as well be "ballhog recognizes ballhog". These guys can't stop stroking their own egos by giving props to scorer types, no matter how much they keep losing.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/magic-johnsons-old-tweets-reveal-some-pretty-questionable-player-evaluation-skills/

[Proven_Winner]

I like to hear players perspective of other players. Kevin Love said that Zach Lavine is an all star on his way to becoming a superstar. Cedi Osman basically said the same thing. I take players opinion more seriously than any stat geek or analyst because they are the ones up close and having to guard and game plan for each other.

Half the time, players (current and ex) are full of s**t. They're unreliable narrators because their own roles, past accomplishments and egos affect everything they say.

Take someone like Kendrick Perkins - the media hangs on to his every word as if he's some basketball oracle. To me, he doesn't really have anything to say despite talking non-stop. I'd much rather listen to Zach Lowe.

Perk, of course, wasn't know for his skills when he played. But the pro basketball media landscape is full of retired star players who act like gatekeepers to this fraternity of dudes who can average 25+ in the NBA. You always hear "game recognizes game"... it could just as well be "ballhog recognizes ballhog". These guys can't stop stroking their own egos by giving props to scorer types, no matter how much they keep losing.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/magic-johnsons-old-tweets-reveal-some-pretty-questionable-player-evaluation-skills/

Now compare his misses to most of this bird on any player ever. Remember when Derrick was done and trash and should retire? Player evaluations are easily more reliable then a bunch of fans who don’t play and flip sides at the drop of a dime.

[Chi town]

It’s too bad for Lavine. He’s really developing into a heck of a player and we just don’t have a damn thing for him to play off of. Hopefully we can develop a roster before we have to Butler him just so we can start over.

If this Lavine had what Jimmy had we’d be in the playoffs.

Imagine Lavine w vet Wade, Rondo, and Taj. Rondo and Wade sucked but they knew how to win.

[SfBull]

LaVine's playing well, but he's not even close to MVP Rose, or some of Butler's peak years.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Zach's last 13 games:

36.3 Min
30.3 Pts
49.7% FG
38.0% 3pt (8.3 att/game)
81.3% FT (6.2 att/game)
.567 eFG%
.606 TS%
5.6 Reb
3.8 Ast
1.7 Stl

Outside of assists, MVP Rose wasn't really very close to any of those numbers:

37.4 Min
25.0 Pts
44.5% FG
33.2% 3pt (4.8 att/game)
85.8% FT (6.9 att/game)
.485 eFG%
.550 TS%
4.1 Reb
7.7 Ast
1.0 Stl

you also have to realize the nba is so much easier for offensive players now than it was 10 years ago, 2011 drose would be ridiculous in todays game

Just imagine how many points Jordan would make by the current rules when refs whistle at a minimum contact.

[SfBull]

Derrick Rose isn’t a star in 2019 & Drummond is barely a star. The Pistons stink because those two guys are their leaders. Why would the Bulls give up young talent with high upside for two established veterans who aren’t going to get any better? Drummond stinks. Do you watch the Pistons play? They really suck, and he’s a really dumb player. No one would be surprised to see Derrick Rose retire soon. I honestly think that’d be the worst possible move for the Bulls to make, and no one would be shocked if Lauri/White/Carter became winning star players in a few years.

Sorry to offend your basketball senses. It seems you're missing your own hype about Lavine all of a sudden.

1) Drummond is a 26 year old two-time All-Star ... and his numbers across the board this year are as good/better than both of those two years. He is absolutely a star. Headed towards his 4th rebounding title (again, only 26 years old). He lead the league in defensive win shares the last two years. Someone jump all over me if you think I'm wrong about his advanced metrics, but everything I can see in his advanced metrics points to a star defensive performer. (Mind you, he's the picture of reliability, averaging 80+ GP last 6 seasons)

2) Drummond is not a superstar. Drummond is never going to LEAD a team to success. They are different players in many ways (especially eye test), but Drummond and Gobert are both incredible NBA talents at their position, but could never have the impact/dominance offensively to be a team MVP/leader. Drummond has played on Pistons teams most his career where he's largely had to be the best player (hence why they never go anywhere)

3) I watch the Pistons play regularly actually, have commented a number of times in the Around the NBA thread. I watch because Derrick Rose is playing really beautiful basketball. He's not a superstar, he doesn't have the wild athleticism and burst of his younger days. But he's playing with great IQ, great confidence, and a level of composure on the ball that is second only to the NBA's stars. Is he a star, no. Is he in the process of making his case again, I subjectively think so (but it is def a stretch to assert outright he is a star all of a sudden again).

4) Derrick Rose is one of the most reliable shot makers in basketball right now. He is hitting a ridiculous 54% from 2P, a solid 5% higher than his previous career best. Amongst "Guards" with 1,000+ minutes, that's behind only Luka, Simmons, James, Booker, CP3! Luka, Simmons, and James take less than 15% of FGA from 10-3P range (so largely skewed towards layups and dunks). Rose is takin 26% of shots from that range, and hitting at ~46% in that range (Chris Paul similar FGA, but 50+%, Booker around 48%)

6) No one, NO ONE is talking about Rose and Drummond like they are magic with the Pistons. But ya know, in all those Pistons games I've watched, I haven't seen Lavine out there with them. Rose is not a lead scorer. Drummond is not a go to lead scorer. Lavine can absolutely be a lead scorer. Drummond covers so many of Lauri's deficiencies, and Rose covers a number of Lavine's deficiencies. It's a team game mate, Drummond and Rose wouldn't get traded to Bulls and then go out and play with the Pistons roster still. Think about their role with Lavine and couple other current pieces.

Do I think Drummond is worth a max, I'm not sure, and that's a legit hangup for this trade. But Lavine is so dang good. WCJ/Lauri/White, they are not and never gonna be enough to really rock with Lavine. Lavine is hitting his prime and needs some bonafide pieces ASAP. Drummond and Rose are feasible pull out there at this exact minutes and I think Lavine would be grinning ear to ear to have some talent of that level and experience with him finally.

(sorry all for the sidetrack on trade ideas ... this thread is and should be all about Lavine, I'll keep rest of comments to his brilliance tonight!!!)

Drummond is overrssted trash. He does not defend and cannot shot. Plus he is waiting to get maxed out. No thanx to him.

He's much better than any of our bigs.