Kobe Bryant Dies In Helicopter Crash

[dumbell78]

Umm, at the risk of sounding incredibly ignorant, since when did Kobe admit to rape? I thought he settled a lawsuit without admitting guilt?

I don't want to belabor the point because the man is dead, so just to factually answer your question:

He apologized to her and said he now understands that she didn't consent. If she didn't consent, then he raped her. It doesn't matter whether he thought it was consensual or not in terms of whether he raped her or didn't.

To me, he admits rape but doesn't admit guilt (if that makes sense).

"First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman
involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this
year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only
imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to
her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and
supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

"I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives
of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has
agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil
case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was
consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this
incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery,
listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now
understand how she feels that she did not consent to this
encounter.

Doug! That statement does not at all say that he “now understands she didn’t consent.”

Come on. What he said is he thinks she did consent, but accepts that she believes her own version of the story. That is massively different than him acknowledging she did not consent. It was a carefully worded document issued as part of a settlement.

And I don’t intend to debate this. But I followed this case closely, both as a basketball fan and as a lawyer, and this is a case of an extortionist rape allegation.

The shame isn’t that she had to live with it. It’s that he had to, and his family will relive it again because now it’s being brought up all over social media.

That will end my contribution to this discussion.

My wife is a lawyer and we have spoken about this "incident" at length. Just showed her this, and she pretty much agrees with you. Like you, I agree its basically extortion and don't want to talk about it anymore. There are 3 girls in LA that just lost a dad and countless lives have been shattered because of this accident.

[HomoSapien]

Duck's interpretation of Kobe's statement is right. He clearly isn't admitting anything and it's carefully worded to state that he accepts that they both have different versions of the event and he accepts that she doesn't think she consented. It's surprising to me that so many are going around saying he admitted to rape -- that clearly never happened. Since this statement was approved by her lawyers, you can almost surmise that she's essentially agreeing that even though she didn't consent she accepts that Kobe thinks she did. If you read her police interview she said that the kissing was consensual, so if that's true it's not the hardest thing in the world to imagine a scenario where she was just consenting to kissing and then he escalated things sexually too fast. To be clear, I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying I can see how this could happen (though admittedly her description of how rough he got is chilling and not a normal sexual encounter with someone you've just met).

That said, I don't know how anyone could definitively say what happened in this situation. All we know is that the case never went to trial and at the end of the day everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Because of that, I don't see the value of trying to label him as a rapist. He's a public figure and at the end of the day, that chapter will always be part of his full legacy, but none of us know whether he is or not.

[dice]

Duck's interpretation of Kobe's statement is right, IMO. He clearly isn't admitting anything and it's as carefully worded to state that he accepts that they both have different versions of the event and he accepts that she doesn't think she consented. Since this statement was approved by her lawyers, you can almost surmise that she's essentially agreeing that even though she didn't consent she accepts that Kobe thinks she did.

not necessarily. it may just be the strongest statement that her lawyers were able to negotiate

If you read her police interview she said that the kissing was consensual, so if that's true it's not the hardest thing in the world to imagine a scenario where she was just consenting to kissing and then he escalated things sexually too fast.

or she consented to sex and he got too aggressive or she changed her mind

That said, I don't know how anyone could definitively say what happened in this situation. All we know is that the case never went to trial and at the end of the day everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Because of that, I don't see the value of trying to label him as a rapist. He's a public figure and at the end of the day, that chapter will always be part of his full legacy, but none of us know whether he is or not.

agreed. it's all speculation. but in my opinion, to assume extortion (itself a crime that one should be presumed innocent of until proven guilty) is even more outlandish than to assume rape

[Hold That]

Ok let’s say everything you say is true. What’s the point in bringing up his one and only mishap in 20+ years of being in the public eye?

Maybe people whom have been affected by rape don't like seeing a rapist lionized and treated like a hero and think its actually pretty disgusting and he's an awful human being and have every right to put out that opinion.

Also, a quick google search will turn up that he was a serial cheater on his wife whom claimed that he had slept with 105 different women during their marriage. Even if her claim is stretched (which seems likely), do you think that Kobe was a faithful husband after he got caught raping someone? What does that teach his daughters / wife?

People keep saying one mistake, but being a serial cheater on your spouse isn't one mistake. Only one of his mistakes was a felony grade mistake.

You’re an intelligent man. So why are you taking “an unnamed source of a friend of Vanessa told a tabloid” as fact? That’s the source in your quick google search.. Why is it that making one mistake in your life qualifies you as a horrible human being? People who talk like this better be the second coming of Jesus and without flaw. She followed a married man alone to his hotel bedroom to just sit and talk about life and games I suppose.. I don’t know what happened in that room, Kobe says he didn’t rape her she says he did. From what I’ve heard is that she originally consented and mid way she reneged but Kobe kept going assuming she was bsing.. dna showed no forcible entry and also reveled other dna on her underwear.. even if a woman says no in the midway point and you keep going that’s rape to me.. even if you’ve penetrated by then. I’m assuming that’s what happened and Kobe indirectly admitted guilt.

Does this make him a horrible human being? No. You don’t need jail to get rehabilitated. He had started supporting tons of women’s movements and sports trying to internally right his wrongs.. his death is revealing a lot of good that he did, and also many are saying he always had a deal that he wanted no PR.. Kobe was changing for himself and not to impress people like yourself who feel one mistake and gossip columns make you a horrible person.. it’s weird how life works that he wound up having 4 girls in which made him appreciate women more and become more of a advocate for women.. no I don’t think Kobe is a monster or horrible nor will I take some gossip column from the corners of the internet that has a source “Vanessa friend” said so as fact.. it’s called click bait, and blogs creating falsehoods so people like yourself will take this as truth in hopes to frequent their site for more celebrity bs gossip.

[HomoSapien]

agreed. it's all speculation. but in my opinion, to assume extortion (itself a crime that one should be presumed innocent of until proven guilty) is even more outlandish than to assume rape

I agree. None of us know what happened, so trying to pin her as an extortionist to me isn't any different than claiming he's a rapist.

[HomoSapien]

... dna showed no forcible entry and also reveled other dna on her underwear.. even if a woman says no in the midway point and you keep going that’s rape to me.. even if you’ve penetrated by then. I’m assuming that’s what happened and Kobe indirectly admitted guilt.

I believe the bolded is incorrect. From my understanding, a nurse did note some vaginal trauma but Kobe's lawyers argued that that trauma could be consistent with just having sex twice in a short period amount of time which is something she admitted had happened.

[Susan]

Not getting into the other stuff but TNT and Shaq was just on the air today.

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Read on Twitter

[Am2626]

Ok let’s say everything you say is true. What’s the point in bringing up his one and only mishap in 20+ years of being in the public eye?

Maybe people whom have been affected by rape don't like seeing a rapist lionized and treated like a hero and think its actually pretty disgusting and he's an awful human being and have every right to put out that opinion.

Also, a quick google search will turn up that he was a serial cheater on his wife whom claimed that he had slept with 105 different women during their marriage. Even if her claim is stretched (which seems likely), do you think that Kobe was a faithful husband after he got caught raping someone? What does that teach his daughters / wife?

People keep saying one mistake, but being a serial cheater on your spouse isn't one mistake. Only one of his mistakes was a felony grade mistake.

The serial cheating thing is difficult but that's a completely different level than forced rape. Players get into the league and then have a tremendous amount of pressure on them to have a significant other of the opposite sex. Kobe was like, 22 when he got married. Huge mistake but one a LOT of professionals make. Even then, he seemed to be a doting father who loved his kids. Should he regret their existence? Would still be alive if it wasn't for them. The butterfly effects of everything are hard to comprehend.

Regardless, the tweet above is heart wrenching. Real people are complex. They aren't as great as their best moments and they aren't as bad as their worst.

Michael Jordan along with many professional athletes are/were serial cheaters. Do people here think differently about him because of that? We also don’t know if Kobe raped that woman. We know that she had sex with another man after the Kobe incident and there were text messages from her bragging about getting money from him. How do we not know that she was trying to extort money from him? False accusations do happen. Have you seen the movie about Brian Banks? That woman ruined his life. It’s innocent until proven guilty. Not that other way around. In this tragedy 3 teenage girls and others lost their lives. Now is not the time and place to debate the Kobe sexual assault case.

[GetBuLLish]

Anyone who actually believes in the rape story should read all this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lakers/comments/82de6s/because_of_the_recent_flooding_of_kobes_rape/

[League Circles]

As best as I can find in a quick google search is that terms of the settlement were never made public, but estimates were like 2 million, which means nothing.

Honestly Kobe might have gave up very little in the settlement. Possibly just agreeing to not countersue, make the neutral save face for all statement, and maybe pay her legal fees. I believe the statement actually says that she's receiving no money.

[DuckIII]

He got exactly what he needed: freedom from being tried and convicted of a being black man raping a blonde white girl in Colorado.

race? seriously? as you should know, both as a lawyer and a general cultural observer (OJ, anybody?), fame and money trumps race every damn day of the week. and kobe was not the stereotypical angry black athlete thug. he had a sterling public reputation as a cultured individual

Don’t be naive, dice. OJ had 8 black jurors in a major metropolitan area and two of them held up the black power fist at verdict.

Eagle County is in rural, conservative Colorado with a demographic that is 87% white and 0.3% black.

Pay some cash or roll the dice was probably a difficult decision for a few days, but on the eve of trial a no brainer.

[WestsideResider]

Virtue signaling ruined the internet.

RIP Kobe & Gianna.

[DuckIII]

I believe the statement actually says that she's receiving no money.

You have to read lawyer-prepared statements very carefully. It does not say she is receiving no money. It says she “has received no money.” That is a statement of past and present fact. If he literally read the statement and immediately turned and handed her a bag overflowing with $100 bills, the statement would still be true. It also says nothing about an agreement to pay in the future.

Don’t overthink it. Or think harder. This was the cost of doing business to eliminate all risk of a falsehood rape conviction.

[League Circles]

I believe the statement actually says that she's receiving no money.

You have to read lawyer-prepared statements very carefully. It does not say she is receiving no money. It says she “has received no money.” That is a statement of past and present fact. If he literally read the statement and immediately turned and handed her a bad overflowing with $100 bills, the statement would still be true. It also says nothing about an agreement to pay in the future.

Don’t overthink it. Or think harder. This was the cost of doing business to eliminate all risk of a falsehood rape conviction.

Yes, nice insight. My other point about him possibly not paying her much may be true though right? I'm picturing the possibility of his likely stellar legal team making her lawyer realize how bad their case was, indicating the extent to which they'll countersue and the plausibility that they win, and negotiating something along the lines of:

1. Neutral save face for all statement made to public
2. Agreement never to countersue or to slander her in any way (or then be subject to fine of x million or whatever)
3. Pay all her legal fees

Plausible or no?

[GetBuLLish]

I believe the statement actually says that she's receiving no money.

You have to read lawyer-prepared statements very carefully. It does not say she is receiving no money. It says she “has received no money.” That is a statement of past and present fact. If he literally read the statement and immediately turned and handed her a bad overflowing with $100 bills, the statement would still be true. It also says nothing about an agreement to pay in the future.

Don’t overthink it. Or think harder. This was the cost of doing business to eliminate all risk of a falsehood rape conviction.

Yes, nice insight. My other point about him possibly not paying her much may be true though right? I'm picturing the possibility of his likely stellar legal team making her lawyer realize how bad their case was, indicating the extent to which they'll countersue and the plausibility that they win, and negotiating something along the lines of:

1. Neutral save face for all statement made to public
2. Agreement never to countersue or to slander her in any way (or then be subject to fine of x million or whatever)
3. Pay all her legal fees

Plausible or no?

The criminal case was crumbling at the time the prosecution dropped it. The judge had ruled evidence of another man's semen from less than 24 hours after the incident with Kobe would be admissible at trial. Not only was this on its face bad for the prosecution, but it was also inconsistent with the accuser's prior statements that she had sex with someone only before the incident.

Apart from that, it was revealed that the accuser admitted to making false statements to the cops, including a lie that Kobe made her clean her face after the alleged rape.

But even though things were looking good for the defense, Kobe still faced tremendous risk just by virtue of the fact that a guilty verdict would mean imprisonment. On top of that, even if he won the criminal case, the accuser would still almost certainly file a civil suit, which would last another number of years.

All in all, it made complete sense for Kobe to settle. And his settlement (and statement) have no relevance to whether he was actually guilty.

Nearly everything Dice has said in this thread is just untrue.

[DuckIII]

I believe the statement actually says that she's receiving no money.

You have to read lawyer-prepared statements very carefully. It does not say she is receiving no money. It says she “has received no money.” That is a statement of past and present fact. If he literally read the statement and immediately turned and handed her a bad overflowing with $100 bills, the statement would still be true. It also says nothing about an agreement to pay in the future.

Don’t overthink it. Or think harder. This was the cost of doing business to eliminate all risk of a falsehood rape conviction.

Yes, nice insight. My other point about him possibly not paying her much may be true though right? I'm picturing the possibility of his likely stellar legal team making her lawyer realize how bad their case was, indicating the extent to which they'll countersue and the plausibility that they win, and negotiating something along the lines of:

1. Neutral save face for all statement made to public
2. Agreement never to countersue or to slander her in any way (or then be subject to fine of x million or whatever)
3. Pay all her legal fees

Plausible or no?

Not very plausible, no. I’d guess she got at least very low 7 figures. But I’d be guessing of course.

[Clocian]

Not getting into the other stuff but TNT and Shaq was just on the air today.

Read on Twitter

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Watch on YouTube

Just finished watching the Inside the NBA tribute with the crew. Absolutely heartbreaking

[Hold That]

The shame isn’t that she had to live with it. It’s that he had to

what the actual ****

That will end my contribution to this discussion.

thank christ

Comment completely went over your head.

Nobody shames a victim, we sympathize with them.

We shame and look at disgust of the victimizer. That’s what Duck was basically saying

[dice]

He got exactly what he needed: freedom from being tried and convicted of a being black man raping a blonde white girl in Colorado.

race? seriously? as you should know, both as a lawyer and a general cultural observer (OJ, anybody?), fame and money trumps race every damn day of the week. and kobe was not the stereotypical angry black athlete thug. he had a sterling public reputation as a cultured individual

Don’t be naive, dice. OJ had 8 black jurors in a major metropolitan area and two of them held up the black power fist at verdict.

Eagle County is in rural, conservative Colorado with a demographic that is 87% white and 0.3% black.

many of whom are kobe bryant fans. and know who white conservatives don't tend to respect? women perceived as being promiscuous. or worse, white women who sleep with black men. on the other side of the coin, "boys will be boys." again, kobe bryant the superstar never got treated like an ordinary black man. not by a rural colorado mile

Pay some cash or roll the dice was probably a difficult decision for a few days, but on the eve of trial a no brainer.

as you well know, the cash was immaterial to the decision. it was entirely about public reputation and personal stress

an apology was solicited as part of the settlement. that does not suggest cash grab. nor, by the way, does whatever cash she got remotely make up for the inevitable scrutiny, shame and harassment that she received in exchange. in order for extortion to be a viable theory, 3 things must be true:

1) the woman's priorities in life are completely warped, and
2) kobe was capable of extraordinary detachment from normal emotions, and
3) the woman didn't mind being strangled to the point of bruising during sex

all are, of course, possible. but they are also increasingly unlikely. for anybody to ASSUME all to be true (based on no evidence whatsoever) strikes me as a blatant attempt to reconcile reality with preconceived notions

if the aborted criminal trial was part of some grand scheme to get money in a subsequent civil trial, it's quite a stretch to believe that the prosecution team was in on it given the expense and time involved

[dice]

You have to read lawyer-prepared statements very carefully. It does not say she is receiving no money. It says she “has received no money.” That is a statement of past and present fact. If he literally read the statement and immediately turned and handed her a bad overflowing with $100 bills, the statement would still be true. It also says nothing about an agreement to pay in the future.

Don’t overthink it. Or think harder. This was the cost of doing business to eliminate all risk of a falsehood rape conviction.

Yes, nice insight. My other point about him possibly not paying her much may be true though right? I'm picturing the possibility of his likely stellar legal team making her lawyer realize how bad their case was, indicating the extent to which they'll countersue and the plausibility that they win, and negotiating something along the lines of:

1. Neutral save face for all statement made to public
2. Agreement never to countersue or to slander her in any way (or then be subject to fine of x million or whatever)
3. Pay all her legal fees

Plausible or no?

The criminal case was crumbling at the time the prosecution dropped it. The judge had ruled evidence of another man's semen from less than 24 hours after the incident with Kobe would be admissible at trial. Not only was this on its face bad for the prosecution, but it was also inconsistent with the accuser's prior statements that she had sex with someone only before the incident.

Apart from that, it was revealed that the accuser admitted to make false statements to the cops, including a lie that Kobe made her clean her face after the alleged rape.

But even though things were looking good for the defense, Kobe still faced tremendous risk just by virtue of the fact that a guilty verdict would mean imprisonment. On top of that, even if he won the criminal case, the accuser would still almost certainly file a civil suit, which would last another number of years.

All in all, it made complete sense for Kobe to settle. And his settlement (and statement) have no relevance to whether he was actually guilty.

Nearly everything Dice has said in this thread is just untrue.

you just cherry picked every piece of evidence that favored the defense (some without context) and left out every piece that favored the prosecution, much of which was damning. you should be ashamed of yourself

the lies she told the cops were immaterial and very possibly stress-induced. and she stated that rather than do a load of laundry on her way to be tested, she grabbed some old underwear out of the laundry hamper, which happened to contain evidence of a prior sexual encounter. which makes a hell of a lot more sense than having sex with a different guy before going to submit to a rape kit

she also confided in a friend at the hotel immediately after the incident, who later told authorities that she seemed very upset. fiendishly laying the groundwork for the cash grab?